Problem with my stroke?

S

skeptic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First post, but I've tried to read a bunch. Been a month or two since I was last on here looking for ideas on my problem, but nothing I've tried is helping.

short version:
I go through periods where I miss firm stop/draw shots to the right and firm follow shots to the left. Maybe a full session/night, maybe 5 or 10 shots, maybe just the occasional flier. When I miss these it appears to me that I am hitting the ball off-center missing the shot due to squirt.


I have a recurring problem where I miss stop/draw shots to the right and follow shots to the left. It's not an aiming problem, I'm hitting the cue on one side or the other. My standard test is a straight shot about 3/4 the length of the table diagonally with the object ball roughly half way between cue and pocket where I shoot a stop/draw show with medium+ power. On a given day I may start out missing 5 in a row all to the right all by almost the same amount, then pocket 5 or 10, then back to missing the same way, etc. Sometimes I'll get a really bad miss on a draw shot, again to the right. Placing an object ball about a foot from the cue and just hitting a straight shot against a rail, same thing. Cue often will come off to the left with side spin telling me I hit the right side of the cue.

Just to make sure I'm not imagining things I just did the standard cue on the spot, hit the queue straight to the far end, and try to get the cue to come back to my cue tip. Follow shots had left english, draw shots had right english every time.

I've tried changing my grip from holding between thumb and finger tips to cradling it so loose it slides a bit as I shoot to tight (which I'd never want to do). I've tried making sure my upper arm doesn't move, doing the pendulum thing. I've allowed lots of arm and shoulder movement (I know, bad). Standing up higher, bending down lower, shifting weight over the cue more, different foot positions, slow back swing, pause during back swing, more follow through, less follow through, quick jabs (I know, bad), tight wrist, loose wrist trying to "throw" the cue at the ball...

I don't have access to a video recorder or I'd be recording myself and looking for clues. I have tried looking back to see where my arm is and if it's straight up and down. I've tried freezing after the follow through to see if it's straight. I've tried everything I can think of and tried a number of tips and suggestions I found here.

I'm really at a loss. I'd love a quick fix, but honestly I'd rather know what I'm doing to cause this then work on that problem.
 
you should check where you're tip is going before you stroke the ball. you need to set up some sort of pre shot routine to check exactly what you're doing before you do it

i'd schedule a class with an instructor if i was you. it helped me out
 
I do check where the tip is lined up to the cue. Sometimes only a few quick warm-up strokes, other times I've done a bunch, watching to see if the tip is coming in at an angle or moving around... Basically, I've tried to be very careful about lining up the cue tip while trying to figure this out. I try to stick to a pre-shot routine, although I've been changing it around trying to get this sorted. Not changing it every shot, but try one routine for an hour or a few days, then try something different. Still manage to get into the groove of stroking off center for a while, then it goes away and I'm fine for some unknown amount of time.

The symptoms sound like my forearm is not perpendicular to the ground and my hand is swinging out a bit. Possibly subconsciously dropping my hand for a follow shot (raising the tip up and left) or raising it for draw (tip going down and to the right). If so I don't feel it, none of my attempts to fix it have done anything, and when I pause and look everything seem straight.

What kills me is the problem comes and goes, and I have no clue what I'm doing different and they all feel the same.

Paying for a class with an instructor just isn't in the cards right now.
 
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So many possibilities, it is almost impossible to diagnose on a forum. It could be in your alignment, that causes you to adjust your stroke. It could be in your wrist, giving the cue a little twist during the stroke, Your grip may not be consistent throughout your entire stroke.
The first trick is to know what is right. You suggested you try to use a pendilum stroke. Do you have a consistent home position for your grip hand? You have to establish your perfect straight stroke, before you can identify what is causing you to deviate from it. Once you know what it is supposed to feel like, it becomes much easier to identify the problems.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
So many possibilities, it is almost impossible to diagnose on a forum.
Click to expand...
Ya, I understand. I'm just looking for ways to self-diagnose the problem, if that's even possible.
It could be in your alignment, that causes you to adjust your stroke. It could be in your wrist, giving the cue a little twist during the stroke, Your grip may not be consistent throughout your entire stroke.
Click to expand...
I know for sure that I occasionally twist my wrist or tighten my grip during the stroke. I can feel it when I do this though. Maybe I do it more subtly when I'm in a "miss groove" and don't realize it?
The first trick is to know what is right. You suggested you try to use a pendilum stroke. Do you have a consistent home position for your grip hand? You have to establish your perfect straight stroke, before you can identify what is causing you to deviate from it. Once you know what it is supposed to feel like, it becomes much easier to identify the problems.

Steve
Click to expand...

I guess that's the real problem. I can be shooting straight and all is good, then start missing like I described. Going through the same pre-shot routine, making sure I'm lined up right, same grip on cue in same place on the cue, and it feels the same.

