USPPA Reno players, did they get paid?

spktur said:
Why would anyone want to work with/for him anyway? If he doesn't pay off at events like this he can't be trusted to pay off on payday and i don't work for free. As far as him holding more events, it won't be at a casino unless he gets this settled and makes things right. Those people keep an eye on things and don't want to have anything to do with a crooked or questionable promoter.
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If he can stiff a large group of people and actually have people defend him, then he is talented. It would be worth the money to see him to do it to larger groups for even more money. I think in the underworld they are called feeders, and they bring people for some head honcho to feed off of. Being a feeder means you won't take the big fall but your cut won't be as big.

Some people just want to make the fast cash.

No one cares what people do in life as much as how much money they can spend for a business or organization or charity.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum
In regards to the entry fee some people borrow money from "undocumented" sources. Such creditors can be extremely intrusive in one's affairs especially if there is a publicly made money collection.

I am not saying Tony was involved with "undocumented creditors" I am just saying if there were undocumented creditors playing a role, they wouldn't wait to collect once they see money moving. justnum

Suppose a person, maybe Tony, had a habit and to finance that habit he borrowed money. The only chance the person would have to pay back the money is if the person somehow generated cash quickly like a pool tournament.

Sometimes the people that operate businesses have lives outside of the business. Sometimes its gambling, hookers, drugs, cars, or watches, in almost all cases someone overspends and finds themselves in debt to someone. Then they raid their business budgets or in a "hypothetical case" the prize and entry fee money of a pool tournament.

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Justnum - in several threads - has made some pretty wild (and undocumented) suppositions or accusations. I don't think he has any real experience in running pool tournaments. I remember in the US Open 9-Ball thread he was making statements about bleachers should only cost $500 or some such nonsense.

I appreciate what I feel are his attempts to help - but inflammatory language just heats up the issue. It is also very distracting.

His latest language is sugesting Tony has a 'loan shark' as a backer. I don't believe that for a minute and think that type of language hurts the industry even more.

Please lets try to keep this thread on topic! It is about payment to tournament players. And that is all!

Mark Griffin
 
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Reno & USPPA (non) payouts

One month has passed and it seems the payouts have not taken place. Tony has been in the industry for 40 years or so. I feel (as ohters have stated) a public explanation should have been given from the start. And even more so since a month has passed.

Many have mentioned - what happened to the $100 entry fee paid by 99 players. Good question.

Here is my take (on what could have happened):

When Tony was involved in the events at the Reno Sands there were no attrition clause in the promoter's contract. What that means is that the Sands did not have a minimum number of rooms that had to be 'sold' to the pool players. The Sands agreement was a sweetheart of a deal. Yet they still managed to have the venue lose thousands until they got tired of it and pulled the plug. Remember his 'definition of added money' and his previous press releases that the 'player can stay anywhere'?

The hotels do pool tournaments to fill hotel rooms. The Sands was very lenient in this policy and Tony bragged how 'players can stay anywhere'. I don't know of many events that require players to stay on sight. But I think it should be in the player's best interest to support the venue. If the venue looses money, the event will not happen again.

I am betting that all this added money that Tony talked about was based on a certain occupancy in the Peppermill. Because of low turnout (and other possible factors) - my guess is that he did not meet his requirement and had to make up the difference. Now his money from the hotel has disappeared. (This is why all the mumbo-jumbo about added money is just about half nonsense).

When you sign a contract that has attrition clauses, you can pay a heavy penalty - from not getting your full amount of rebate to having to write a check for the full amount of the numbr of rooms under the guaranteed amount. This can be many thousnads of dollars.

As I said before, this business is not for the faint of heart - or the short bankroll.

All of this is just my guess - but it might be a reasonable situation. No 'loan sharks' or anything else. Just a lower number of people staying at the host venue than predicted. But - remember that Tony is a 'certified hotel planner' and should not get himself into this trap, so maybe this is not what happened.

All I know is this is not right or fair to the pool industry and shame on anyone that supports (or excuses) this type of behavior.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
 
Mark Griffin said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum
In regards to the entry fee some people borrow money from "undocumented" sources. Such creditors can be extremely intrusive in one's affairs especially if there is a publicly made money collection.

I am not saying Tony was involved with "undocumented creditors" I am just saying if there were undocumented creditors playing a role, they wouldn't wait to collect once they see money moving. justnum

Suppose a person, maybe Tony, had a habit and to finance that habit he borrowed money. The only chance the person would have to pay back the money is if the person somehow generated cash quickly like a pool tournament.

Sometimes the people that operate businesses have lives outside of the business. Sometimes its gambling, hookers, drugs, cars, or watches, in almost all cases someone overspends and finds themselves in debt to someone. Then they raid their business budgets or in a "hypothetical case" the prize and entry fee money of a pool tournament.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justnum - in several threads - has made some pretty wild (and undocumented) suppositions or accusations. I don't think he has any real experience in running pool tournaments. I remember in the US Open 9-Ball thread he was making statements about bleachers should only cost $500 or some such nonsense.

