I definitely agree with Mr. Wilson! All of you naysayers have jumped in for months with nothing but negativity. If you don't feel that there is any possibility of these systems working or of them being only "voodoo" or of having only subconscious adjustments stay away and let people who feel that they are open minded have their discussions. If the intellectual content is not too your liking don't participate. Start your own thread or your own web site. Don't pontificate as it is tiresome having discussions hijacked and turned into insulting flame wars. We already know what your group thinks. Thank you for your opinions now go away and leave us to our discussions and experimentation.
Aiming Voodoo Video
- Thread starter JB Cases
- Start date
I used Ron's system today and made the first 6 shots in a row. Missed on the 7th shot but still found the system interesting. If it hadn't have been for Andrew's video, I probably would not have tried it out. I can see how some people find this system useful and promising.
Today, I went to another pool room for a tournament and probably played the worst 9 ball of my life, all the while using CTE/Pro One. Other players complained about the thick carpet like cloth and the Connely tables but everyone played on them. I just played worst than most.
Thinking that I need to play on different equipment more often, cut back on my playing time, and/or quit using CTE/Pro One. I guess I am just burned out on pool, kind of the way I feel about the forum. At least it looks like Mr. Wilson has finally laid the law down and there will be some peace on the forum.
In fact, I'm impressed that the people who are enjoying learning about and using these different aiming systems will finally be left alone. That's a step in the right direction, imo.
No, he demonstrates that the pivoting is all in his back hand, thats not the pivot point...the pivot point is where the person holding the stick with his/hers bridge hand, the distance from the tip end to the point when the shaft meets the players hand...thats the pivot point.
I can see where people get confused by the vid. I was discussing the vid last night (UK time) and the vid is great info and I got what Cleary was saying, but for someone who wants to learn it, it could be ironed out a little better IMO
I can see where people get confused by the vid. I was discussing the vid last night (UK time) and the vid is great info and I got what Cleary was saying, but for someone who wants to learn it, it could be ironed out a little better IMO
I used Ron's system today and made the first 6 shots in a row. Missed on the 7th shot but still found the system interesting. If it hadn't have been for Andrew's video, I probably would not have tried it out. I can see how some people find this system useful and promising.
Today, I went to another pool room for a tournament and probably played the worst 9 ball of my life, all the while using CTE/Pro One. Other players complained about the thick carpet like cloth and the Connely tables but everyone played on them. I just played worst than most.
Thinking that I need to play on different equipment more often, cut back on my playing time, and/or quit using CTE/Pro One. I guess I am just burned out on pool, kind of the way I feel about the forum
Happens to us all Joey
Some more than others (like myself, I struggle with consistency!). This post also proves that CTE isnt a miracle cure! I would stop using it Joey, especially if you have been practicing it a heck of a lot. Just a bad day at the office pal 
Again it's a matter of interpretation. See the bolded and underlined part.
"Today, I still find the best method of
teaching a new student is the tried and
true "ball behind the ball" or "ghost ball"
theory. Several pros agree. Others have
completely different theories. In research-
ing this article, I went home and tried
what many of the players said they used. I
also tried what I've told you I used. I was
surprised to discover I don't use it as
much as I thought I did, and happy to
know that in most cases, instinct had
taken over creative visualization. But for
most of us, creative visualization is not
only fun, but necessary. No matter what
your skill level, it's also nice to have some-
thing to fall back on — a comfort zone if
you're just not seeing the shots that day"
------------------------------------------------
Tommy Kennedy, winner of the 1992
U.S. Open 9-Ball Championships and cur-
rently ranked #17, has another variation.
"I look at the object ball straight ahead,
and then look little by little to the right or
left of the ball. I keep going until I see the
spot where it's going to hit the bigger part
of the pocket."
---------------------------------------------------------
Offering a more detailed explanation is
new P&B Mag instructional guru Ray
Martin, a BCA Hall of Fame player with
three world titles to his credit. According
to Ray, "I use parts of the cue ball. In
other words, if you were to have a
straight-in shot, you're aiming with the
middle of the cue ball to the middle of the
object ball. Now let's say the object ball
stays in the same place and you move the
cue ball six inches to the left. Now you're
aiming with only a part of the cue ball. If
you've got a real thin cut, now you're aim-
ing with the edge of the cue ball. I'm not
going to stress 1/2 ball, 1/4 ball here,
because that's way too broad — the differ-
ence could be two degrees or a sixteenth of
an inch! The important thing to remember
is the spot on the object ball never
changes. It is a constant."
--------------------------------------------------------
The PBT's #7 ranked Reed Pierce says,
"I take the cue stick and try to line it up in
line. I just pick the spot in the center of
the object ball, and aim towards that.
