One Dollar

[OUSooner]

Maybe I wasn't concise enough with my points so I'll try to restate them. Yeah people gamble at golf. But nobody is going to wonder if Phil Mickelson dumped a putt on the 18th for a side bet putting his sponsors in the middle. If the sponsors even thought half as much a player would be blackballed. Golfers don't go on tv looking disheveled like they slept in their car the night before. All major pro sports try to weed out the chemical players because its bad for advertising.

What was the first thing that happened when Tiger had family troubles? Half his sponsors dropped him. Its not just the production value that counts. Jeanette Lee thrives with sponsors because the camera loves her. I'm sorry but in pool we have way more people that look like they belong beneath an underpass with a sign than we do that look like they belong on tv.

Pool does have an image problem and gambling is not part of it.

How about enforce a dress code? We used to see that on a lot of the old television matches even up to the 90's.

Drug testing? How many players would still be at the top without the chemicals? Drugs have been the traditional downfall of most of the top pool players.

The first thing the PGA did in the 50's when golf was televised on a regular basis and was attempting to gain the hold of "sport" status was tell Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus and the likes that they weren't allowed to smoke on camera or on the course, that they had to lose a little weight to be more tv friendly and that they needed to keep a clean image off the course.

The NFL and NBA have cracked down very hard on off the field allegations not because they are more moral, but because it drives away advertising dollars.

To attract outside advertising dollars you have to have a squeaky clean family friendly image. Willie Hoppe and Willie Mosconi offered that.

It seems though as pool has evolved the seamier side has taken over. Its even tough to keep a decent room going in most cities without this element elbowing its way in.

Cleaning up the entire ranks as a couple posters suggested wouldn't be a bad idea either.

My whole point is to make pool viable commercially you have to have a centralized authority and you have to make it tv friendly.

 

[Zbotiman]

2 different era's, might as well be different worlds!

Maybe I wasn't concise enough with my points so I'll try to restate them. Yeah people gamble at golf. But nobody is going to wonder if Phil Mickelson dumped a putt on the 18th for a side bet putting his sponsors in the middle. If the sponsors even thought half as much a player would be blackballed. Golfers don't go on tv looking disheveled like they slept in their car the night before. All major pro sports try to weed out the chemical players because its bad for advertising.

What was the first thing that happened when Tiger had family troubles? Half his sponsors dropped him. Its not just the production value that counts. Jeanette Lee thrives with sponsors because the camera loves her. I'm sorry but in pool we have way more people that look like they belong beneath an underpass with a sign than we do that look like they belong on tv.

Pool does have an image problem and gambling is not part of it.

How about enforce a dress code? We used to see that on a lot of the old television matches even up to the 90's.

Drug testing? How many players would still be at the top without the chemicals? Drugs have been the traditional downfall of most of the top pool players.

The first thing the PGA did in the 50's when golf was televised on a regular basis and was attempting to gain the hold of "sport" status was tell Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus and the likes that they weren't allowed to smoke on camera or on the course, that they had to lose a little weight to be more tv friendly and that they needed to keep a clean image off the course.

The NFL and NBA have cracked down very hard on off the field allegations not because they are more moral, but because it drives away advertising dollars.

To attract outside advertising dollars you have to have a squeaky clean family friendly image. Willie Hoppe and Willie Mosconi offered that.

It seems though as pool has evolved the seamier side has taken over. Its even tough to keep a decent room going in most cities without this element elbowing its way in.

Cleaning up the entire ranks as a couple posters suggested wouldn't be a bad idea either.

My whole point is to make pool viable commercially you have to have a centralized authority and you have to make it tv friendly.

