Values at the pool tournament

[BRKNRUN]

Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.

If you are doing this for a research project...Why not just try and contact Barry Berhman? The US open probably had some entrants that match your criteria....

The other costs may not match up with what you list...but that is part of the adjustments you will make from the research.

 

[justnum]

justnum:

This "theoretical tournament" you speak of; it wouldn't perchance be a basis for a forthcoming reply to JCIN's experience-laden reply to you in another thread, where he asks you to run your numbers again, would it?

-Sean

The numbers involved at the US open are significantly larger. They might require someone with a mastery of multiplication and addition. I am just thinking in small terms. And I am thinking about the style of play I would want to face in a tournament..

 

[allen_jr]

Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything. Billiard players have a history and they are reminded of it constantly.

Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?

 

[Cory in DC]

If you did have, say a $5000 entry fee, with 32 players. That gives you a $160,000 prize pool. If you just paid 16 players (win one match, you're paid) that would be an average of $10,000 each. Thats a $5000 profit for a 1-day event. Of course, no one wants to do that, so suppose:

You're right that no one wants to pay it. That's why this would make more sense if it were based on regional tournaments or something like that where first place wins a trip to the show. Just like feeder tournaments in Poker. You might even need two layers -- $50 tournaments or league seasons to get into the $500 tournament, which can get you into the $5,000 tournament.

The problem is, that would take a lot of organization, which isn't even close to existing. And credibility of the organization running the ultimate tournament, or else people would fear that the qualifier buy-ins would just disappear (as in the IPT qualifiers).

Cory

 

[justnum]

Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?

Dental value of coca cola is low.

Nutritional value of coca cola is dominantly sugar.

Do you know who coca cola employs? Do you know how much they pay in wages in third world nations? Do you know anything about how it is made? Sure coca cola is not a chemical processing plant but what by-products does that company create and how does it ensure they are not polluting the environment they operate in?



You know what they pay you to know and that is coca cola is worth repeating in purchase and taste.

 

[allen_jr]

Dental value of coca cola is low.

Nutritional value of coca cola is dominantly sugar.

Do you know who coca cola employs? Do you know how much they pay in wages in third world nations? Do you know anything about how it is made? Sure coca cola is not a chemical processing plant but what by-products does that company create and how does it ensure they are not polluting the environment they operate in?



You know what they pay you to know and that is coca cola is worth repeating in purchase and taste.

You're missing the point, and changing the topic. By your logic why do you think Tylenol spends millions on marketing? Or Dove soap, or Tide detergent?

I suggest maybe you do some general research on what marketing is and does. You have some interesting ideas on tournament formats, but your logic and thoughts behind promoting events is a bit off.

Again, if promoting tournaments was so easy and lucrative, as you suggested it was, lots more people would do it and we would have lots of millionaire poolplayers like lots of other professional athletes. There's a reason we don't, and it has nothing to do with promoters keeping soda and popcorn profits...

 

[justnum]

You're missing the point, and changing the topic. By your logic why do you think Tylenol spends millions on marketing? Or Dove soap, or Tide detergent?

I suggest maybe you do some general research on what marketing is and does. You have some interesting ideas on tournament formats, but your logic and thoughts behind promoting events is a bit off.

Again, if promoting tournaments was so easy and lucrative, as you suggested it was, lots more people would do it and we would have lots of millionaire poolplayers like lots of other professional athletes. There's a reason we don't, and it has nothing to do with promoters keeping soda and popcorn profits...

The IPT ran several ads at several tournaments, billiard magazines and novelty sports cable networks. Those investments got players but not so many fans. The billiard community is smarter than advertising.

It doesn't take much to impress a high schooler, all you need is muscles, skin or luxury, that's why there are multimillionaire athletes because they cater to the young market. The billiards community is not a young market, it is maybe the most experienced market in the pie.

 

[chefjeff]

Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything. Billiard players have a history and they are reminded of it constantly.

