Mike Massey Exhibition Videos

[Eric.]

Agreed. But, to me, it seems like the purpose of the slight drop before contact is simply to cancel out the slight rise on the backstroke. The elbow is in the same position at contact as in the set position. It doesn't seem to me that he is gaining any advantage with the slight rise and drop before contact. Do you agree? What do others think?

Thanks,
Dave

Actually, I disagree. Here's why; raising the elbow above the original position, to drop it back to the original position as you are striking the CB, gives your stroke a little more momentum and power due to to the extra muscles working.

I'm thinking of an analogy of a softball pitch. Imagine which pitch has more velocity; a throw using only the forearm (pinned elbow) or a pitch with the whole arm moving?


Eric

 

[dr_dave]

I do the same thing on my break shots. It does add a little power. What is happening, is that you raise your shoulder some. You then drop your shoulder, which drops the elbow back to it's normal plane. During this time, the cue has gone forward very little. But, it does have speed and momentum into it. Once back at the classic pendulum point, the cue then goes forward just from the forearm with no elbow drop.

You are essentially increasing the length of your stroke by doing that, and thereby adding more power or speed without having to increase your bridge length which could lose accuracy.

If I remember correctly, Colin has some videos demonstrating this for the break.

Here's Colin's video. FYI, more info on this topic can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#advice​

This effect you describe is important with a power break, where some people raise their body, and/or straighten the arm (as with many of the small, female Asian pros), and/or choke up on the cue, and/or drop the elbow before ball contact, but I don't think Mike is getting much added power with his slight elbow motion into the ball. If he were using his shoulder for power, I think his elbow would drop more and sooner (e.g., during and immediately after contact).

Flex your shoulder (i.e., move your upper arm up and down while keeping your elbow angle fixed) to create the small pre-contact elbow motion Mike exhibits. This doesn't give you much forward cue speed or mechanical advantage. I think Mike's power is coming from his fast-twitch and strong biceps muscle.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I think it's entirely significant. It incorporates the shoulder into the motion. If his elbow joint were not flexing at all (staying at a fixed angle), the act of raising and then dropping the elbow using the shoulder joint creates a little miniature stroke (this is actually how pro Mike Davis plays; his elbow stays pretty much fixed and his stroke comes from the shoulder). Combining this with the "pendulum stroke" (the component of the stroke using the elbow as the center of rotation), has an additive effect; the motion of the hand is equal to the amount caused by the pendulum plus the amount caused by the shoulder.

But beyond this additive effect, there's a "hidden" multiplicative effect based on the kinesiology. The bicep is only capable of contracting so fast. It's reasonable to expect Mike could probably curl a 40-lb. dumbbell. But can his bicep output that quantity of force without the 40-lb. load? Kinesiology says no. You have to load a muscle to get the maximum amount of output from it. Given only 19 ounces of load, there's not that much force available. Given less force, there's less acceleration.

But you can trigger greater force from the bicep using inertia as load. Start the stroke from the shoulder, and the bicep is already engaged just preventing the hand from lagging behind the elbow. The bicep is "pre-loaded" at that point, and when you start to contract it to create the pendulum motion, it's able to output significantly more force, which results in significantly greater acceleration.

Sources cited: I learned all this from Colin Colenso, talking about how to break really hard. He learned it from his experience as a shotput competitor, which involves many of the same concepts to achieve maximum muscle-force for maximum acceleration.

Edit: Neil beat me to this point a little, but I think my post offers good supporting detail to his.

I know what you are talking about. Colin refers to it as "eccentric contraction" is his video. However, I don't think Mike is achieving much biceps pre-load with his small pre-contact motion.

Colin pre-loads his shoulder muscles quite a bit (creating "eccentric contraction") during his power break with a well-timed forward body lunge and lift.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The REAL question is.... do you let momentum take your hand to your chest (pendulum) or do you let momentum take your hand along the vector of the shot (elbow drop)

Watch the video again, and look very closely starting at 0:30. Notice how the cue comes to a complete stop with the tip down on the cloth with shaft flex (as with a long-follow-through pendulum stroke). This occurs at about 0:35 in the video (well after the post-impact slowdown caused by the collision, which occurs almost instantaneously). Mike doesn't flex his shoulder and drop the elbow (and lift the tip off the table) until after he is done with the complete pendulum motion. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just saying it looks a little different than what you are describing. (But I still like you.) In fact, it almost seems like the shaft flex is the primary driving force bringing his grip hand down with the shoulder flex, allowing the cue to go forward some more after stopping.

Scientifically, it prob doesn't matter. The answer is a philosophic one, imo.

I agree.

In your example, Massey obviously feels it's important to fire his hand down the shot vector

Again, it doesn't look like that to me (see above).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Dave

PS: Are you still working hard on a CTE book and/or video? If you want me to take a critical look at a draft, let me know.

 

[Andrew Manning]

However, I don't think Mike is achieving much biceps pre-load with his small pre-contact motion.

