Man charged for trading ivory
- Thread starter Gmanpoke
- Start date
This is the first and last time I'll speak my thoughts...mostly in response to the rhetoric spewed forth in previous posts.
Ivory has been used for centuries as a sign of royalty, wealth, and in some cultures the material is considered more valuable than gold. So naturally people today desire have Ivory used for any white areas of their cue. Also, the material is gorgeous as are most of the exotic woods used in cue making.
Now, I will state that I am COMPLETELY against the illegal killing/poaching of these majestic creatures, however I AM AWARE that much of the ivory traded across the world today comes from stockpiles of ivory tusks that are found out in the field from elephants that died of natural causes or at the claws of some big cat. Do you think the people of African nations where elephants reside just leave the stuff laying on the ground or burn it? PLEAAAASE. There is a TON of pre-ban ivory still in existance that hasn't even come into the U.S. yet. So the rarity of this material is not so much as it seems. The ban of 1989 was put into place to monitor and help to control the populations at that time, but if you look at recent numbers of elephants, they are becoming more and more numerous as the years goes by. Actually, in some areas elephants are becoming too abundant and causing locals problems (similar to bears and deer here in the states!).
So...for those opposed to killing just for sport and for ivory, I commend you on keeping the topic alive, however I cannot support those who feel that death of an animal comes even close to comparing to the rape of a woman (or man!), or the murder of a loved. If you feel they are one-in-the same, than you are part of the reason our world is nearing the end of its existance, not the other way around. And I will leave it with that final thought.
Ivory has been used for centuries as a sign of royalty, wealth, and in some cultures the material is considered more valuable than gold. So naturally people today desire have Ivory used for any white areas of their cue. Also, the material is gorgeous as are most of the exotic woods used in cue making.
Now, I will state that I am COMPLETELY against the illegal killing/poaching of these majestic creatures, however I AM AWARE that much of the ivory traded across the world today comes from stockpiles of ivory tusks that are found out in the field from elephants that died of natural causes or at the claws of some big cat. Do you think the people of African nations where elephants reside just leave the stuff laying on the ground or burn it? PLEAAAASE. There is a TON of pre-ban ivory still in existance that hasn't even come into the U.S. yet. So the rarity of this material is not so much as it seems. The ban of 1989 was put into place to monitor and help to control the populations at that time, but if you look at recent numbers of elephants, they are becoming more and more numerous as the years goes by. Actually, in some areas elephants are becoming too abundant and causing locals problems (similar to bears and deer here in the states!).
So...for those opposed to killing just for sport and for ivory, I commend you on keeping the topic alive, however I cannot support those who feel that death of an animal comes even close to comparing to the rape of a woman (or man!), or the murder of a loved. If you feel they are one-in-the same, than you are part of the reason our world is nearing the end of its existance, not the other way around. And I will leave it with that final thought.
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These "other problems" you are mentioning do not ride such a fine line as the line between legal and illegal ivory. Also, ivory is not instrumental in the construction of cues. Cues can be made just fine without the use of ivory. You wanting ivory in your cue and your willingness to "look away" from everything that is morally wrong involving this is asinine imo. I'll never see this logic as just, and lose virtually all respect for anyone who subscribes to this train of thought. If you love ivory cues so much that you don't care that you may be contributing to the death of a species, then we will never see eye to eye and I will most likely consider you to be classless, disrespectful of the planet you live on, and an all-around tool. Just my opinion.
Obviously I can't stop anyone from putting ivory in their cue. That's your decision to make. I'm just asking everyone to think about it. If you decide you still want that ivory, at least do everything in your power to assure that it is indeed "legal" ivory and was not poached. You should be able to do that at the very least. If you don't, I hope you can sleep with yourself at night. Me personally will never own a cue with ivory in it.
I thought that with my first line, that was implied.
Had you taken the time to comprehend what I had written, you may well have noticed that my position had changed on the use of preban ivory...not on the illegal poaching of elephants for the procurement of illegal ivory.
Seeing as my cue from Keith has ivory in it, and that I received it back in April, and that this had already been addressed over at Jimbo's at that time, one can only assume that your post was nothing more than a poor attempt to apparently discredit me. To what end, Eric? What in the world have I ever done to you? Honestly, do I follow your posts around, hoping and praying for a misstep? No...because quite frankly, I've got better things to do with my time...and I guess I'm just not mean-spirited.
In fact, if anyone had a bone to pick with me on the subject, it would have been JV, since he and I went back and forth on this issue some years ago. Perhaps he has a better understanding that people's opinions and perceptions can change...and I would be more than happy to enter into a discourse with him on that subject. With you, however, I will not.
Let's face it, it's been a very, very, very long time since anything you posted offered any real useful content...and I have chosen to not suffer keyboard commandos any longer.
Lisa
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seems like this is becoming more common.
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Ivory+sparks+arrests/3744517/story.html
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Ivory+sparks+arrests/3744517/story.html
Looking at this as the death of a single animal instead of stepping back and looking at the illegal ivory trade as a whole is naive.
Most people don't have a problem recognizing that it is wrong to purchase conflict diamonds. People are enslaved, murdered and abused in order to bring these diamonds to market.
Do you think that people that poach elephants for the ivory are just well meaning entrepeneurs? They aren't, they are ruthless murderers that would think nothing of killing the park ranger that caught them poaching. They have no problem bribing government officials to get thier products into market.
Ivory on Cue = blood diamond.
All that aside, how can you make the assertion that people who are advocates for anamals, the ecosystems they live in and the biodiversity which is the lifesupport of the planet are part of the reason the "world is nearing the end of it's existance"? It doesn't make any sense.