Just for reference, I caddied on the woman's pro golf tour in the early eighties, it was all there, drugs (speed, on the course), parties, and sexual preference issues that still can't be addressed publicly today! The other thing is this, none of the USGA officials were really surprised by any of it. It was all just a bit closeted in front of some of them, but literally, everybody who was there, new who was into and doing what! And two of the darlings of that era have come out publicly, since and talked about some of those things on the record.
As for the comparison to men's Pro golf and the disheveled clothing look of pool players, you'd have to go back to the 40's to make any reasonable comparison between the two sports. And from the earliest days of Pro golf, Country Clubs were the stomping grounds of the Pro golfers and they were considered to be in the same light your painting modern Pro Pool players in. This is no defense for what can certainly be improved upon, but it's the appearance of "MONEY" that changes these types of issues and not the other way around.
By the way, Nicklaus and Palmer both smoked on the course through-out the 60's, 70's, and the eighties! The camera's just rarely showed that. As for temper tantrums on the course, (another foul practice) two words, Ray Floyd! Golf has a lot of skeletons hidden all over the place, it's just in human nature.
As for Tiger, 160 million dollars his rookie year from Nike alone. So how much does the loss of endorsements for, I dunno, maybe until he wins another major, really matter?
The T.V. executives know all of these things, they just don't care! When the money is right, they make it "ALL," just magically go away from the public's viewing EYE!

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe I wasn't concise enough with my points so I'll try to restate them. Yeah people gamble at golf. But nobody is going to wonder if Phil Mickelson dumped a putt on the 18th for a side bet putting his sponsors in the middle.

You sure about that? Wherever there is gambling there is cheating and hustling and dumping.

If the sponsors even thought half as much a player would be blackballed. Golfers don't go on tv looking disheveled like they slept in their car the night before. All major pro sports try to weed out the chemical players because its bad for advertising.

Seriously? Boxing is thought to be as crooked as it gets and it's not blackballed.

I don't know about golfers and their appearances. Right now though you can show us some evidence of professional pool players looking trashy by pointing us to the youtube videos. Surely there must be plenty that are easy to find.

What was the first thing that happened when Tiger had family troubles? Half his sponsors dropped him.

Not the half that counts.

Its not just the production value that counts. Jeanette Lee thrives with sponsors because the camera loves her.

Jeanette does well because she works very hard at it. She is a great businesswoman who goes after what she wants. Has zero to do with how photogenic she is. That's what makeovers and makeup are for.

I'm sorry but in pool we have way more people that look like they belong beneath an underpass with a sign than we do that look like they belong on tv.

Ouch. Well I have been in the game and business for 30 years now and I have to say that it's my opinion that the large majority of the professional players I deal with dress professionally when they are competing and also normally when they are not.

Pool does have an image problem and gambling is not part of it.

How about enforce a dress code? We used to see that on a lot of the old television matches even up to the 90's.

Again, show us some YouTube evidence. I think you can find nearly every televised match ever played on YouTube.

Drug testing? How many players would still be at the top without the chemicals? Drugs have been the traditional downfall of most of the top pool players.

That's a big statement. Top of what? Do you honestly think that professional pool players do more drugs than professional athletes in other well known sports?

Andre Agassi just wrote a memoir where he admits to taking meth and covering it up when he was caught.

The first thing the PGA did in the 50's when golf was televised on a regular basis and was attempting to gain the hold of "sport" status was tell Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus and the likes that they weren't allowed to smoke on camera or on the course, that they had to lose a little weight to be more tv friendly and that they needed to keep a clean image off the course.

I think that someone else already pointed out that golfers used to smoke on TV. I highly doubt that smoking on tv was a big deal in the everybody-smokes-on-tv 50s. Do you happen to have a source for this statement. In the 60s and 70s pool was on TV several times as well and you can see the players smoking away at their chairs. And I am not certain but I think that there is at least one Johnston city broadcast where a player is smoking at the table.

The NFL and NBA have cracked down very hard on off the field allegations not because they are more moral, but because it drives away advertising dollars.

And? So the idea is that is pool players were similarly controlled in their private lives that pool's "image" would be cleaned up? NFL/NBA athletes make millions per season and their participation is needed. So anything that takes away from them being able to perform is something that their employers have a right to regulate. When someone steps up to gurantee pool players millions per year per player then I am sure that most players will sign right up to carry a Bible with them every where they go.

To attract outside advertising dollars you have to have a squeaky clean family friendly image. Willie Hoppe and Willie Mosconi offered that.

Please. To attract advertising dollars you have to attract attention. Chain-smoking, angry, anal-retentive referee-punching Willie Mosconi was not squeaky clean. He was a mean, impolite and fiery champion who everyone wanted to see.

