What If Fundamentals Aren't That Important After All?

JarnoV

JarnoV
Silver Member
Any discussion of stroke technique always comes back to fundamentals --stance, grip, stroke mechanics etc-- and how important those fundamentals are. I've begun to doubt some of this fundamentalism (heh heh, sorry for the bad pun). It's not that I don't believe that fundamentals are important, all other things being equal. It's just that I'm not sure if all other things are ever equal.

Before you turn your head in disgust, let me make this clear: I'm not suggesting to discard fundamentals. I'm suggesting that perhaps we need a different perspective. Another disclaimer is that this isn't something I've thought through for a long time. It's a bit of a thought-experiment.

First, let me start by acknowledging that there are attributes of the execution of a pool shot that we know for quite sure help the development of pool skills. Things like alignment, stance, proper follow-through and so on. If someone should develop a style where he abruptly stops the cue right after contacting the cue ball, it's pretty much guaranteed that he wouldn't develop a consistent shot, at least up to a point.

But while there are certain such fundamentals, they have quite a tolerance as to how they can be followed. What can be recognized as a good stroke is a pretty wide-ranging concept. Now, the argument can be made that some of the professionals that have non-textbook fundamentals could improve their skill level by fixing those flaws of their stroke, but my argument is not that because there are really good players with questionable fundamentals that fundamentals don't matter.

My argument is that it's quite possible that too much focus on fixing the flaws of your technique might slow down your development. My argument is that there is quite a wide range of techniques that work just fine. In other words, take a player who has a recognizable flaw, though not a big one, in his technique. It might be that "fixing" that particular flaw is not a net win for the player. Of course, the traditional argument goes that you have to focus on fixing the problem only for a while and then it becomes automatic.

However, I think that any type of conscious control over the execution is largely harmful for the learning process. This is pretty much the argument that Timothy Gallwey puts forward in his book The Inner Game of Tennis. The conscious mind only gives goals and targets for the unconscious (or "body" if you will) and lets the unconscious execute it. The unconscious (or the motor cortex to be more exact) figures out how to do it after practice, given a little bit of help to the right direction. This help is basically just a general image/visualization of the shot.

Gallwey's ideas aren't of course against fundamentals, per se, but I feel that the end result of the way Gallwey suggest we should learn might not be that close to what we could consider proper fundamentals. There are some things that you probably can't completely ignore, but the range of good enough techniques is, in my opinion, much wider than most people think. By "good enough" I mean techniques that are obviously somewhat flawed, but that fixing them wouldn't help the player.

Let's take a reasonably good player who has some flaw in his technique. Let's say his hand isn't completely straight on the shooting line. Now, you can logically argue that if his hand was completely straight, he would shoot better. First, it is near impossible to verify this objectively. You could possibly manufacture tests that measure this, but it would take so much time and effort to test this particular feature and you wouldn't still be sure if it's in fact the straightness that makes the difference if there was any.

Second, we don't quite know how exactly our brains do in fact learn to execute shots. We don't know what are all the things in our motor system that promote the best possible consistency. It might be that for a given individual, the optimal technique isn't exactly what we think is the best set of fundamentals.

Now, as I said before, there are things that we know for quite sure are important for the best technique. The optimal stroke probably isn't too "jerky" or otherwise not smooth. You probably can't stand up before you even execute the shot. And so on. Fixing really obvious flaws probably gives high yield for most players. But my claim is that this yield will stop at some point and I think the point isn't at "pretty much perfect fundamentals" but quite far away from that.

As is hopefully clear from the above, I'm not suggesting to throw away fundamentals. My thinking is that through non-judgemental observation and visualization/emulation of known good techniques, you can let your body learn on its own and if with it comes something that could be considered a flaw, don't necessarily regard it as something that you should fix. I believe that through the process that Gallwey suggests as the most efficient learning method, you might come up with a technique that suits you best but has flaws compared to perfect fundamentals. And I think that correcting those flaws might not be in your best interest.

Thoughts, disagreements?
 
I think because pool is a precision sport that fundamentals are so very important. fundamentals are always evolving and we learn new things about them all the time and people disagree about what is better. You can hold the cue 5 different ways, stand at different degrees, chin on the cue or stand up a bit. You can have a 3 inch stroke or a 15 inch stroke. You can have 15 practice strokes or NONE! There are pros and cons to all of these things and that is why everyones game is different. But because of precision, fundies are important me thinks.
 
