No league offers as much to gain as the APA. There are so many ways to get to Vegas and so many ways to make some money. All I hear is that it's "slop pool" and "everyone is overrated" from the local players that don't want to join. My counter to the first is always "Well the pro's don't call their shots", to which they usually reply "Well no one in it is a pro, are they?" I play in TAP also and yeah, almost everyone in TAP is rated a skill level below what they would be in the APA but if everyone is overrated, how is that unfair?
Why is the APA so frowned upon?
- Thread starter Magyar19
- Start date
rattleryan9
Registered
Probably bc nationals is single mod. And how would you feel to travel from Canada or kansas and play a sudden death match to lose and go home. Or play in the doulbles and take 9th wich payed 125 a person, or how about 129th as a team and only getting 120 a person. I like the APA dont get me wrong but I like it to meet people not play good pool. I just started the BCA and love it.
I chose a LONG time ago to never play APA. It is great for ultra beginners, but anyone who has a desire to GET BETTER should quit and play a real league, or just practice on your own and play tournaments.
APA has stupid rules.
A) Any pocket is good.
B) Mark your pocket for the 8 ball
C) in 9-ball, the match can end with balls still sitting on the table, etc,etc
Besides, many, I mean MANY players purposefully slow play or hold back so as to "Not get bumped up" before regionals or whatever. That my friend is bullshit. Any league that rewards slow-playing is for suckers.
I don't know ANY good players that play APA, only wannabees
APA has stupid rules.
A) Any pocket is good.
B) Mark your pocket for the 8 ball
C) in 9-ball, the match can end with balls still sitting on the table, etc,etc
Besides, many, I mean MANY players purposefully slow play or hold back so as to "Not get bumped up" before regionals or whatever. That my friend is bullshit. Any league that rewards slow-playing is for suckers.
I don't know ANY good players that play APA, only wannabees
I never thought about it that way . . .
But that's probably the most accurate description of the APA I've ever heard . . .
But that's probably the most accurate description of the APA I've ever heard . . .
It is the capitalist model to go after the biggest most successful competitor in the market. They are the Wal Mart of the pool world. They offer a product that has mass appeal, they have market share and penetration, and they sport the largest active player base.
Everyone's approach is that it is a zero sum gain and that players have to be won over from one league to the next. Of course the pie can be made bigger, but it requires a lot more time and effort to develope a new set of player into the league model than it does to recruit players away from a successful model that they are already playing in. In order to do that they have to offer or claim to offer a superior league experience.
Everyone's approach is that it is a zero sum gain and that players have to be won over from one league to the next. Of course the pie can be made bigger, but it requires a lot more time and effort to develope a new set of player into the league model than it does to recruit players away from a successful model that they are already playing in. In order to do that they have to offer or claim to offer a superior league experience.
Your first two sentences answer your question in my opinion.
"No league offers as much to gain as the APA". This is true - buy an APA franchise and you can make more money off pool players than any other league. Remember, an APA franchise IS a BUSINESS.
"There are many ways to get to Vegas and so many ways to make some money".
The whole APA marketing strategy is based on the possibility of what might happen and not the probability. Everyone can Play anyone can win. Hundreds of thousands in prize money!
Take a look at your league - figure out the percentage of teams that go to Vegas maybe 1 in 30 or 40. You will also find that certain teams or captains win a disproportionate amount of the the trips. Have you wondered why? This should not happen if everything was handicapped properly. Every year they disqualify teams in Vegas for cheating. OK, that is cool they DQ'd a team in Vegas. Well for every team they DQ in Vegas there are a couple of dozen back in those teams home towns that were cheated out of their time, efforts and money. No team should be DQ'd in Vegas the League operators should catch them before they go after all the teams have played all year long in their local league under the eye of the ever vigilant Division Reps and League operators..
I play APA just to have another night of playing pool. Our 9 ball team plays out of a nice pool hall with 9' tables newly re-felted with simonis tournament blue cloth. So not only do I get to play on nice equipment I get to play for free on practice tables all night, and if I have a match that night it only costs me $10 plus whatever food I end up getting that night.
A regular feature here at AZBilliards, bashing APA.
It is fashionable to bash whatever the biggest, or most popular. Wal-Mart. AT&T. The Yankees or Cowboys. Hannah Montana. Tom Cruise. Oprah. McDonalds. Whoever is the President. It makes people feel superior, to talk badly about the most successful or popular. It's "cool" to rail against #1. And when others do it, everyone can pile on and it's so much fun.
