My conclusions on Diamond Pro-Am vs. Brunswick Gold Crown V

[mdavis]

I spent months researching tables.

Thought I'd post this, just in case the information helps a prospective buyer.

I put a deposit on a NEW 9' 1-piece slate black Diamond Pro-Am with new rail angles in mid Sept, so you know what I went with..still haven't received the table though (as of Jan 16, 2011) - 4+ months since deposit.

The brief summary:


Diamond Pro-Am 1-piece slate
-- MAJOR ITEM: distribution and lead time...I've waited 4 months so far.
+ best built table on the planet....perhaps there is stuff in Europe?
+ with the rail angle change, perhaps it equals or bests the play of the Gold Crown V...because the Gold Crown V has so much variation in manufacturing.
+ single piece slate w/wedge is the best leveling system
+ slate under the rails is a great construction technique
+ best bumpers (artemis interconteninental K55 - which are actually billiard cushions, rather than the typical K66)
+ resale is great (among pool geeks)...aesthetics may hurt the table for home re-sale to non-expert players...where furniture quality tables are likely preferred
- looks terrible -- you pay a price for Dymondwood...the pocket corners..ugh..the black on the side...Oh well...I went with black because I think it hides the ugliness better than Rosewood ....you could move to a professional, which looks a tad better, but then you lose the best things about Diamond (Pro-Am Build, wedge, 1-piece slate, etc)...At that point, GC V starts to look much more interesting.
- black marks on balls -- can't believe they haven't fixed this yet on the Pro-Am? The impregnated dye leeches.
= 860HR on both
+ better warranty?
+ doesn't have the metal elevated pocket corners
very slight + cost (as a result of direct distribution)
* it is important to realize the cost is very close however, see below.
= ball spit out, or is it worse on Diamond?
+ thicker slate if comparing a 3-piece Diamond, equal slate thickness compared to 1-piece Diamond
+ 1" higher, at least a + for most
+ Dymondwood durability is outstanding...you can get durable or aesthetically pleasing, but NOT BOTH. Pick one.
- There are reports of some slipping/stuck balls on Diamond tables, which some have attributed to the leather marks on the balls (I will dismiss the static electricity explanation)

Brunswick Gold Crown V
++ can get one immediately, 2 weeks for new delivery/setup (dealer distribution)
++ looks great for a home table - much much better aesthetics than Diamond
= or + (arguably) best play prior to rail angle change and with little manufacturing variation...post-rail angle change -- Diamond gets a lot better...but Brunswick seems to have a lot of manufacturing variation in real life...I wonder what Diamond's variation specs are?
--- pocket variation of 1/8" seems to be common -- this is just ridiculous for a table of this caliber...I can't believe someone hasn't talked to them about this...this is just unacceptable...you have to get RKC to your house to fix the NEW table...
- pockets at 142 degrees and 143 degrees are also common vs. Diamond at 141.
= OK build...certainly a lot better than most Brunswick tables, but not as good as a Pro-Am
- 3-piece slate, not as good Slate?
- worse leveling system and not as easy to use
- will not age as well
- poor resale value
slight - price...
~10k base
- 2.5k discount (dealer discounts are common)
- 1.5k delivery fee you don't pay here, but you pay w/Diamond
---
about 6k (GC V) and that is pretty close to $4,900 (Pro-Am)

- metal elevated pocket corners could disturb your shot


And, if you are considering Diamond Professional Tables vs. Diamond Pro-Ams:

Diamond Pro
+ looks
- setup
- no ball return
+ no marks on balls with new nylon pockets
(opt) 1-piece slate
(opt) Dymondwood
= wedge leveling system
= rails, playability, slate size

Diamond Pro-Am
- looks
+ fast setup and easier to move (don't have the take the table apart)
+ resale value
+ ball return
- marks on balls
= wedge leveling system
= rails, playability, slate size

So, the question is whether the resale value, setup speed and more efficient movement, and ball return offset the annoying ball marks and looks....And this assumes the Pro is configured with a 1-piece slate and Dymondwood, removing both of those items.


Hope it helps -- I think most serious players are looking at these two tables.

 

[Cuebuddy]

I have never had a ball pop back up once it was in the pocket on my Diamond pro. I agree on the black marks although I fixed mine years ago:wink:. For the most part your analysis is good. The Diamonds sit up about one inch taller (at least they used to) and that is nice. The Dymondwood for the rails is the best deal going and is soooo nice. Slate is also thicker on the Diamonds= more solid feel.

 

[cheapcues.com]

Thanks for the info. The price differential being what it is I think it's a no brainer. By not selling through dealers Diamond has really been able to get aggressive on pricing, and what Brunswick is asking for their GC's is really quite silly, IMO. It's not a complicated table to make and should be $4K even with dealer markup. They'll figure it out about 15 years from now after they've been completely blown out of the water by Diamond, and it's too late. It will be right about the same time they realize that selling through Costco and Sears was a dumb move too.

But I digress. Enjoy your new table!

 

[BRKNRUN]

New to New or Diamnond vs GCV the Diamond is worth the wait.


