Jesus, dude. Like the sound of your own voice much? I'll wait for the Cliff Notes.GetMeThere said:
pj
chgo
Why CTE is silly
- Thread starter GetMeThere
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pj
chgo
Tap, tap, tap...
If you had read all of the "aiming system" threads over the years (which I certainly would not have recommended), you might think differently. I've created as much "stink" as any other user (except PJ, maybe).
I think the benefits described are real. I also think they apply to almost any "aiming system." You should know by now that I am not a "believer" or "supporter" of CTE or any align-and-pivot aiming system (except FHE and BHE, which really aren't aiming systems; they are methods used to compensate for squirt and swerve). However, I can see how CTE might help some people, based on the list of benefits.
Sincerely,
Dave
PS: GetMeThere, you seem to have some good ideas and solid opinions at times, and I hope you become a permanent part of AZB; however, I hope you realize that you deserve the warning from "Mr. Wilson." You have "crossed the line" far too many times. You are obviously smart and creative, but you have a lot to learn about interpersonal communication, tact, restraint, and respect, IMO. This is also true for many other members on this forum (including me at times), but you have been a relentless "poster child" for these traits. Again, I hope you become a better "citizen" of AZB and become better able to contribute what you have to offer. People don't listen very well when they feel like they are constantly being insulted and disrespected.
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It's a good thing that there's not any women AZb'ers following this thread. They'd just LOVE the above quote
.Maniac
All I know, as someone who just sees the shot, is that when I play around with these systems my shot making goes all to hell. If you were to chart it it would look like a bowling ball falling off the kitchen table.
My theory is that just doing it vs employing a system, uses different sides of your brain. So, in a sense, if you're messing with something like CTE, you really could be permanently hampering your shot making, if that side is not your optimal side when it comes to playing pool.
Lou Figueroa
FWIW, I've been reading the groups for a lonnnng time and I don't believe GMT is a previously banned agent. His style is too distinctive. He does, however, remind me a little bit of a poster that frequented RSB many moons ago, but he ain't him either.
Lou Figueroa
Pool is a visual-motor endeavor. When it comes to playing pool Visual/Spatial Intelligence and Bodily/Kinesthetic Intelligence trump all other intelligences. Mathematical and Verbal/Linguistic Intelligences are very much secondary to the visual-motor skills that any proficient player brings to the table.
There are lots of ways to be smart.. but when it comes to playing pool the very best way to be smart is visually and physically. The very best players in our sport probably can’t explain the intricacies of what they see and how they execute.
I have personally worked with pro players that cannot explain what their visual and physical intelligences have learned over their million plus shots. There are successful CTE users on this forum that cannot explain the reason for their CTE success in a mathematical manner or in written form but that does not mean their visual-motor skills are not getting the job done. There was no requirement for Michael Jordan to be able to explain his visual and physical performances.
The challenge of aiming is mind-boggling! On a 9 foot table with 5000 square inches of playing surface there are literally a zillion shots. Aiming is a major task for any player and typically one becomes masterful in aiming over time by their million plus shots. Pro players have developed a perception and physical moves that allow them to take their cue to center cue ball with an accurate aim.
Decades ago a brilliant man with a dream set forth to unlock the challenges of aiming in the game of pocket billiards. The driving force behind this man’s years of labor can be described as visual and physical. Over that span of years he sought to understand the visual and physical nature of how one performed particularly in the area of aiming. This man came to know what many professional players were seeing when they could not explain it themselves. The man that figured all this out is Hal Houle. Hal stands alone as the one man in the history of our sport that solved the mystery of aiming. And he did it with these intelligences: Visual/Spatial and Bodily Kinesthetic. In short, Hal learned to describe in words the perceptions of accurate aiming and the associated physical movements.
One night last April after years of working with CTE I discovered for myself what Hal Houle figured out over 5 decades ago. Yes, it’s amazing that the information has remained unknown for all these years.