The rules arguments are silly. There are no standardized 8-ball rules. It's different everywhere. Between leagues, too. Every bar is different. Know what rules are in place for whatevergame you are playing wherever you are playing and you'll be fine. Complaining about it is simply whining.
And the old favorite, sandbagging... First off, not everyone cheats. I don't, and am moderately successful in my local league. I will not cheat to go further. That's how it is for most of the players in our league. I'm sure it's like that most everywhere. But of course there are those who feel the need to "get over" on someone, to take advantage in order to get the win. Hmmmmmm, what does that sound like? The oft-regaled "hustle", romanticized in the pool world for generations. So you hide your true speed (sandbagging) in order to get a competitive advantage and win. Funny how one persons "cheating" is another persons great adventure. Hypocritical, these pool players.
APA is fine, a good place for beginners to start, and a good place for pretty much everyone that isn't "too good". The definition of "too good" is up to you. If you think you are better than the lowly APA player, don't play. It's your loss. There are plenty of us out here playing every week, and having fun. And learning, too. (And there are quite a few really good players playing APA. They must be wannabees, too.)
The whole bash-APA thing is quite tiresome. But it will fill up several pages of the thread, and give those who like to feel superior a chance to feel extra special good about themselves today.
It is fashionable to bash whatever the biggest, or most popular. Wal-Mart. AT&T. The Yankees or Cowboys. Hannah Montana. Tom Cruise. Oprah. McDonalds. Whoever is the President. It makes people feel superior, to talk badly about the most successful or popular. It's "cool" to rail against #1. And when others do it, everyone can pile on and it's so much fun.
The rules arguments are silly. There are no standardized 8-ball rules. It's different everywhere. Between leagues, too. Every bar is different. Know what rules are in place for whatevergame you are playing wherever you are playing and you'll be fine. Complaining about it is simply whining.
And the old favorite, sandbagging... First off, not everyone cheats. I don't, and am moderately successful in my local league. I will not cheat to go further. That's how it is for most of the players in our league. I'm sure it's like that most everywhere. But of course there are those who feel the need to "get over" on someone, to take advantage in order to get the win. Hmmmmmm, what does that sound like? The oft-regaled "hustle", romanticized in the pool world for generations. So you hide your true speed (sandbagging) in order to get a competitive advantage and win. Funny how one persons "cheating" is another persons great adventure. Hypocritical, these pool players.
APA is fine, a good place for beginners to start, and a good place for pretty much everyone that isn't "too good". The definition of "too good" is up to you. If you think you are better than the lowly APA player, don't play. It's your loss. There are plenty of us out here playing every week, and having fun. And learning, too. (And there are quite a few really good players playing APA. They must be wannabees, too.)
The whole bash-APA thing is quite tiresome. But it will fill up several pages of the thread, and give those who like to feel superior a chance to feel extra special good about themselves today.
Lance Link
Banned
It's nice to know where the money goes...
At our BCA pre-season captain's meeting last night, we spoke with someone that previously played in the APA, and just recently chose to play in the BCA. He proceeded to tell us that the first place team (FIRST PLACE) in the APA last season took home exactly $100. Yep, one-hundred dollars. Second place received $50. That was the only money paid out. No team trip to Las Vegas, no singles trip, no trophies, nothing else.
The dues were $10 per week. Now, figuring $10 per player each week, and there were 37 people on that night... $370 a week. Multiply that times the 16 weeks on the season, and you've got $5,920. Minus the $150 from above... the LO banked $5,770 !!!
I'm certainly not opposed to an LO making money (it is not an easy job), but $5,770 ?!?!? And only paying out $150 ?!?!? There are other names for it, but most would call that criminal !!!
In our BCA league, when they make the payouts at the banquet, they include a printout with each team's prize money (check or cash) that shows a breakdown of how much was collected and how and where those monies were distributed.
And at just about any poker tourney, they include a formula (based on entries) of how the payouts are distributed.
To date, no one has claimed that our LO is 'making a killing'. The BCA requires thier annual $15 membership fee. The LO collects an additional one-time $15 for league sanction per season (and whatever he collects, he must divide between himself, the secretary and the treasurer). Depending on the amount of players per season, it roughly works out that the LO can buy themselves a plane ticket to Las Vegas (coach, of course) and maybe, with a few more players/teams in the league, entry fee in the singles.