However...what if you compared a new Diamond to a GCII that has been re-calibrated by Glen or a Glen certified mechanic?

IMO....It is a tie...

Or better yet....compare a new GCV to a re-cobralated GCII.....IMO...The GCII is a hands down winner.

 

[mdavis]

I have never had a ball pop back up once it was in the pocket on my Diamond pro. I agree on the black marks although I fixed mine years ago:wink:. For the most part your analysis is good. The Diamonds sit up about one inch taller (at least they used to) and that is nice. The Dymondwood for the rails is the best deal going and is soooo nice. Slate is also thicker on the Diamonds= more solid feel.

The thicker slate is a good one - is that the case on both 1-piece and 3-piece? I thought they were different -- can't remember the details.

I added 1" higher as well -- although, this may be personal preference, +1" is probably better for most.

Dymondwood is durable...but it doesn't look very good...

How did you fix the black marks on the balls?

--mark

 

[mdavis]

New to New or Diamnond vs GCV the Diamond is worth the wait.


However...what if you compared a new Diamond to a GCII that has been re-calibrated by Glen or a Glen certified mechanic?

IMO....It is a tie...

Or better yet....compare a new GCV to a re-cobralated GCII.....IMO...The GCII is a hands down winner.

Given the 1/8" variation of the pocket sizes, I think a re-calibration is required...either way...I thought...among the GCs...the V was pretty well made, perhaps just inferior in some aspects to the III? I suspect Glen would have a lot to say about the variants.

 

[mdavis]

Thanks for the info. The price differential being what it is I think it's a no brainer. By not selling through dealers Diamond has really been able to get aggressive on pricing, and what Brunswick is asking for their GC's is really quite silly, IMO. It's not a complicated table to make and should be $4K even with dealer markup. They'll figure it out about 15 years from now after they've been completely blown out of the water by Diamond, and it's too late. It will be right about the same time they realize that selling through Costco and Sears was a dumb move too.

The downfall of not selling through dealers is distribution...and WAITS. (ahh)...and delivery and installation...and the potential...as a lowly consumer to get de-prioritized for most important jobs/installs/deliveries/etc.

Yeah, I'd expect to get 20-30% off at the minimum on a new Brunswick.

Agree re: costco and sears. Not good for the brand either...

Enjoy your new table!

Whenever it arrives...Could be 2012

 

[mdavis]

Diamond 1-piece slate is 1" thick, while the 3-piece is a little shy of 1 3/16 (30mm) thick. (info from a post by RKC, of course)

I assume the Gold Crown is 1" thick? So it's equal to the 1-piece Diamond and less than the 3-piece Diamond.

-mark

 

[Cuebuddy]

The thicker slate is a good one - is that the case on both 1-piece and 3-piece? I thought they were different -- can't remember the details.

I added 1" higher as well -- although, this may be personal preference, +1" is probably better for most.

Dymondwood is durable...but it doesn't look very good...

How did you fix the black marks on the balls?

--mark

I like the look of the grain on the Dymondwood and durable is a understatement more like bullet proof.

Mark I was able to take a cloth and denatured alcohol and rubbed the top inside of the pocket. Basically I removed the dye that is on the leather. because of the way the pockets are shaped on the top you can not tell unless you put your face on the table and look with a flashlight.
Another advantage is you can customize your table to an extent with Diamond..... this is mine.

 

[mdavis]

I like the look of the grain on the Dymondwood and durable is a understatement more like bullet proof.

Mark I was able to take a cloth and denatured alcohol and rubbed the top inside of the pocket. Basically I removed the dye that is on the leather. because of the way the pockets are shaped on the top you can not tell unless you put your face on the table and look with a flashlight.
Another advantage is you can customize your table to an extent with Diamond..... this is mine.

Ah, the old alcohol trick...OK...makes sense...I just wish they used a different material (Nylon?) or better die or protectant or something so we don't have to deal with this problem...among problems...this seems like an easy one to fix...

Nice room and table! I recently read a thread showing pages and pages of rooms...I wonder if we need another one of those? I could show a picture of the room I prepared, but it is sadly without a table...while I wait for Diamond...

I'm just not crazy about those lines on the corners or even the grain...or the black on the sides of the table...now that cocobolo Professional table that was posted a few weeks ago looked OK...the wood on the Paragon looks nice too (stained Maple), but those legs are terrible!! I think Diamond has some work to do on aesthetics.

...and while Dymondwood appears to be amazingly durable, it can't be bent around the corners, which seems to be the root cause of at least some of the aesthetic issues...at least for my taste?

 

[ITguy]

Mark
The table is worth the wait. I too was on the fence between the "Blue" Diamond Pro AM and the GC V. Went with the Pro AM due to Glens assurance it would play great with minimal adjusting to a GC (New England is Brunswick country). He was correct on all counts and the table plays fantastic, in my humble opinion.

Jim

 

[mdavis]

Mark
The table is worth the wait. I too was on the fence between the "Blue" Diamond Pro AM and the GC V. Went with the Pro AM due to Glens assurance it would play great with minimal adjusting to a GC (New England is Brunswick country). He was correct on all counts and the table plays fantastic, in my humble opinion.