People who cling to any grey area in order to satisfy thier vanity rather than honor the spirit of a law designed to keep a species from extinction are more likely to be the cause of any such end of existance.
I will probably get back lash but it wouldnt be the first time lol, I spoke with Joe today and here is the real story. The state department raided him 3 years ago and found no illegal ivory ! The charge is stemming from the 2 cues he shipped to England and he didn't remember to get an export permit. All this is over a simple permit....really ! A simple misdemeanor charge, nothing more.
If he had the permit, there wouldn't be any reason for the State Department to get a wild hair in there arse and pull a raid !
And as far as ivory goes the park rangers in africa's several preserves, frequently cull the herds to keep over crowding and to keep the food sources from being depleted. There are tons literally of tusks that could be sold to help them keep poachers from illegally taking elephants, but that would be to easy of a fix now wouldn't it ?!?!? Truly.
If he had the permit, there wouldn't be any reason for the State Department to get a wild hair in there arse and pull a raid !
And as far as ivory goes the park rangers in africa's several preserves, frequently cull the herds to keep over crowding and to keep the food sources from being depleted. There are tons literally of tusks that could be sold to help them keep poachers from illegally taking elephants, but that would be to easy of a fix now wouldn't it ?!?!? Truly.
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Lisa, just saying that you were awful adamant, condescending and pious in your previous rantings on the use of ivory. If anything, I was just pointing out that it seems ridiculous how uninformed and clueless you were back then (by your own admission) BUT you still came down like an authority, with an unwavering opinion. You were pretty vocal. I guess a tiny bit of knowledge really is dangerous, in the wrong hands.
Since your opinion is that my posts offer no content, I suppose the same opinion can be said about your posts. I will say this, though, that I don't put myself on a higher pedestal just because I've been posting here longer than others. It's no reason to feel condescending.
*edit_ you have your facts wrong again. You and I nvr had this conversation, on jimbos or otherwise.
Eric >the worthless one
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Seriously?...Ask anyone who knows me...I am so the last person to put myself on a pedestal. Admittedly, my self-esteem is far too low for that...always has been. I am also more than willing to admit when I have made a mistake. When was the last time you openly admitted on a public forum that you made a mistake? We're human, we make mistakes...the older we get, the more we realize this. Am I opinionated...yep, then again, so are you....so are many people.
My point was, that in threads that I have started or participated in, that you have chosen to post to...typically it has been in response to something I have posted, and the comments have not been favorable. When was the last time you posted something positive in response to anything I have posted? Not in recent memory that I can recall.
If you are out to call BS on posts in general...then you are missing a lot...just curious as to why your focus is on me? I am not nearly that fascinating, honestly.
I apologize to the OP...this was certainly not meant to be a thread hijack...would appreciate if we could get back on topic.
Lisa
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supergreenman = drinkin' the biodiversity kool-aid
I have never seen a loin kill an elephant, but they must be one ferocious animal!
Wow..... That's all you got. I don't expect Mensa will be approving your membership application any time soon.
I will probably get back lash but it wouldnt be the first time lol, I spoke with Joe today and here is the real story. The state department raided him 3 years ago and found no illegal ivory ! The charge is stemming from the 2 cues he shipped to England and he didn't remember to get an export permit. All this is over a simple permit....really ! A simple misdemeanor charge, nothing more.
If he had the permit, there wouldn't be any reason for the State Department to get a wild hair in there arse and pull a raid !
And as far as ivory goes the park rangers in africa's several preserves, frequently cull the herds to keep over crowding and to keep the food sources from being depleted. There are tons literally of tusks that could be sold to help them keep poachers from illegally taking elephants, but that would be to easy of a fix now wouldn't it ?!?!? Truly.
What did he say about the Cubans. I'm more concerned with who's going to be puffing on those cigars now. Lucky bastard!
You bring me up a free cue and I'll get you a few boxes of Cuban cigars .... no problemo !
Dave <-- Mr. Generous :smile:
Many, many people are killed over the drug trade, perhaps supergreenman (assuming its a reference to pot) should reconsider his involvement with that illegal trade.
If you smelled what comes out of my loins(after beer and brats), you would know that an elephant has NO chance.
Eric >none
Thanks for an informative post, finally.I will probably get back lash but it wouldnt be the first time lol, I spoke with Joe today and here is the real story. The state department raided him 3 years ago and found no illegal ivory ! The charge is stemming from the 2 cues he shipped to England and he didn't remember to get an export permit. All this is over a simple permit....really ! A simple misdemeanor charge, nothing more.
If he had the permit, there wouldn't be any reason for the State Department to get a wild hair in there arse and pull a raid !
And as far as ivory goes the park rangers in africa's several preserves, frequently cull the herds to keep over crowding and to keep the food sources from being depleted. There are tons literally of tusks that could be sold to help them keep poachers from illegally taking elephants, but that would be to easy of a fix now wouldn't it ?!?!? Truly.
As to your last point, there have been two large shipments of post-ban ivory permitted by the CITES authorities, as I recall. In both cases all of the ivory went to Japan and China. I assume that the payment for the ivory was supposed to go for conservation as you suggest. I hope it did. The new ivory was said to have come from naturally dead elephants or seized poached animals. Here is a related article I found.
I can understand this...and it makes sense. Afterall, when you camp in one of our National Forests or Parks, you cannot cut down a tree for firewood, but you are certainly welcome to collect the deadfall.
Lisa
My user name has nothing to do with pot. You want the answer, go back to page 2 or 3.