I don't understand your point. I was pointing out that until there are more, consistent fans for pool, the money won't be there to make a living at it. Marketing is the getting of fans...or customers, if you wish.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Roger Long]

justnum:

Please let me know the date and time of your tournament. I don't want to miss it on the live stream.

Roger

 

[allen_jr]

The IPT ran several ads at several tournaments, billiard magazines and novelty sports cable networks. Those investments got players but not so many fans. The billiard community is smarter than advertising.

It doesn't take much to impress a high schooler, all you need is muscles, skin or luxury, that's why there are multimillionaire athletes because they cater to the young market. The billiards community is not a young market, it is maybe the most experienced market in the pie.

We need marketing to attract fans from within and, more importantly, outside of the current "billiard community"...

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of NFL and NBA fans that are not highschoolers, and millions of dollars are spent marketing to these people. Also, there are lots of consumers that are not highschoolers that Coca Cola, Tylenol, Dove, Proctor & Gamble, BMW, Ford, etc.. market to. Yes, people in the market are smart, but marketing and advertising does work, and millions is spent on it because it works.

There is a lot that needs to be done, it is not as simple as you think. I do not know all the answers either, so I am not trying to pretend like I do.

What I do know is that someone with lots of money and knowledge needs to do a lot of work to help make pool cross over into mainstream attention. I wish the answer was as simple as you seem to think it is.

 

[stljohnny]

My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???

I was going to ask the same thing... considering the numbers that i heard were in attendance for the US OPEN were under 500 people. If the open, arguably the biggest tournament in the nation, can't even get a thousand people...

 

[allen_jr]

I was going to ask the same thing... considering the numbers that i heard were in attendance for the US OPEN were under 500 people. If the open, arguably the biggest tournament in the nation, can't even get a thousand people...

Very true... I believe the future involves live streaming at a nominal cost to generate more money for events, as well as hosting qualifiers to funnel players into larger events so he collective prize pool can be bigger...

For example... Host a 32 player event, $50 entry fee... this is a $1600 prize pool. The winner could win a $1000 entry into a bigger event, and the other $600 could be divided however you see fit. The main point is to funnel bigger entry fees into a bigger event. Suppose the "bigger event" is a $1000 entry fee, 32 player event. Players could buy-in directly for $1000, or win a local qualifier at their pool room for $50.

Of course, adjust the numbers as you see fit. Make the qualifier $100 and the "bigger event" a $2000 buy in event. So now, you start having tournaments with bigger prize pools without "added money". Yes, having $25,000 added events is great, but the problem is that the money has to come from somewhere, and it's not easy to get. People seem to think promoters can get $25,000 to add real easy, but it's not. The money in the pot has to come from within. Once we have bigger prize pools, we get more attention, once we get more attention, we attract bigger mainstream sponsors... the goal is down the line, but we need to take steps now on our own to get there.

Imagine having a tourney with 32 players, $64,000 in the pot, and every player "won" their way in for $100...

 

[Marie's husband]

Very true... I believe the future involves live streaming at a nominal cost to generate more money for events, as well as hosting qualifiers to funnel players into larger events so he collective prize pool can be bigger...

For example... Host a 32 player event, $50 entry fee... this is a $1600 prize pool. The winner could win a $1000 entry into a bigger event, and the other $600 could be divided however you see fit. The main point is to funnel bigger entry fees into a bigger event. Suppose the "bigger event" is a $1000 entry fee, 32 player event. Players could buy-in directly for $1000, or win a local qualifier at their pool room for $50.

Of course, adjust the numbers as you see fit. Make the qualifier $100 and the "bigger event" a $2000 buy in event. So now, you start having tournaments with bigger prize pools without "added money". Yes, having $25,000 added events is great, but the problem is that the money has to come from somewhere, and it's not easy to get. People seem to think promoters can get $25,000 to add real easy, but it's not. The money in the pot has to come from within. Once we have bigger prize pools, we get more attention, once we get more attention, we attract bigger mainstream sponsors... the goal is down the line, but we need to take steps now on our own to get there.