Jim

Thanks Jim..

Apparently, Portland is also Brunswick Country. No 9' Pro-Ams in town (that I know of). A Brunswick dealer just 2 miles from my house , etc...The players hall is all Gold Crown here.

Glen is the best and in high demand...

I don't think I've ever waited 3.5 months for anything - I've ordered cars that got here from the UK...faster than this Add the 9-12 months I waited for the "blue" version and wow...

Glad to hear you are enjoying the table and felt that you made the right decision. The thing sure is ugly though, right?

-mark

 

[mrinsatiable]

Diamonds are definitely the way to go. I saw one on craigslist a while back for as low as $2,500. Which i thought was a deal of the century. Too bad it was sold. I find the black dye coming off the pockets is a small issue compared to playing with a gold crown. Diamond Pro Am's are the best playing table to date. Once they fix the short banking angles it'll be perfect.

Congrats on your table and Good luck.

 

[mdavis]

Diamonds are definitely the way to go. I saw one on craigslist a while back for as low as $2,500. Which i thought was a deal of the century. Too bad it was sold. I find the black dye coming off the pockets is a small issue compared to playing with a gold crown. Diamond Pro Am's are the best playing table to date. Once they fix the short banking angles it'll be perfect.

Congrats on your table and Good luck.

They FIXED the rail angle and banking, done deal! I waited almost a year for that...All the tables in the US 9-ball Open had the fixes...yes, this is a BIG deal...and I wouldn't buy a table pre-fix.

The new tables have a blue 'Diamond' logo...You might see reference to the "blue" Diamond on these forums. The previous design had "red" Diamond logos. Also, I think the rails are marked with a -1 if they are cut with the new machines..

-mark

 

[jalapus logan]

The thicker slate is a good one - is that the case on both 1-piece and 3-piece? I thought they were different -- can't remember the details.

I added 1" higher as well -- although, this may be personal preference, +1" is probably better for most.

Dymondwood is durable...but it doesn't look very good...

How did you fix the black marks on the balls?

--mark

To each their own. I love the way my Dymondwood looks and get many compliments on it. I do think that if you are going to spend this much money on a new table, it really should be the one you want. If it is the Diamond, then it would be worth the wait, at least to me.

 

[jalapus logan]

I like the look of the grain on the Dymondwood and durable is a understatement more like bullet proof.

Mark I was able to take a cloth and denatured alcohol and rubbed the top inside of the pocket. Basically I removed the dye that is on the leather. because of the way the pockets are shaped on the top you can not tell unless you put your face on the table and look with a flashlight.
Another advantage is you can customize your table to an extent with Diamond..... this is mine.

Now that is a great looking table, IMO! I love the black skirts, provides great contrast with the rails.

 

[Donny Wessels]

Diamond 1-piece slate is 1" thick, while the 3-piece is a little shy of 1 3/16 (30mm) thick. (info from a post by RKC, of course)

I assume the Gold Crown is 1" thick? So it's equal to the 1-piece Diamond and less than the 3-piece Diamond.

-mark

Mark,

You can get the Diamond Professional in a 1-pc slate with the leveling system, it just doesn't come assembled. The assembly would need to be done at your location. You still have the problem of transporting the 1-pc slate, which Diamond doesn't feel comfortable shipping, it needs to be handled by a Diamond Mechanic. Depending on what part of the country your in,that will affect how long you will have to wait.

If you ordered the Diamond Professional with a 3-pc slate it can be shipped. Also the Diamond Professional with the 3-pc slate comes with the leveling system that is very similiar to the 1-pc.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Hoping someone can save me the search and read. What is the diamond new rail system and what was wrong with the old?

 

[Cuebuddy]

Now that is a great looking table, IMO! I love the black skirts, provides great contrast with the rails.

Thanks:grin-square: The contrast is one of the big reasons I went with this combo. Diamond also used black rail diamonds in the Dymondwood rails(lota jewels in that sentence).
The other reason I liked the black is the way it looks at night with only the table light on.

 

[realkingcobra]

Hoping someone can save me the search and read. What is the diamond new rail system and what was wrong with the old?

The new Diamond rail system is just an adjustment to the thickness of the sub-rails and a better alignment of the cushion to the nose height in relationship as to how the cushions react when the balls come into contact with the cushions. I call it calibrated...because what we've done is research how the balls react off the cushions by changing the sub-rail thickness instead of the nose height....which is the same 1 29/64"ths on the new rails vs the older designed rails....so, that hasn't changed any. There was nothing "wrong" with the Diamond tables before this change...they were just different than say Brunswick GC's that everyone was so use to playing on. This change in the Diamond rails...is the same exact change I make to the Brunswick GC rails I rebuild and calibrate every time I work on Brunswick tables as well.

Once I'm done working on a Brunswick GC...it don't play like it did from the factory either....which makes everyone that owns one of the tables I've worked on....realize that even Brunswick's can be made to play better....even brand new GC5's....once the rails have been calibrated to play at their best with whatever cushions are being used at the time...meaning different cushions....require a different sub-rail calibration to play at their best

Glen