For years Hal told anyone that would listen; just see Center-to-Edge and whack it and if the ball went then you did it right. Hal understood that one’s visual and physical nature would take them to the finish line in time if they had a sincere interest.
One day Hal Houle will be hugely recognized for his achievement in the area of aiming!
Stan Shuffett
There are lots of ways to be smart.. but when it comes to playing pool the very best way to be smart is visually and physically. The very best players in our sport probably can’t explain the intricacies of what they see and how they execute.
I have personally worked with pro players that cannot explain what their visual and physical intelligences have learned over their million plus shots. There are successful CTE users on this forum that cannot explain the reason for their CTE success in a mathematical manner or in written form but that does not mean their visual-motor skills are not getting the job done. There was no requirement for Michael Jordan to be able to explain his visual and physical performances.
The challenge of aiming is mind-boggling! On a 9 foot table with 5000 square inches of playing surface there are literally a zillion shots. Aiming is a major task for any player and typically one becomes masterful in aiming over time by their million plus shots. Pro players have developed a perception and physical moves that allow them to take their cue to center cue ball with an accurate aim.
Decades ago a brilliant man with a dream set forth to unlock the challenges of aiming in the game of pocket billiards. The driving force behind this man’s years of labor can be described as visual and physical. Over that span of years he sought to understand the visual and physical nature of how one performed particularly in the area of aiming. This man came to know what many professional players were seeing when they could not explain it themselves. The man that figured all this out is Hal Houle. Hal stands alone as the one man in the history of our sport that solved the mystery of aiming. And he did it with these intelligences: Visual/Spatial and Bodily Kinesthetic. In short, Hal learned to describe in words the perceptions of accurate aiming and the associated physical movements.
One night last April after years of working with CTE I discovered for myself what Hal Houle figured out over 5 decades ago. Yes, it’s amazing that the information has remained unknown for all these years.
For years Hal told anyone that would listen; just see Center-to-Edge and whack it and if the ball went then you did it right. Hal understood that one’s visual and physical nature would take them to the finish line in time if they had a sincere interest.
One day Hal Houle will be hugely recognized for his achievement in the area of aiming!
Stan Shuffett
I can only hope, Stan.
There are few people that make a lasting impression on you during your life and Hal is one of them. Not just because of his aiming systems but because of the person he is. I am thankful to have met and spent time with Hal.
Well, the thing is, I'm NOT a reporter of posts--I didn't even report the post by SpiderWebComm in which he said he would like to feed me arsenic.
But some people are quick reporters. So perhaps you're hearing LOTS about "my attacks" on others, and nothing about the MANY MANY, rather unfair, swipes that are constantly taken at me--which I usually just brush aside.
The main "Cliff Note" is that the one thing you've swallowed, hook, line, and sinker is the "phenomenon" of people being helped by CTE in spite of itself/themselves.
I question that phenomenon, that otherwise seems so well accepted around here by CTE detractors. Evidence for such a thing is VERY difficult to acquire, even formally, with experienced survey designers, etc. But by word of mouth it's essentially impossible. Not even counting the fact that people's self-assessment of ability itself is notoriously inaccurate--on ALL things.
The proof for such a CTE "epiphenomenon" is essentially non-existent, as far as I can tell. Yet you and Dr. Dave seem to feel it's the ONE THING which must be acknowledged without question about CTE.
Have you hoodwinked yourselves?
For what it's worth, I didn't report you. Mr. Wilson is fully capable of reading on his own. Heck, I haven't even red repped you yet, although I have been very tempted.:wink:
Excellent post Stan! You put in words very well what some of us have been failing at trying to say or get across. Thank you.
Well Dave, you have at least some business interest. And you've made ENORMOUS efforts in compiling your website, which wouldn't do well to become "pariah-ville."
I have no special interest, so I have the freedom to call things as I see them.