Imagine having a tourney with 32 players, $64,000 in the pot, and every player "won" their way in for $100...

I do have a question and it has to do with entry fee's. What is the highest entry fee tournament within the United States?

I know the US open has numerous local events within the Virginia area that you can win your entry through, but never heard of any promotions like that outside of Virgina.

Also, I remember the IPT used to hold qualifiers and I remember a lot of those didnt even come close to getting 16 players showing up for them but I think the qualifiers were pretty spendy for the basic player and if they would have used your $50 entry fee and tried to fill a full field, then it may have worked better..


Oh, here is something interesting, I watched a tourney this weekend on a stream. Had 118 players, $40 entry fee, prize pool with Calcuttas was over $40k. Now I dont know if Calcuttas are legal or not within all states but in a lot of states they are. On the Stream there was always a crowd around the streaming tables and it seemed like a lot of people hung out there to watch because they had there money invested within the tourney. So why can't we set up a legal auction for players within a pro event? Has it ever been done legaly? Has it ever been promoted using the calcutta as a promotion tool?

 

[bfdlad]

Not sure if anyone has heard of the Magnificent 7 that I have been working on but to the OP, I have done alot of research and have an agreement with 7 Legends. I know the Magnificent 7 event is different but I also know what it costs to make everyone happy. I appreciate you trying to do something like this but your numbers are way off.
Unless you are a millionaire and just want to do this and arewilling to go in the hole on it you should relook at what you are doing. I am not being negative just saying.

 

[Dartman]

Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?

For the same reason that Budweiser spends megabucks but I'd be interested in your answer to your question.

Of course, difference is, anyone with half a brain can win a poker tournament. Pool is vastly more difficult.

Is this a serious statement?
Have you ever made a final poker table in a 3 day event playing 12-14 hrs a day with 800+ players?
More difficult then you think.

 

[justnum]

We need marketing to attract fans from within and, more importantly, outside of the current "billiard community"...

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of NFL and NBA fans that are not highschoolers, and millions of dollars are spent marketing to these people. Also, there are lots of consumers that are not highschoolers that Coca Cola, Tylenol, Dove, Proctor & Gamble, BMW, Ford, etc.. market to. Yes, people in the market are smart, but marketing and advertising does work, and millions is spent on it because it works.

There is a lot that needs to be done, it is not as simple as you think. I do not know all the answers either, so I am not trying to pretend like I do.

What I do know is that someone with lots of money and knowledge needs to do a lot of work to help make pool cross over into mainstream attention. I wish the answer was as simple as you seem to think it is.

If you are serious about making an effort your ideas are a good start. A thorough proposal or identification of problem and possible solutions need to be developed more. Please continue to do research until you have a conclusion for your idea with evidence to support it.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

justnum,

I'm guessing here, but in my opinion you've probably never been to a pool tournament with over 32 players.

Have you ever been to the Derby City Classic? 1200 players for 9 days. Can you even imagine having a 9 day event with 1200 players? Spectators average around 250-300 per day.

I'm also guessing you probably don't know who Allen_Jr is.

You seem to be guessing a lot about the details of promoting a tournament.

First off, the Promoter hires the Tournament Director to run the tournament. The tournament is the format that the players follow to determine the champion.

Everything else is handled by the Promoter; getting the sponsors for added money, the venue, the tables, advertising and staff.

If you are serious about making an effort your ideas are a good start. A thorough proposal or identification of problem and possible solutions need to be developed more. Please continue to do research until you have a conclusion for your idea with evidence to support it.

 

[allen_jr]

I do have a question and it has to do with entry fee's. What is the highest entry fee tournament within the United States?

I know the US open has numerous local events within the Virginia area that you can win your entry through, but never heard of any promotions like that outside of Virgina.

Also, I remember the IPT used to hold qualifiers and I remember a lot of those didnt even come close to getting 16 players showing up for them but I think the qualifiers were pretty spendy for the basic player and if they would have used your $50 entry fee and tried to fill a full field, then it may have worked better..