Willie Hoppe was sponsored by cigarette companies. Ralf Greenleaf was a drunk who packed a vaudeville theater day after day and made $2000 a week doing it. "$2,000.00 in 1920 had the same buying power as $22,851.75 in 2010." http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

And let's not forget about Minnesota Fats if you want to talk about people who aren't "tv material". Explain his success.

It seems though as pool has evolved the seamier side has taken over. Its even tough to keep a decent room going in most cities without this element elbowing its way in.

What element is that? Professional players?

Cleaning up the entire ranks as a couple posters suggested wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Who should do the cleaning? Who should be cleaned? How should it be done?

My whole point is to make pool viable commercially you have to have a centralized authority and you have to make it tv friendly.

Well I agree that pool needs someone strong enough to take the reins. As for making it TV friendly I'd say that most of the videos on YouTube show that pool is already TV friendly. The fact is though that TV is not pool friendly because pool has no consistent product to sell. Matchroom does ok producing and selling pool content. Just not in the USA.

Professional pool is a niche sport among hundreds of other sports/games trying to get on and stay on tv. And all of those sports are competing against all the made-up competitions like American Gladiator, Survivor, etc, which in turn are competing against everything else for the attention of the viewer. No matter what time of day it is whatever is on is competing not only with 500 other channels but also with on-demand content and the internet.

Up against that you have "pool" a game that professionals play so well that it looks easy to the average person. There is no magic bullet that will change this situation and it will only get worse and worse. The only shot pool has is to produce interesting content that they can sell. And if there are stories of gambling and hustling women and wine thrown in then all the better.

 

[OUSooner]

You're right guys. Absolutely nothing wrong with pools image. Lets just stay on the same path that we've been on the past 100 years and we'll be ok.

God forbid that we take sports that weren't as popular 75 years ago that have went mainstream now and follow their corporate model for success. Hell lets reinvent the wheel while we're at it.

Imagined or not. 50-75 years ago most of the major sports worked on making themselves tv friendly and the path of some sports diverged. The ones that worked on it went up. The others went down. Pool is one of the ones that took the dive. You have professionals now playing for exactly the same purse Willie Hoppe played for. Something is wrong there.

 

[JB Cases]

You're right guys. Absolutely nothing wrong with pools image. Lets just stay on the same path that we've been on the past 100 years and we'll be ok.

God forbid that we take sports that weren't as popular 75 years ago that have went mainstream now and follow their corporate model for success. Hell lets reinvent the wheel while we're at it.

Imagined or not. 50-75 years ago most of the major sports worked on making themselves tv friendly and the path of some sports diverged. The ones that worked on it went up. The others went down. Pool is one of the ones that took the dive. You have professionals now playing for exactly the same purse Willie Hoppe played for. Something is wrong there.

75 years ago there wasn't 500 channel satellite tv, the internet, everything on demand, sports bars with 37 screens broadcasting every major game and a spelling bee.

The reason pool was on top way back then is because pool rooms were where all the men hung out because they didn't have a lot of options. Now men hang out in other places.

The greatest player who ever lived, Willie Mosconi was on the road 200 days a year doing exhibitions to pay the bills. And he hated every minute of it.

Something is wrong with professional pool to be sure. But it's really not the professionals, not entirely. They are in a catch-22 because if they organize, which they should, and make demands then the few promoters that are there will bail. Why? Because the promoters that are there aren't making any money on pool. Very few of them break even at their events.

It's not easy to simply say follow the model of Golf or Tennis or the NFL. Those entities evolved over time and had products that they built a foundation on.

Pool is too diverse for starters. Now perhaps that can parlayed into an advantage, sort of like a track and field event. I don't know.

But basically the networks these days want you to bring them TV ready footage that they can edit as they wish. So my advice is to start there.

 

[JAM]

There is some excellent content in this thread, truly excellent.

Professional pool is a real conundrum. Leagues and regional tours are flourishing. Mainstream Americans, as an example, like to play pool recreationally, but they do not seem to be interested in professional pool whatsoever.

One reason is the plethora of pocket billiard games. The average Joe may know 8-ball, but he'd have no idea what one-pocket is and most likely would find it boring. I've seen this happen all too often in the pool rooms I used to frequent. Of course, they're closed now. We don't have any "real" pool rooms in my area anymore. They're basically bars.