For the constant work (scheduling, averages, collecting dues, etc.), that doesn't seem like much. IMO, I think that the LO's should make a bit more for the time they sacrifice and the problems and issues they have to deal with. But an LO keeping over 95% of the money is a bit much.
And yes, the APA is great for beginners... that simply want a night out and a chance to bang the balls around. Our BCA league always has at least one night of play that is not 'as serious' as the night of play for the Las Vegas trip. And that's the perfect night for APA players to continue to make the transition to the BCA because, aside from the $15 league sanction fee from above, ALL THE MONEY GOES BACK TO THE PLAYERS !!!
This past summer season, there were 6 teams playing. $400 team dues for the season times 6 teams equals $2400. An additional $670 collected from tavern fees brought the total to $3,036 (summer leagues are tough to fill). Guess how much was payed back to the players ?? $3,036 !!!!! AND LAST PLACE COLLECTED OVER $300 !!!!!
All I'm saying is that it's nice to know where our money goes...
At our BCA pre-season captain's meeting last night, we spoke with someone that previously played in the APA, and just recently chose to play in the BCA. He proceeded to tell us that the first place team (FIRST PLACE) in the APA last season took home exactly $100. Yep, one-hundred dollars. Second place received $50. That was the only money paid out. No team trip to Las Vegas, no singles trip, no trophies, nothing else.
The dues were $10 per week. Now, figuring $10 per player each week, and there were 37 people on that night... $370 a week. Multiply that times the 16 weeks on the season, and you've got $5,920. Minus the $150 from above... the LO banked $5,770 !!!
I'm certainly not opposed to an LO making money (it is not an easy job), but $5,770 ?!?!? And only paying out $150 ?!?!? There are other names for it, but most would call that criminal !!!
In our BCA league, when they make the payouts at the banquet, they include a printout with each team's prize money (check or cash) that shows a breakdown of how much was collected and how and where those monies were distributed.
And at just about any poker tourney, they include a formula (based on entries) of how the payouts are distributed.
To date, no one has claimed that our LO is 'making a killing'. The BCA requires thier annual $15 membership fee. The LO collects an additional one-time $15 for league sanction per season (and whatever he collects, he must divide between himself, the secretary and the treasurer). Depending on the amount of players per season, it roughly works out that the LO can buy themselves a plane ticket to Las Vegas (coach, of course) and maybe, with a few more players/teams in the league, entry fee in the singles.
For the constant work (scheduling, averages, collecting dues, etc.), that doesn't seem like much. IMO, I think that the LO's should make a bit more for the time they sacrifice and the problems and issues they have to deal with. But an LO keeping over 95% of the money is a bit much.
And yes, the APA is great for beginners... that simply want a night out and a chance to bang the balls around. Our BCA league always has at least one night of play that is not 'as serious' as the night of play for the Las Vegas trip. And that's the perfect night for APA players to continue to make the transition to the BCA because, aside from the $15 league sanction fee from above, ALL THE MONEY GOES BACK TO THE PLAYERS !!!
This past summer season, there were 6 teams playing. $400 team dues for the season times 6 teams equals $2400. An additional $670 collected from tavern fees brought the total to $3,036 (summer leagues are tough to fill). Guess how much was payed back to the players ?? $3,036 !!!!! AND LAST PLACE COLLECTED OVER $300 !!!!!
All I'm saying is that it's nice to know where our money goes...
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Once again, probably not the whole story, or it truly could be a bad-guy LO for that area.
I'm going to play in our APA session championship Tuesday night. The winning team will get around $800 to split ($100 each) and the losing team will get around $400 to split. 4 sessions a year. Our LO has approximatley 14 different divisions for 8-ball. A bit fewer for 9-ball, and I don't know how they pay-out, but I expect it's similar. You can put that math together real quick. That's a lot of money, each session.
Our LO sent 7 teams (8 and 9 ball) to Vegas, plus 3 doubles teams and some singles. Plus all the money they pay to each team at the vegas qualifier tournament, just for getting there, and after each advancement in the tournament.
I don't need a spreadsheet telling me how much money is spent on specific things, these readily available numbers tell me there is plenty of money getting put back into our leagues players hands.
And I didn't get into this for the money, anyway. I get a darned good value for my $8 a week.
Too many people worrying too much about everybody elses business.