I wonder, regarding your careful manners: Why haven't you seen fit to admonish all the MANY MANY MANY people who have stepped into the thread only to make an offhand cutting remark or a personal insult to me? Or for that matter, the many regular posters, like Neil for example, whose introduction to the thread began with insults toward me and my "calculations?"
Any close and objective examination of the first few pages of thread will show that I was the LAST person to start biting--and it was a response to people biting, unfairly, me first.
Why nothing to say about that?
Well, thanks for saying that. In that case I have to wonder why Mr. Wilson has not seen fit to slap down the many OTHER people here who have been VERY rude on occasion. If you're being fair, I know you can't deny that has happened.
So, since CTE CAN'T work, and since you now say that we can't even be fooling ourselves and actually shooting just by feel and experience, then we must all be hypnotized by the mere phrase "CTE" into thinking that we are actually making balls. This system is even better than we thought it was!!!! For, not only do we think we are making balls, but our opponents do too!
What a great endorsement for CTE! Use it, and you never have to make a ball again, no more "yips", no more dogging shots, ect. Even your OPPONENT will think the balls are going in!!!
I think it should be noted that Ghost Ball, or any other aiming method, could be inserted where this says "Center-to-Edge," and the quote would be just as true.
Roger
See, there's your reading problem again, I didn't insult your calculations. I DID say that the chart , for the purpose you made it, was ridiculous. And, I later explained why I said that.
For the record, read your first post again, I think EVERYONE but you will say that you bit first.:wink:
I agree. But the issue here is much simpler and more objective: Does CTE ACTUALLY produce an aiming solution for shots? There, the question isn't about human performance, but about simple geometry. And the question DESERVES an answer--which has NOT been forthcoming throughout all the years of bickering.
After a point, it really does become necessary to ask WHY.
I personally would enjoy nothing more than seeing that happen. Such a story resonates STRONGLY with me personally.
But it won't happen by obfuscation and slippery argument. If the guy had something, it should be possible to lay it out and see what's good about it.
Others here, much more experienced than I with this very long argument--and with pool and pool instruction in general--report having been UNABLE to see the gem in Hal's work after giving it an open hearing.
How about if we start with a SIMPLE observation and assertion: I have found explicit statements in Hal's work (and no contradiction from recent interpreters) that knowing where the pocket is has NO VALUE WHATSOEVER to coming up with a pocketing solution; that it's only necessary to deal with the CB and OB. That seems ridiculous to me on it's face.
Can you offer, first, confirmation that knowing where the pocket is has no importance in CTE (barring the simple need to know whether to hit the OB to the left or the right), and second, an explanation of how one can calculate where to hit an OB to send it to the pocket, if the relative positions of OB and pocket are unknown?**
**I'm aware you have a DVD coming that, hopefully, would answer those questions. But answering them here wouldn't give away the whole can of beans. If you WERE to answer then convincingly right now, right here, I think there's a good chance that your DVD sales might actually SOAR in response--and you would find that nothing would be given away so that people wouldn't feel the need to purchase.
Heck, if you can explain here how balls are pocketed without needing to know where the pocket is, I'll buy TWO!
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That's exactly right. If we're just going to hear now that CTE is simply encouragement to get you out there and whack at balls, and learn how to hit them, then....
Well, I DO say that the CTE that I've been able to get information about, "can't" work.
I also say that I have NO EVIDENCE that the report that the "real reason" that CTE "works" for people is that it somehow "allows them" to simply play by feel. I've certainly heard it REPEATED many times. But merely seeing the same people repeat it over and over doesn't make it a source of objective evidence.
I'll repeat that such evidence (properly gathered and analyzed) is VERY difficult to reliably come by--in fields other than pool. I see NO facility among pool players for reliably gathering such "survey" information in a manner that would be useful to make conclusions.
It's difficult to sensibly talk about things without facts to base discussion on. So far, the only thing close to a "fact" that I can come up with regarding CTE is that it doesnt' seem to have a reliable geometric basis for calculating aiming solutions.
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