Interestingly, bowling is as close to a comparison to pool as I can think of, but bowling doesn't have as many games to understand as pool. Golf and other sports are just not in the same ball park when it comes to analogies with pool.

The payouts in pro bowling tournaments are similar to pool, yet they have good industry sponsors. The Professional Bowlers Association (PBA) have an actual tour: PBA Regional Tour. In fact, they have a Regional Tour, a Seniors Tour, and a Women's Tour. Wow! :smile:

Here's an upcoming bowling event:

“Elite” TOC Berth at Stake as Sands Regency Hosts PBA Regional Players Invitational Dec. 14-16

SEATTLE, Wash. – Among the Professional Bowlers Association’s nearly 3,500 regional competitors, winning the Sands Regency PBA Regional Players Invitational ranks high on the wish list. But winning the 2010 edition at the National Bowling Stadium in Reno, Nev., Dec. 14-16 means an automatic berth in the “Elite” field for the 2011 PBA Tournament of Champions and a shot at a $250,000 prize.

The 42nd annual RPI is open to the top 25 points leaders in each of the PBA’s East, South, Central, Southwest, Midwest, West and Northwest Regions based upon their points rankings as of Sept. 30. The 2010 RPI also is open – for the first time – to PBA Senior players who finished in the top five in points in senior events within their regions, or who qualified in special senior regional qualifying events.

The PBA Regional Players Invitational – one of two major championships the PBA offers each year to its regional members – offers a $6,000 first prize (based on 80 entries) plus the “Elite” field berth for the Tournament of Champions at Red Rock Lanes in Las Vegas Jan. 16-22.

Check out the Bowler's Hall of Fame.

I haven't heard of any of them, and I'm sure those bowlers haven't heard of any of our BCA's Hall of Famers either. :grin-square:

Anyway, here's an example of a similar sport/game to pool. They're making it work. What do they have that we don't have? Therein may lie the answer. :wink:

 

[JAM]

Sheesh, look at those bowling sponsors:

Pepsi
One-a-Day Vitamins
Bayer Aspirin
USBC
Barbasol
Brunswick
Geico
Go RV-ing
Lumber Liquidators

They sure do have a mix of industry and non-industry sponsors, to include Brunswick. :wink:

 

[JB Cases]

One the PBA has that pool doesn't have is an Angel Investor. Rob Glaser of Real Networks and formerly of Microsoft owns the PBA as far as I know. Why? Because he once wanted to be a pro bowler but didn't have the skills and took a different career path.

A few years ago the PBA was nearly bankrupt.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/kingpin.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4530156.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Bowlers_Association

They certainly have a model that can be followed. 4300 members. Don't know what the dues are but at say $100 a year that's $430,000 right there that could be going to pay for a decent part of the office staff.

What do they have that we don't? Organization and money. We have the money in the form of 350,000 league players and BCA industry members.

We have zero concerted organization. The BCA is utterly useless. The leagues can't work together for the common good, the professionals don't trust anyone after the IPT and mulitple other promoters continually screw them.

Would be really awesome though if we at least had this

http://www.pba.com/

 

[JB Cases]

Wouldn't it be great to see stories like this

http://news.pba.com/post/2010/9/15/...her-Fairy-Tale-Winner-Like-Tom-Smallwood.aspx

 

[JAM]

Wouldn't it be great to see stories like this

http://news.pba.com/post/2010/9/15/...her-Fairy-Tale-Winner-Like-Tom-Smallwood.aspx

John, this is too funny. :grin-square:

Check out my AzBilliards thread from last year: Could This Happen to a Pool Player?

You know, the organizational structure you laid out is not that far off and certainly seems doable.

We just need to find a rich industry member who loves pool. Kevin Trudeau looked to be that person at one time, but the IPT reached too high from the starting gate. Who, pray tell, would do this for pool? There's gotta be an aspiring rich industry member who loves pool out there.

Here's Tom Smallwood, professional bowler.

 

[JB Cases]

John, this is too funny. :grin-square:

Check out my AzBilliards thread from last year: Could This Happen to a Pool Player?