Even if you need to cut a ball real thin,
you just still need a square hit, so you aim
for the contact point with your cue."
----------------------------------------------------------
Fellow WPBA pro Mary Guarino
offers a new slant. "I aim with the shaft of
my cue stick. If you're hitting a straight-in
shot, obviously, your cue is in the center. I
imagine the cue ball is in quarters. In example for 15 degree cuts, you split the quarter. For a thirty degree cut I split the
edge with my shaft and 45 degree cuts I
use the edges of my shaft."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Moving backwards from the object ball
and cue ball, we have our group of players
that aim with the cue stick itself, but with
a great deal of diversity in their methods.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Final Secret
There you have it, the secrets of aiming
from dozens of the top players who do it
best. But then again, is the secret really
out? #2 ranked C.J. Wiley offers that you
must aim before you get down on the ball
by lining up correctly, of course, but adds
that as far as his aiming method itself,
"There are certain things you don't tell.
Last time I wrote anything about aiming,
somebody copied it and started selling it."
----------------------------------------------------------------
The whole point of this in my opinion is that there is not any one way to aim that everyone uses. And it gives you the clear statement that many "aiming systems" have been around forever.
Now, we have a great opportunity to really test out many of these systems and figure out if they work, why they work and how they work. At no other time in history have we as citizens of the world been able to take any subject and tackle it at the same time by people all over the world. You could be a leader in that effort or you can be a hindrance.
If you and others want to continually ridicule people who do want to do that then it creates hostility and hinders the process.
The goal of anyone who spends time developing an aiming system and someone who learns them is to play better pool. It really kills me that people get really mean with each other over this when we all have the same goal.
Just imagine for a moment if you could have the time back that you have spent arguing and ridiculing and instead of spending it doing that you could learn the systems inside and out and then put your resources to bear figuring them out. You could probably end up with another hour of video on the subject and shed a lot of clarity on it from the scientific side by example. For me I feel that I could have spent the time learning to teach them rather than just being a cheerleader for them.
Just my opinion of course.
stick with it...it takes about 3 months for it all to become natural.i had many doubts and to revert back to gb aiming.I used Ron's system today and made the first 6 shots in a row. Missed on the 7th shot but still found the system interesting. If it hadn't have been for Andrew's video, I probably would not have tried it out. I can see how some people find this system useful and promising.
Today, I went to another pool room for a tournament and probably played the worst 9 ball of my life, all the while using CTE/Pro One. Other players complained about the thick carpet like cloth and the Connely tables but everyone played on them. I just played worst than most.
Thinking that I need to play on different equipment more often, cut back on my playing time, and/or quit using CTE/Pro One. I guess I am just burned out on pool, kind of the way I feel about the forum. At least it looks like Mr. Wilson has finally laid the law down and there will be some peace on the forum.
In fact, I'm impressed that the people who are enjoying learning about and using these different aiming systems will finally be left alone. That's a step in the right direction, imo.
now i do it naturally and it feels right.
sometimes you have to drop your level to come back at a higher level.
Good point, about giving it time. I just recently went and saw Stan for a day, specifically for PRO One.
It's hard sometimes in Pro One to determine which pivot it is, right or left. I can tell most of the time, but when you do the wrong one, you miss. When you do the correct one, it splits the pocket. I will say, it's getting easier to see which one is needed. I'm in the Pro One learning curve right now. I found that if I'm not sure, I can do basic CTE, either shoot from there or get back up because then I know which pivot it is.
Then I can do Pro One if I want to. I also can use Ron's way, as I went to see Ron for a few days back in May. I'm waiting for Stan's video for a review item. I'm glad I'm on the pre paid list as I think that once it get's out, people will find out how good it is and gobble it up. It would be excellent if Ron could put one out. He's a wealth of knowledge.
I just don't get in enough practice to get real good at them.
It's hard sometimes in Pro One to determine which pivot it is, right or left. I can tell most of the time, but when you do the wrong one, you miss. When you do the correct one, it splits the pocket. I will say, it's getting easier to see which one is needed. I'm in the Pro One learning curve right now. I found that if I'm not sure, I can do basic CTE, either shoot from there or get back up because then I know which pivot it is.
Then I can do Pro One if I want to. I also can use Ron's way, as I went to see Ron for a few days back in May. I'm waiting for Stan's video for a review item. I'm glad I'm on the pre paid list as I think that once it get's out, people will find out how good it is and gobble it up. It would be excellent if Ron could put one out. He's a wealth of knowledge.
I just don't get in enough practice to get real good at them.