Colin pre-loads his shoulder muscles quite a bit (creating "eccentric contraction") during his power break with a well-timed forward body lunge and lift.

I think judging the extent of the pre-load, and the extent of its effect on the force output of the muscle, from only a video analysis, is a spotty proposition at best. I still contend that the effect of incorporating the shoulder, even to the slight extent Mike does it, is significant.

-Andrew

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[dr_dave]

I think judging the extent of the pre-load, and the extent of its effect on the force output of the muscle, from only a video analysis, is a spotty proposition at best.

Agreed.

I still contend that the effect of incorporating the shoulder, even to the slight extent Mike does it, is significant.

I'll agree to disagree slightly on this matter (i.e., I admit it could be a small factor).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Andrew Manning]

I'll agree to disagree slightly on this matter (i.e., I admit it could be a small factor).

Agreed (to disagree)

-Andrew

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Watch the video again, and look very closely starting at 0:30. Notice how the cue comes to a complete stop with the tip down on the cloth with shaft flex (as with a long-follow-through pendulum stroke). This occurs at about 0:35 in the video (well after the post-impact slowdown caused by the collision, which occurs almost instantaneously). Mike doesn't flex his shoulder and drop the elbow (and lift the tip off the table) until after he is done with the complete pendulum motion. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just saying it looks a little different than what you are describing. (But I still like you.) In fact, it almost seems like the shaft flex is the primary driving force bringing his grip hand down with the shoulder flex, allowing the cue to go forward some more after stopping.

I agree.

Again, it doesn't look like that to me (see above).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Dave

PS: Are you still working hard on a CTE book and/or video? If you want me to take a critical look at a draft, let me know.

I haven't been working on the guide lately because I've been helping Stan do the graphics for his video. I just finished that stuff this week so I'll get back to the guide soon.

 

[dr_dave]

Watch the video again, and look very closely starting at 0:30. Notice how the cue comes to a complete stop with the tip down on the cloth with shaft flex (as with a long-follow-through pendulum stroke). This occurs at about 0:35 in the video (well after the post-impact slowdown caused by the collision, which occurs almost instantaneously). Mike doesn't flex his shoulder and drop the elbow (and lift the tip off the table) until after he is done with the complete pendulum motion. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just saying it looks a little different than what you are describing. (But I still like you.) In fact, it almost seems like the shaft flex is the primary driving force bringing his grip hand down with the shoulder flex, allowing the cue to go forward some more after stopping.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Dave

PS: Are you still working hard on a CTE book and/or video? If you want me to take a critical look at a draft, let me know.

I haven't been working on the guide lately because I've been helping Stan do the graphics for his video. I just finished that stuff this week so I'll get back to the guide soon.

I look forward to seeing Stan's DVD and your guide. Something like this is long overdue.

Now go watch the video again. :grin:

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

A bump for those who haven't see and/or commented on the videos yet.

Thanks,
Dave

Mike Massey gave an exhibition at Match Ups in Fort Collins this past weekend (7/10/10) and he agreed to let me record and post video for many of the shots. We also recorded some things with my high-speed camera for super-slow-motion playback. Here are all of the videos:

finger pool
power draw
trick shot collection
frozen-to-cushion-and-snookered shot options
jump shot variations
draw with English off frozen balls for three-rail billiard​

I apologize for the poor lighting, background noise, and limited camera angle. I didn't get much alone-time with Mike, and I didn't want to disrupt or cause distractions during his exhibition.

It was a real pleasure to meet Mike and watch his show. He seemed to really like the high-speed-camera stuff, even though the bright lights can be very annoying. He seemed particularly happy and proud to capture the finger pool stuff on video.

Enjoy the clips. Be sure to at least check out the finger pool and power draw videos. The high-speed camera made these particularly revealing and interesting.

Mike and I look forward to seeing which shots you guys like the best, and why. I'm also curious to see what people think about his elbow drop in the power draw video. Mike sure seemed surprised by what he saw.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Last bump ... for the "weekend crowd."

Mike Massey gave an exhibition at Match Ups in Fort Collins this past weekend (7/10/10) and he agreed to let me record and post video for many of the shots. We also recorded some things with my high-speed camera for super-slow-motion playback. Here are all of the videos:

finger pool
power draw
trick shot collection
frozen-to-cushion-and-snookered shot options
jump shot variations
draw with English off frozen balls for three-rail billiard​

I apologize for the poor lighting, background noise, and limited camera angle. I didn't get much alone-time with Mike, and I didn't want to disrupt or cause distractions during his exhibition.

It was a real pleasure to meet Mike and watch his show. He seemed to really like the high-speed-camera stuff, even though the bright lights can be very annoying. He seemed particularly happy and proud to capture the finger pool stuff on video.

Enjoy the clips. Be sure to at least check out the finger pool and power draw videos. The high-speed camera made these particularly revealing and interesting.

Mike and I look forward to seeing which shots you guys like the best, and why. I'm also curious to see what people think about his elbow drop in the power draw video. Mike sure seemed surprised by what he saw.

Thanks,
Dave