My first reaction is... Yes. I mean, seriously... "textbook" stroke definition (stance, swing, warm-up, etc) is something like Jasmin does... then look at really - any of the Fillipino players, also Mika and even Shane to an extent... they're in-line, sure, but that cue is windmilling up and down all over the place. That goes against an awful lot of what is generally considered a good stroke form; straight back, straight through.

I think it depends, like you said, on the degree of 'perfect' one wishes to achieve with their form.
 
There are some professional coaches that teach players just to incorporate some of the proven fundamentals into their technique without throwing away their own style. The theory is that with these fundamentals you will progress more rapidly on a more linear path than if you just play devoid of any traditional methods or just " have atter" so to speak.
These proven methods also promote consistency and the allow easier analysis when things go wrong. I think it shows too, you do see many varied styles among the younger more coached generation of players yet they still use the same basic techniques.
 
well, in pool, like in golf, the only thing that is really important is the position of the striking implement and the path of same at the moment of impact. everything you do before or after the implement is in contact with the ball is immaterial.

now here's the gotacha: good fundamentals allows players of modest natural ability maximize the repeatability of their stroke, thus getting the most consistent results.

players with above average talent (Jim Furyk being a very visible example) can achieve extraordinary results with (shall we say) somewhat flawed mechanics. even with that giant loop in his backswing, he is able to have the club right on plane, with the clubhead in the exact right spot, every time (or certainly close enough to every time for us mere mortals) to get the results he wants.

it's the rest of us who need to worry about fundamentals...
 
There are some professional coaches that teach players just to incorporate some of the proven fundamentals into their technique without throwing away their own style. The theory is that with these fundamentals you will progress more rapidly on a more linear path than if you just play devoid of any traditional methods or just " have atter" so to speak.
These proven methods also promote consistency and the allow easier analysis when things go wrong. I think it shows too, you do see many varied styles among the younger more coached generation of players yet they still use the same basic techniques.

Here is the best post I've seen on the subject. I hate teachers that want students to adopt their 'style'. Just give some pointers and explain that these help build talent or will give you something to fall back on when the heat is turned up.
 
LOL! just trying to imagine how I would shoot if no one showed me some basic fundamentals. HAHA. Maybe I would shoot better!
 
Diminshing Returns

I think the OP's point was more to the law of diminishing returns. You have to weigh the time it will take for you to make a change versus the improvement you would see from said change. There are major fundamentals that will improve your game, then there are minor things that may or may not make you better.

Also, I think fundamentals are much more about consistency than "proper movement". The pro's that have akward strokes have the same akward stroke each and every time. Efren lifts his head up right before every shot, but it is the same. The point of "correct" fundamentals for amateurs is to allow them to be consistent as quick as possible. Someone who is never taught these may still be as good or better, it all depends on that person's muscle memory and natural ability. These are just a way to "fast track" someone in to getting better.

And like Bart said, if you are under pressure, good fundamentals are something you can rely on in the heat.
 
Another is Scott Frost - he tends to turn his head as he's stroking through the ball - after a wind-up kind of stroke... yet certainly can make balls. Allen Hopkins' stroke is almost painful to watch, that little 'punch-through' thing...ew.

re: coaches... i've heard time and time again that a good coach is one that takes what you bring to the table and makes it work... as opposed to try to force you to change everything to fit one style.
 
I'll just repeat what I've said before in these forums: I think the biomechanics of pool is very poorly understood compared to other sports.

Some of the "fundamentals" may not even be fundamental.
 
If that were true then we would never have to practice....or would we?
SPF=randyg
 
You are always going to see great players with "unorthodox" styles or exceptions to the rule, they have been doing it that way for years, never had to tinker and so it works for them. Maybe if they had started out incorporating more traditional methods they would have been even better sooner, we will never know. If things do go wrong for them just try analyzing it! :D
 
I think these keep changing along with the sport. I believe you need good fundamentals, but yours may differ from mine. This one stance, stroke etc for everyone is long gone and we have tons of proof. Pool isn't snooker, you need a combination of potting and loads of power. These new styles are the hybrid stroke stance.

Put your cue down straight and wrap around it so you stroke straight. All this 90 degree blah blah is old school, like the feet 45 degree to aim line and standing tall from years back.
 
It would be interesting if you did take all the top players and fix all their "flaws" and see if that makes them even better. Could you imagine some of these guys. I guess the question would be what do yo think the proper fundamentals are. That would be fun to talk about.
 
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