I've asked others to watch, but lets face it, they are not instructors and don't know what to look for. I know a qualified instructor would do me worlds of good, but I've had a lot of big expenses lately and the wife would kill me if I "wasted" money on something like this.

I have a pool table at home so I can spend time doing any kind drill or experiment. However, I've come to the conclusion that no amount of practice or drill is going to do me any good if my fundamentals are off, I'll only be reinforcing whatever bad habit I have.

I'll see if I can setup some kind of camera, maybe a webcam/laptop, and see if I notice anything. Until then, I'm open to any ideas or suggestions.
 
skeptic said:
First post, but I've tried to read a bunch. Been a month or two since I was last on here looking for ideas on my problem, but nothing I've tried is helping.

short version:
I go through periods where I miss firm stop/draw shots to the right and firm follow shots to the left. Maybe a full session/night, maybe 5 or 10 shots, maybe just the occasional flier. When I miss these it appears to me that I am hitting the ball off-center missing the shot due to squirt.


I have a recurring problem where I miss stop/draw shots to the right and follow shots to the left. It's not an aiming problem, I'm hitting the cue on one side or the other. My standard test is a straight shot about 3/4 the length of the table diagonally with the object ball roughly half way between cue and pocket where I shoot a stop/draw show with medium+ power. On a given day I may start out missing 5 in a row all to the right all by almost the same amount, then pocket 5 or 10, then back to missing the same way, etc. Sometimes I'll get a really bad miss on a draw shot, again to the right. Placing an object ball about a foot from the cue and just hitting a straight shot against a rail, same thing. Cue often will come off to the left with side spin telling me I hit the right side of the cue.

Just to make sure I'm not imagining things I just did the standard cue on the spot, hit the queue straight to the far end, and try to get the cue to come back to my cue tip. Follow shots had left english, draw shots had right english every time.

I've tried changing my grip from holding between thumb and finger tips to cradling it so loose it slides a bit as I shoot to tight (which I'd never want to do). I've tried making sure my upper arm doesn't move, doing the pendulum thing. I've allowed lots of arm and shoulder movement (I know, bad). Standing up higher, bending down lower, shifting weight over the cue more, different foot positions, slow back swing, pause during back swing, more follow through, less follow through, quick jabs (I know, bad), tight wrist, loose wrist trying to "throw" the cue at the ball...

I don't have access to a video recorder or I'd be recording myself and looking for clues. I have tried looking back to see where my arm is and if it's straight up and down. I've tried freezing after the follow through to see if it's straight. I've tried everything I can think of and tried a number of tips and suggestions I found here.

I'm really at a loss. I'd love a quick fix, but honestly I'd rather know what I'm doing to cause this then work on that problem.
Click to expand...



What City do you live in?
Scott or myself could stop by and offer a little help....SPF=randyg
 
No kidding. I don't understand why you would do that, but ok then.

I'm in Clearfield, UT. A bit south of Ogden.

Do you guys travel all over the US or something? Sorry - new to the forum, not really sure how it all works yet or if I stumbled upon a "local" site. I know it's AZ billiards, but I assumed it's a nationwide or worldwide audience.
 
Randy,
If neither of you are going to be in the area, maybe Rick might let him monitor one of his classes. I don't know, just a suggestion.
By the way, did Rick call you about the Charlotte class next weekend?
Steve
 
I realized my netbook has a webcam built in so I was able to record a few minutes of shooting from the side. Long shots, all with a bit of draw and somewhat firm. First shot was center pocket, followed by a number of misses to the right, then finished with a few center pocket shots. Honestly, I cannot tell the difference in my shooting between the misses and the makes. One thing I did notice is that I'm choked up more than I realized. I knew I choked up a bit so I'm slightly past 90* from the floor on impact, but I'm actually somewhat farther than I thought.

Quality isn't so good, seems to be a tradeoff between res/detail and framerate. I went with framerate as it seemed more important to catch the motion than be hi rez with good detail.

Any guidelines on file size/format? It's a bit over 3 minutes long and 15MB. I can try to get it available for download if the size is ok and anyone is willing to look it over. First shot was center pocket, the rest I said in the video what happened (missed to right a number of times then pocketed the ball the last few shots).

edit: also more elbow drop than I expected, due to choking up what I assume is a bit too far.
 