Of course, in the case of the bad-guy LO's that don't give back some, I understand the frustration, and I probably wouldn't stay with them for long either, especially if there were other options. I understand and agree with this completely. But every APA LO isn't that way, just like every APA player doesn't cheat.
First off, I want to say that I play in two APA leagues, 8-ball and a 9-ball.
Secondly, I am not bashing the APA in this post. I may not deem my area to be BS-free, but I do not feel my area is representative of the APA as a whole.
Thirdly, I am also not on the APA bandwagon, per se. Don't love it, don't hate it is my stance.
I do not care for the APA rules as much as I do the BCA rules, but IMO, if everybody is playing by the same rules, it makes no difference to me that they differ.
IMO the rules/overall format in the APA would work just fine if proper scorekeeping and HONEST playing was used at or near 100% of the time.
The biggest problem in the APA, and the one that I have the hardest time fading, is the poor sportsmanship/etiquitte displayed. You see, at 57 years old, I grew up playing in an age where when you weren't at the table, you were quietly sitting in a chair giving an amount of RESPECT to the opponent at the table. Win or lose, you went to your opponent, gave a good firm handshake, nodded and said "Nice game/match". No screaming, whooping like a Banshee Indian (just a figure of speech, not meant to insult any native Americans), parading/strutting around like you just got the MVP award at the Super Bowl or something. I think it's the team (8 people on a roster) thing that is turning amateur pool into "rah-rah" cheering matches and obscenely loud whooping and hollering. Each teams table looks like a miniature version of a football game grandstand. Then you throw alcohol into the mixture, and sometimes it gets downright embarassing. I play in a BCA league one night a week and I can honestly say that there hasn't been ONE SINGLE TIME in four sessions now that I've seen an example of poor sportsmanship/etiquitte displayed. I'm not saying that these things don't happen in BCA leagues, just that I haven't witnessed them in MY league, and that's all I have to go on, for the sake of comment.
So IMO the APA, if done properly and rules are abided by, can be a good choice for amateur poolplayers IF you get lucky enough to get in an area with a good, honest League Operator that has honest players/teammates that understand and display good sportsmanship during their matches.
I just haven't been lucky enough to find that yet. But then again, I think my "old school" ways (as far as pool etiquitte goes) are fading off into the sunset. Shame too!!!
So the answer to the OP's question as to why the APA is so frowned upon, I can only answer with what has been my experiences. And that would be: Crappy League Operator, dishonest/disrespectful players, and total lack of knowledge in how to PROPERLY mark the scoresheets.
Maniac
Secondly, I am not bashing the APA in this post. I may not deem my area to be BS-free, but I do not feel my area is representative of the APA as a whole.
Thirdly, I am also not on the APA bandwagon, per se. Don't love it, don't hate it is my stance.
I do not care for the APA rules as much as I do the BCA rules, but IMO, if everybody is playing by the same rules, it makes no difference to me that they differ.
IMO the rules/overall format in the APA would work just fine if proper scorekeeping and HONEST playing was used at or near 100% of the time.
The biggest problem in the APA, and the one that I have the hardest time fading, is the poor sportsmanship/etiquitte displayed. You see, at 57 years old, I grew up playing in an age where when you weren't at the table, you were quietly sitting in a chair giving an amount of RESPECT to the opponent at the table. Win or lose, you went to your opponent, gave a good firm handshake, nodded and said "Nice game/match". No screaming, whooping like a Banshee Indian (just a figure of speech, not meant to insult any native Americans), parading/strutting around like you just got the MVP award at the Super Bowl or something. I think it's the team (8 people on a roster) thing that is turning amateur pool into "rah-rah" cheering matches and obscenely loud whooping and hollering. Each teams table looks like a miniature version of a football game grandstand. Then you throw alcohol into the mixture, and sometimes it gets downright embarassing. I play in a BCA league one night a week and I can honestly say that there hasn't been ONE SINGLE TIME in four sessions now that I've seen an example of poor sportsmanship/etiquitte displayed. I'm not saying that these things don't happen in BCA leagues, just that I haven't witnessed them in MY league, and that's all I have to go on, for the sake of comment.
So IMO the APA, if done properly and rules are abided by, can be a good choice for amateur poolplayers IF you get lucky enough to get in an area with a good, honest League Operator that has honest players/teammates that understand and display good sportsmanship during their matches.