Oh, here is something interesting, I watched a tourney this weekend on a stream. Had 118 players, $40 entry fee, prize pool with Calcuttas was over $40k. Now I dont know if Calcuttas are legal or not within all states but in a lot of states they are. On the Stream there was always a crowd around the streaming tables and it seemed like a lot of people hung out there to watch because they had there money invested within the tourney. So why can't we set up a legal auction for players within a pro event? Has it ever been done legaly? Has it ever been promoted using the calcutta as a promotion tool?

I'm not sure what the highest entry fee is nationally. I do know that we tried an event with a $5000 entry fee, and set-up a qualifier system that poolrooms could use to get people in the event for as little as $25. The system would work, and did in some limited situations... our primary problem was lack of funds and manpower to properly promote the event at the local level, which is where it needs to happen.

We did get 12 players for this event, at $5000 each. The players were:
Dennis Orcollo
Corey Deuel
Francisco Bustamante
Shane Van Boening
Marlon Manalo
Daryl Peach
Dennis Hatch
Stevie Moore
Tony "T-Rex" Chohan
Johnny Archer
Matt Krah
Evan Broxmeyer

Yes, we got a much lower turnout than expected, but the players got to play plenty. Format was like this: players played each 25 games to get a score. Not a "best of" or "race to" anything. So the score could be 24-1 or 13-12. However many games they won was their score, and then they moved on to play another player based on scores. Their cumulative score carried with them throughout the first round, so that end of round 1, they had played every other player, and had played a total of 150 games. After round one, Orcollo was in the lead with 93 wins (26 Break n runs)..

There is a bit more to the format, and we made some changes (before event started) due to the low turnout. When it was over, Corey Deuel was the winner. I don't remember the exact payout structure, but it was based on the $60,000 in entry fees and we tried to make sure most players got something back, not an all-or-nothing event..

Anyway, sorry I am not getting into it more, its just a lot to type (and read)

As for calcuttas, I don't know much about the legality and how public they can be made. I was always under the impression that they were not really legal...

 

[allen_jr]

For the same reason that Budweiser spends megabucks but I'd be interested in your answer to your question.

I know why the companies spend lots of money, are you asking me about Budweiser? My question and response was in reply to justnum saying that "Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything"

I'm pretty confident that consumers know about Budweiser, yet they continue to spend millions on marketing efforts. I am not questioning why companies spend lots of money. It also may be of interest to note that I have a bachelors degree in Marketing. Not that I am some sort of expert on it, but justnum seems to have a weak grasp on what it is and it's importance.

Is this a serious statement?
Have you ever made a final poker table in a 3 day event playing 12-14 hrs a day with 800+ players?
More difficult then you think.

Yes, this is a serious statement.
I have made several final tables, at the Borgata, the Taj, the Mirage, the WSOP (non-bracelet events, but daily events running concurrently in the room), and online on stars and tilt. I do know that poker requires some skill, but not nearly as much as pool, and luck is a huge factor. No, I have not made the final table of a 3 day event, but I've only played in 1 of them, and I made it to the end of day 2.

I admit I was exaggerating slightly, but my point was this:
Any person who knows the basic fundamentals of poker could sit down and play heads up with the best in the world (whoever you decide that to be) and have a chance to win. Say a player with "half a brain" moves all in with 2-2 and Phil Ivey call with AA. Of course, a 2 rolls off on the flop and the guy wins. Does this make him a better player than Ivey? Of course not, but my point is he can win.

This absolutely will never happen in pool. Maybe 1 game, sure. But you take an APA 4 and play against Shane race to 11. Do you think the APA 4 will ever win this race? It will never happen. Probably never happen with an APA 7 either.

You could play poker with the cards face up and still not guarantee to be a winner, thats my point. There's a huge luck factor.

 

[justnum]

Spectators at a pool tournament might be better off behind a plate of glass. Especially the ones that chatter like freezing sailors on a winter morning.