You know, the organizational structure you laid out is not that far off and certainly seems doable.

We just need to find a rich industry member who loves pool. Kevin Trudeau looked to be that person at one time, but the IPT reached too high from the starting gate. Who, pray tell, would do this for pool? There's gotta be an aspiring rich industry member who loves pool out there.

Here's Tom Smallwood, professional bowler.

Ok but that shirt has to go. I agree with OU Sooner that no professional pool player should look like they are going hunting after the tournament.

 

[JAM]

Ok but that shirt has to go. I agree with OU Sooner that no professional pool player should look like they are going hunting after the tournament.

But at least he tucks his shirt in during the high-profile TV events.

BTW, congratulations to Luc Salvas for once again winning the recent speed pool challenge.

 

[geno]

I was recently reminded about the orignial concept of the APA at its origin. One dollar was withdrawn from entry fees or tour membership (not sure) and placed in a fund for PROFESSIONAL pool.

Mike Janis of the then-Viking Tour era started the N.U.T.S. for regional tours to, again, hold back one dollar from all entry fees to be put in a fund for players to compete in professional events, e.g., U.S. Open, Skins Billiards Championship, Super Billiards Expo Pro Championship, et cetera. N.U.T.S. stood for National Unified Tour -- something or other. I can't remember.

My first thought is, gee, what happened to all those one dollars collected from N.U.T.S. and the APA. That's a lot of cheesenips over the years. :wink:

Have the leagues and regional tours thrown in the towel on professional pool? Some regional tours have now reconstructed their tours to cater to to amateurs.

I believe this recent trend to accommodate amateur-level competitions is the result of professional-caliber players winning the bulk of these regional tour events, due to the lack of professional competitions. The pros want to make a decent living at being, well, like the name implies, a professional pool player. :grin-square:

The existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. Aside from sponsored players like Johnny Archer and Shane Van Boening, very few can afford to travel the globe today to represent the United States. For Shane and Johnny, that's great; they're going to always be in like Flynn, especially if pool makes it to the Olympics.

Charlie Williams and the Dragon crew seem to be doing okay, and AzBilliards has graciously created the professional player fund. Is this enough to help the American pool constituency be alive and well? I do applaud everybody's efforts for sure.

Is this one-dollar tax a viable platform to promote professional pool? Any other ideas?

Jam, I believe Mike Janis retired to the Bahamas with all that money .... LOL

But Honestly, the N.U.T.S. was a short lived dream that only lasted a few months if that and definitely not the years you mentioned. I am positive only 3 tours jumped in (Viking, Joss, Planet-Pool) even though there was another that tour joined the system but they never sent in the money to the system and basically screwed their players and never gave them anything back as I understand it.

Of the 3 tours, Viking, Joss and PP those three tours each had events with prizes for their players in there respective regions and 100% if not more was given back to the participating players through entry fees to other events. I know some of the players got free entry fees and hotel rooms to that years Derby City Classic.

I thought the N.U.T.S. was a great idea but became out of reach when most tours would not work together for the benefit of the sport.

Who knows, maybe someday someone will be able to put something together like this and make it work. Let's hope anyway.

 

[dedstroke38]

This is one of the most interesting threads in my opinion. More than anything I want pool to grow and slowly get to where it can support "pros" comfortably financially. But in my opinion we will NEVER find a solution that works in writing. We can be talking about all these possibilities whether amateurs help fund, local or regional leagues and tours help or we find a another giant financial backer (i.e. Kevin Trudeau) and we will never find the perfect answer just theorizing. If we could it would have happened already. We just need to start putting multiple parts of these ideas into affect and it may take trial and error for a couple years but if we can get off the ground I have faith in this game and its players that it can be done.

 

[Zbotiman]

"all here is not just theory!"

75 years ago there wasn't 500 channel satellite tv, the internet, everything on demand, sports bars with 37 screens broadcasting every major game and a spelling bee.

The reason pool was on top way back then is because pool rooms were where all the men hung out because they didn't have a lot of options. Now men hang out in other places.

The greatest player who ever lived, Willie Mosconi was on the road 200 days a year doing exhibitions to pay the bills. And he hated every minute of it.