I just went to Dr Dave's video that JB posted the link for. I'm glad I did as, as I've been having a problem with scratching also. That's some good info. I saw that someone else thought it might be because of CTE and then made some adjustments. What adjustment did you make ? As more info can only help.
Another of Dr. Dave's video's on the BHE, once you determine your pivot point, are you marking your shaft somehow to know your always at the right spot ?
Because I use BHE with CTE and it would be nice to always be in the right spot. I thought putting a dot with a marker but maybe somebody would have a better idea.
Another of Dr. Dave's video's on the BHE, once you determine your pivot point, are you marking your shaft somehow to know your always at the right spot ?
Because I use BHE with CTE and it would be nice to always be in the right spot. I thought putting a dot with a marker but maybe somebody would have a better idea.
I used Ron's system today and made the first 6 shots in a row. Missed on the 7th shot but still found the system interesting. If it hadn't have been for Andrew's video, I probably would not have tried it out. I can see how some people find this system useful and promising.
Today, I went to another pool room for a tournament and probably played the worst 9 ball of my life, all the while using CTE/Pro One. Other players complained about the thick carpet like cloth and the Connely tables but everyone played on them. I just played worst than most.
Thinking that I need to play on different equipment more often, cut back on my playing time, and/or quit using CTE/Pro One. I guess I am just burned out on pool, kind of the way I feel about the forum. At least it looks like Mr. Wilson has finally laid the law down and there will be some peace on the forum.
In fact, I'm impressed that the people who are enjoying learning about and using these different aiming systems will finally be left alone. That's a step in the right direction, imo.
I usually avoid 'aiming threads'.(and religion and politics)
However,your post makes me want to speak up,'cause none of us wants
you leaving this forum or the game.
I feel all these systems should be tried in practice....but shouldn't be
taken into action.
In action you should just fight with every thing you got...otherwise
you'll be like the guy who got his black belt and loses his first street
fight to a guy who just wants to survive.
Play to win..if it doesn't work out,go back to the practice table.
On thick cloth,a half-ball cut doesn't go where it will on a fast cloth.
You have to cope with the reality of every set of conditions.
In an imperfect world 'Greek ideals' are only 'rules of thumb'
Exactly how does Dave's post ridicule anybody, John? Your (and Joey's) constant oversensitivity, false accusations and use of "us vs. them" inflammatory rhetoric have done more to instigate arguments and perpetuate hostility in these aiming threads than any of the people you try to paint as the "enemies" of aiming systems.
Why don't the moderators see this? Go ahead and ban me for posting in this thread. But finally ask yourselves honestly who the real troublemakers are here. Honest differences of opinion don't create discord; demonizing any post or poster that doesn't sing the praises of aiming systems does. And the worst thing that can happen is for this prejudice to be encouraged and institutionalized by forum moderators.
pj
chgo
Don't give up on us Patrick.Many of us value your keen insight.
But some subjects can be more trouble than they are worth.
Have a friend who majored in psychology.He became the best
backgammon player in my area.
..playing chouette one day he pointed out what he thought was
the best move..his team over-ruled him.
..he grinned at me and said "Perhaps I should have majored in debating"
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Pivot point is about 25 inches and has very little to do with your bridge.
I think the mods also see you throwing out phrases like......"singing with the CTE choir". Constantly trying to provoke an argument with insults isn't sparking a debate. It's just boils down to people throwing insults back and forth. They see both sides of it Pat. You should go back and read your posts. You don't add much value or insight. Just POKE POKE POKE until you get a reaction.
You were even asked to stay out of this thread by Wilson. You can't follow simple instruction. John has a right to his opinion and I'm sure dr_dave will respond to Johns post with 50,000 links to his webpage. They don't need your constant needling.
YOU ARE A TROUBLE MAKER PJ !!!!!!!
Joey, Im glad you gave it a try.
I went with a friend to a tournament yesterday. We joked a little about aiming voodoo, he uses the ghostball. When we met each other in the bracket, the first few racks he would say "come on aiming voodoo" or whatever when I missed a shot. Then I caught a gear and started coming with some great shots and running out. The match was close, 5-5 when I cut this shot in and scratched.
I came with some great shots, but this was the turning point in the set, he ended up winning the next game and that was the set.
After the tournament, he was more of a believer. He saw what this system has done for my game in a short time and knows its only a matter of time til my game goes even further.
I'm just glad you gave it a try Joey, and Im glad I gave it a try.
I thought that the process was...Identify Center to Edge....Then place the bridge hand along a line that the center to edge identified and then once the bridge hand is placed it does not move....you then pivot to center from that identified line.