Neil said:
By all means, take up Randy on his free offer! But, in case that doesn't work out, and you have to figure it out on your own-
Click to expand...
Certainly! If he is ever in my area and I can get some free time, either my house or somewhere close by, I definitely will.
How do you change for a draw shot to a follow shot? Do you alter your stance, or do you just move the fingers on your bridge hand to change the height of where the tip hits while keeping everything else exactly the same?
Click to expand...
I was actually trying to confirm this a bit ago (before reading this). My intent is to change bridge height and keep everything else the same. I'm not positive, but I believe I may have some subtle unconscious difference in the shot. Just relaxing and shooting a draw shot somehow feels subtly different from trying to hit the bottom of the ball without 'trying' to draw it.
One thing you can do, but it comes with a warning- don't do this unless you really want to fix it because it can get very boring. If you have your own table, draw a straight line on it the length of it. Shoot the cb down this line at a slow speed being very careful to hit dead center on the cb. The cb should come right back to your tip. Do this at least 100 times. When you have that speed mastered, up your speed a little bit at a time. You should get the same results. Once you have the speed mastered, change to just a little off center on the vertical axis, either draw or follow, repeat until mastered. Then add a little more off center. Eventually you will get to the miscue limit, and still be going straight.

It is a long process, I know. But, I guarantee you it will work if you are willing to put in the time to do it. And instructor is much, much, much faster way to fix your problem though.
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I was working on a mini-version of this. More to check than try to fix anything. However, my results seem a bit misleading due to the last item. I believe there is some subtle difference between trying to do a draw shot vs. just hitting low on the ball. I realize a correct draw shot should be the same as a stop shot or follow other than bridge height/contact point, but I'm starting to think I may be subconsciously trying to force draw/follow. This is a new finding for me (and I'm not positive I'm even doing it), but it's another area to think about.
 
pooltchr said:
Randy,
If neither of you are going to be in the area, maybe Rick might let him monitor one of his classes. I don't know, just a suggestion.
By the way, did Rick call you about the Charlotte class next weekend?
Steve
Click to expand...



Yes. He called. I think he is attending. I agree, Rick could handle this case.
SPF=randyg
 
Neil said:
One thing I have been working on with one of my students is to get them to actually stroke the ball, and not just push it. Take a striped ball and use it for the cb. Get about 3' away from the ob, and try and draw the cb back. Watch the stripe on the cb and see if the backspin stops before it hits the ob.

You don't have to hit hard, but you have to come through the cb with a little speed or snap. You also may not be hitting as low as you think you are. Check for a chalk mark on the striped cb to verify where you are hitting it.
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Yup, no problem.. I'm fine with the amount of draw I get, even on light easy shots. Except when it doesn't draw straight.

Interestingly enough, I took 5 minutes during lunch (I work from home) and did this. I used the 13 ball (first stripe I grabbed), placed the 13 in the same place with the same orientation every time, lined up to hit just below and directly between the 1 and 3. Warm up strokes, tripple checked my aim and tip position, made sure my bridge was solid and not moving. Examining the chalk mark on the 13 after every shot I have amazing consistency - consistently hitting the wrong spot. About 1/8" high (just a tiny bit), and a good 1/4" to the right of where I'm aiming. Not sure why I didn't think of testing it this way myself. I've used a stripe as a cue to see how it rolls. I've hit straight shots into a ball a foot or two away to see if the cue stops or rolls to the side. Never actually used a method to see exactly where I'm hitting vs. where I'm aiming. I'm going to continue to use this method.
One thing that might help you get the feel right, is to pretend that the cb is actually 3" ahead of where it actually is, and try and hit it. That should tell you if you are hitting the cb at peak acceleration of your stroke or not. When you get real good draw without hitting the cb hard, stop and contemplate on what you did and how it felt. Then, try and duplicate it.
Click to expand...
Extending my follow through doesn't seem to make a bit of difference.
You might be tightening your shoulder on draw shots thinking you have to hit real hard. That will throw your stroke off just enough to not hit center on the cb. Just throwing some ideas out there for you, it's real hard to tell anything without watching you. That is exactly why you should p.m. Randy and set something up.
Click to expand...

Could very well be the shoulder thing, but it doesn't seem to be related to how hard/soft I hit. I just have been using harder shots to test because it's easier to read whether or not I'm hitting off center.

I haven't PMd anyone - a lot of forums and a lot of people do not like uninvited PMs. Anyone is free to PM me.
 
Neil...Some great info here, but just so you know...tension in your swing comes from the bicep and grip...not the shoulder. It might just be semantics, but I want to OP to understand clearly. You can't 'flex' the shoulder, without first 'flexing' the bicep and/or other arm muscles. Overflexing the bicep is what gets the shoulder involved in the stroke (and gets the elbow moving up or down). Also, to use the stipe to determine chalk marks for draw, make sure the stripe is positioned completely level on the table...otherwise the mark will likely be skewed. Great posts.

Skeptic...I will be out your way in Sept., as I have some business in SLC and Pocatello. I'd be happy to show you a few things. PM me with your name and phone number, and I'll let you know when I'm coming through Clearfield.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
You might be tightening your shoulder on draw shots thinking you have to hit real hard. That will throw your stroke off just enough to not hit center on the cb. Just throwing some ideas out there for you, it's real hard to tell anything without watching you. That is exactly why you should p.m. Randy and set something up.
Click to expand...
 
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