Something is wrong with professional pool to be sure. But it's really not the professionals, not entirely. They are in a catch-22 because if they organize, which they should, and make demands then the few promoters that are there will bail. Why? Because the promoters that are there aren't making any money on pool. Very few of them break even at their events.

It's not easy to simply say follow the model of Golf or Tennis or the NFL. Those entities evolved over time and had products that they built a foundation on.

Pool is too diverse for starters. Now perhaps that can parlayed into an advantage, sort of like a track and field event. I don't know.

But basically the networks these days want you to bring them TV ready footage that they can edit as they wish. So my advice is to start there.

"Something is wrong with professional pool to be sure. But it's really not the professionals, not entirely. They are in a catch-22 because if they organize, which they should, and make demands then the few promoters that are there will bail. Why? Because the promoters that are there aren't making any money on pool. Very few of them break even at their events."

Well said John, I must admit, I seem to agree with almost all of what you've posted here, because it "REEKS of reality!" The quote of yours at the top of this paragraph especially!
I've been involved in Pro pool again now, for the last 7 years, after a layoff of about 11. The reason I bring this up, is that I've been around all my old associates since I've returned and quite a few things have changed! The players are more socially well rounded and I might add, dress a whole lot better at the major events than they ever did before. Greg Sullivan has fulfilled a promise that he made to all the players back in the eighties, that he would create a table that played like a Gold-crown and could be set up in 3 days and torn down in 2. When a number of us heard this in 84, I don't really think any of us believed "the bank player who sold jewelry." He followed through with that vision and today, I believe, we have the best playing table ever made! It also allows a Pro Tour to take place in the world and be played on the best equipment, in the premier locations, if the money is there to support it. We also have one of the best and most responsive promoter's the pro players have ever seen. And then there's Pat Fleming, who has directly been responsible for raising the level of play with each of the important games, thanks to the great Accu-Stats "public" library! Non of these things existed when I left pool in 86 and today, we have a sport with more true Pool playing champions, than ever before because of these men and their dedication to their personal vision.
When you look at the Superstars of our sport, personally, I think they present themselves as a whole very well! Certainly that's true of the likes of Shane Van Boening, Ralf Souquet, Mika Immonen, Thorsten Hohmann, Cory Deuel, Lee Van Corteza, and most of the lesser known players of the same era, just to name a few. Really this generation doesn't need our criticism they just need our help and support.
This sport needs the vision of a Mark Griffin to establish a consistent Tour schedule with a 5, 10, and 20 year plan for growth. His U.S.A. pool Leagues and pro Pool tour vision may not seem to be everyone's best hope but just imagine how far reaching this man's vision could have gone with Trudeau money behind it instead of behind the IPT. Organizing, "IS" needed badly among these GIANTS of our sport. But I can tell you this for sure, "these men respect people who get things accomplished with out fanfare!" When things materialize we must support them from with in, then and probably, only then, the money will follow.
After the posts I put up the other night, I was troubled by a few of the comments directed at issues Promoters and Players alike, feel hamstrung to live with, but are absolutely helpless to change right now. These professionals are doing the best they can, with very little to go on but, hope and personal vision!
However, these posts illustrate a very valid concept, there's something "we" can do to support our sport from with-in. Don't we owe ourselves that opportunity "for the love of the game" alone! Pool may not be able to compete for the big money over-night, but loving what we do, to establish a strong foundation, for this sports future, will show advertisers and investors alike, "our" character and devotion, and that could be our best hope for this sports salvation in the real world!

 

[Snapshot9]

I don't believe

that anything will fly until we have a National Pool Organization that sets rules and regulations for all the Pool Organizations below it. We have to have a guiding light for the development of the sport to take off.

The NPO could establish standards to be followed, unify support to get Pool into the Olympics, support getting Pool into schools (High School anyway) as an intermural sport, support kid leagues, establish a Pro tour, establish defined levels of Pool for regional tours and pro tour(s).

For this level of operation though, it would probably take Congress to establish it as the governing body to all things in Cue Sports.

 

[Black-Balled]

You sure about that?

...as crooked as it gets and it's not blackballed..

It is not!!
Or is it...?