If I pivot about the bridge it would be a pivot point of about 4 - 12" inches depending on the shooter....and how near the CB they place thier bridge hand.
The OP....Cleary's video shows him using a pivot point of about 57".......he allows his bridge hand to slide as he makes his pivot....All of the other video or examples I have seen seem to be in the 8-12" range...(I would assume the air pivot would be about the same)
You are saying that the correct pivot point is 25"....That is almost the joint of the cue.....Does that mean that the bridge hand needs to slide over when performing the pivot???
I sure can't keep it where I placed it if I am using a 25" pivot point.
Like ryno said, i was focused on the system and not cb. I also noticed once i was locked in after the pivot i would shoot every shot pretty much with the same speed (too hard). Cte helped me become more aware of cb speed,tangit lines and i leaned to use englsh and still make the shot.
I agree ..........................
So you are saying that Ron's aiming system pivot point is the rear hand, correct? This would mean that for the most part you would have to move your bridge hand minutely, correct even if it only meant "leaning" your bridge hand?//
BTW, thanks for the attaboy, relax post.
Not necessarily. The pivot point is the point on the stick that does not move when the cue is pivoted.
Examples:
-- For back-hand english (with any aiming method), the tip initially points at cue-ball center, then the back hand moves left or right and the cue pivots around the bridge to place the cue tip right or left of cue-ball center. The pivot point is the bridge.
-- For front-hand english, the tip initially points at cue-ball center, then the front hand moves left or right and the cue pivots around the rear hand to place the cue tip left or right of cue-ball center. The pivot point is the rear hand.
-- For mechanical, on the table, CTE aiming, Dave Segal has shown us that he deforms the bridge hand slightly when the cue is pivoted to create an effective pivot point that is well behind the bridge hand. I believe Dave has said that he senses the pivot point as approximately at the stick's joint.
-- For Cleary's version of Ron's 90/90 aiming, Cleary is saying and demonstrating a pivot point that is at his back hand. That is, he keeps the back hand in place and pivots the rest of the cue left or right to bring the cue tip to cue-ball center by moving the bridge hand.
-- For front-hand english, the tip initially points at cue-ball center, then the front hand moves left or right and the cue pivots around the rear hand to place the cue tip left or right of cue-ball center. The pivot point is the rear hand.
-- For mechanical, on the table, CTE aiming, Dave Segal has shown us that he deforms the bridge hand slightly when the cue is pivoted to create an effective pivot point that is well behind the bridge hand. I believe Dave has said that he senses the pivot point as approximately at the stick's joint.
-- For Cleary's version of Ron's 90/90 aiming, Cleary is saying and demonstrating a pivot point that is at his back hand. That is, he keeps the back hand in place and pivots the rest of the cue left or right to bring the cue tip to cue-ball center by moving the bridge hand.
You see Patrick, you don't even realize that this post does exactly what you accuse John and I of doing.
Also, it isn't your lack of praising any aiming system that creates animosity. It is your manner in which you respond to anything that you don't agree with. You respond in a derogatory manner on a regular basis and your snooty one line responses aggravate most of the population. You apparently just don't see that and I can't help you with that, I'm afraid.
If you stuck to disagreeing without the snide remarks I think you would get a pass on most of what you say but you insist on communicating in a mean-spirited manner.
Here you are in this thread suggesting that John and I are the trouble makers. WTH?
My "constant over-sensitivity" as you like to call it is caused by people like you who can't miss out on an opportunity to stick a needle in a poster because they don't agree with your perspectives. I just get tired of hearing and seeing the same old mean-spirited jabs by you and others.
In recent days I have attempted to not light a fire under those whom I have disagreements with and have any posted some light-hearted "humor" as Lou likes to call it in threads that are off-limits to aiming system enthusiasts.
The truth is that I don't care how you aim or shoot UNLESS it is going to help me aim or shoot better. If you say the sky is brown, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you but you and a bunch of the others can't stand it when other people have perspectives that don't follow your bible.
I've always said that you are a valuable contributor to this forum, much to the chagrin of a lot of posters who don't think that your valuable contributions outweigh the insolent and arrogant remarks that you are so want to use on a regular basis.
I personally don't want to see you banned from this forum. What you've said in the post that I quoted is not a very good reason for banning but it certainly is worth reading again and maybe you can consider the other person's point of view and see how it is an attack on the very people you seem to have such a problem with about the same thing you accuse them of.[
B]
Pointing fingers isn't going to resolve the problems of this forum.
Some tolerance can help but it's going to require a bona fide effort from everyone to be more respectful of others to return some tranquility to the forum.