I just haven't been lucky enough to find that yet. But then again, I think my "old school" ways (as far as pool etiquitte goes) are fading off into the sunset. Shame too!!!
So the answer to the OP's question as to why the APA is so frowned upon, I can only answer with what has been my experiences. And that would be: Crappy League Operator, dishonest/disrespectful players, and total lack of knowledge in how to PROPERLY mark the scoresheets.
Maniac
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I can only speak of what we have available over here , and it's simply terrible league.
The payouts are the worst I've ever seen , we've won the last 3 sessions and never cleared more than about $40 a player. Rediculous and insulting.
Been to Tri-Cup/Cities every year I've played league , always rought with horrible equipment , cheating and 'stacked' draws. Little to no practice options and just bad overall conditions. Playing in these are days I dred the worst.
Been to Vegas a couple times now and honestly , it's not nearly as bad as the local scene but I'd rather pay and go on my own time. The pool aspect of Vegas is a side bar to the rest IMO.
So why do I play APA at all ? One reason , local halls give free pracice tables the rest of the week to members. So , I'm down to 1 APA and 1 BCA and when this alst APA runs out I'm done. BCA get's me the same practice options , less payout and far greater return.
Rules ,etc , and all the other stuff ? Eh, who cares. Everyone plays the same set so I don't see how it matters overall. There are 2 kinds of luck for everyone.
The payouts are the worst I've ever seen , we've won the last 3 sessions and never cleared more than about $40 a player. Rediculous and insulting.
Been to Tri-Cup/Cities every year I've played league , always rought with horrible equipment , cheating and 'stacked' draws. Little to no practice options and just bad overall conditions. Playing in these are days I dred the worst.
Been to Vegas a couple times now and honestly , it's not nearly as bad as the local scene but I'd rather pay and go on my own time. The pool aspect of Vegas is a side bar to the rest IMO.
So why do I play APA at all ? One reason , local halls give free pracice tables the rest of the week to members. So , I'm down to 1 APA and 1 BCA and when this alst APA runs out I'm done. BCA get's me the same practice options , less payout and far greater return.
Rules ,etc , and all the other stuff ? Eh, who cares. Everyone plays the same set so I don't see how it matters overall. There are 2 kinds of luck for everyone.
justadub,
Are you shi**ing me??? Are you serious??? I've played on teams (and won) our session championships MANY times and have NOT EVER ONCE received anything other than a cheap trophy. Are you talking about the last stop tourney before the Vegas trip or are you talking about the playoffs to determine who wins your division outright? By you saying "session championship" in your post, I am assuming your are talking about your division playoff finals. If this is the case, you really get a payout for that? We've only gotten a dust-collecting trophy for winning that!!!
Maybe my d*ckhead LO is even WORSE than I already knew he was
.Maniac
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Some have figured out an APA Franchisee is like being a Doctor, license to steal. In my are APA League Operators pay back to league members 42%..:angry:
Lance Link
Banned
You're absolutely right. If you're happy with the way you spend your money, then you have every right to be. And my statement is in no way meant to be sarcastic.
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If my LO volunteers the information showing me exactly how the weekly dues and tavern fees are distributed, then it simply re-enforces his integrity.
The way our handicap system is designed, it bases your win against your opponent's pocketed balls (i.e. how bad you beat your opponent). There's really no way for an LO to manipulate it.
The LO DOES have the authority to raise or lower a player's average based on historical data (ex. if an "A" player's average lowers him to a "B" due to a string of run-outs against him). But to date, the LO has not needed to change an average. The handicap system levels itself off.
And our LO is completely open with ALL the captain's about the reasons he may consider raising or lowering ANY player's average.
My point is that our LO is forthcoming and upfront regarding league issues, and that's really there no way for him to manipulate the system to "send his favorite team to Vegas".
To date, I haven't seen a thread that bashes a BCA LO for what I see many APA threads bashing an LO for.
This past year I played on 3 teams, 2 8ball and 1 9ball. Combined we cleared over 5000 for the tournaments. Not to bad and teams that go to Vegas are given 6000 for 8ball and 5000 for 9ball. It varies by area and how the prize fund is distributed. Our LO ask for input on the prize fund and how it is distributed. We recommended to do away with the majority of the trophies and add the money to the prize fund. While these trophies can seem cheap their cost is not when you are buying a couple of thousand trophies it adds up quickly. But then again each area is different.