I appreciate what I feel are his attempts to help - but inflammatory language just heats up the issue. It is also very distracting.

His latest language is sugesting Tony has a 'loan shark' as a backer. I don't believe that for a minute and think that type of language hurts the industry even more.

Please lets try to keep this thread on topic! It is about payment to tournament players. And that is all!

Mark Griffin
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I am interested in seeing the players get paid. Have they considered formally requesting directly from the Reno promoter an explanation or payment?

(I was not trying to be funny the "theories" I share are from news articles or press releases about New Yorkers and behavior that gets them convicted. It was not me making up stories. It was me applying existing stories to other schemes.)
 
Mark Griffin said:
One month has passed and it seems the payouts have not taken place. Tony has been in the industry for 40 years or so. I feel (as ohters have stated) a public explanation should have been given from the start. And even more so since a month has passed.

Many have mentioned - what happened to the $100 entry fee paid by 99 players. Good question.

Here is my take (on what could have happened):

When Tony was involved in the events at the Reno Sands there were no attrition clause in the promoter's contract. What that means is that the Sands did not have a minimum number of rooms that had to be 'sold' to the pool players. The Sands agreement was a sweetheart of a deal. Yet they still managed to have the venue lose thousands until they got tired of it and pulled the plug. Remember his 'definition of added money' and his previous press releases that the 'player can stay anywhere'?

The hotels do pool tournaments to fill hotel rooms. The Sands was very lenient in this policy and Tony bragged how 'players can stay anywhere'. I don't know of many events that require players to stay on sight. But I think it should be in the player's best interest to support the venue. If the venue looses money, the event will not happen again.

I am betting that all this added money that Tony talked about was based on a certain occupancy in the Peppermill. Because of low turnout (and other possible factors) - my guess is that he did not meet his requirement and had to make up the difference. Now his money from the hotel has disappeared. (This is why all the mumbo-jumbo about added money is just about half nonsense).

When you sign a contract that has attrition clauses, you can pay a heavy penalty - from not getting your full amount of rebate to having to write a check for the full amount of the numbr of rooms under the guaranteed amount. This can be many thousnads of dollars.

As I said before, this business is not for the faint of heart - or the short bankroll.

All of this is just my guess - but it might be a reasonable situation. No 'loan sharks' or anything else. Just a lower number of people staying at the host venue than predicted. But - remember that Tony is a 'certified hotel planner' and should not get himself into this trap, so maybe this is not what happened.

All I know is this is not right or fair to the pool industry and shame on anyone that supports (or excuses) this type of behavior.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
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Mark,
Thanks for your enlightening comments which point out some of the risks involved with promoting larger events. It seems one would need team building skill sets in order to successfully do larger events where certain tasks could be assigned to certain individuals. The idea of one person doing it all would invite problems.

Do you feel that this has hurt the possibility of having future tournaments in Reno? Is there still any hope for handicap tournaments in Reno?
Bob
 
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levartze said:
kybill9 said:
I would much rather play pool, have fun and let someone else handle all the planning and promoting of pool tournaments. The only reason why I started doing tournaments was because I missed what we once had going in Reno and I didn't see anything else on the horizon. There was just this big void. Al (lulu) felt the same way and offered to help; and, things just sort of fell in place. In just a year, nearly 500 other pool players also agree; many of these players are brand new to 9ball, some left years ago frustrated and now see new possibilities and are excited.

I welcome, with open arms, the opportunity to help anyone credible, responsible and able to listen as well as talk about possibilities of having handicapped and Open Reno/Las Vegas tournaments, like before...
The players in this region deserve a nice bigger tournament where they can experience the camaraderie of friends getting together year after year and having fun.
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You, sir, are a tribute to what's right with the pool world. Stepping up to promote and run tournaments for the sake of having the camadreship of pool playing and welcoming new players. I hope they appreciate you up in your neck of the wood. :thumbup:
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The USPPA Reno prize money and the player relationship is no longer a tournament. After the event is over and prize payment was not made. The relationship between the USPPA and the players became a money recovery effort. Or a failure to uphold one's portion of the bargain occurred and now an effort is being made to accomplish the full transaction between USPPA prize money and players.

I don't know what specifics the tournament directors/promoters have in their dealings, or if there are any. But in typical business dealings there is a written agreement that contains specifics about dates for payment, penalties for failure to pay on time and how payments are to be made.

This tournament operation seems to be all verbal agreements based on ads in a magazine or a website. Regardless of what a promoter/director may have going on with a hotel that is separate from their interactions with the player prize fund.

The players seem to have the most risk because they put up the money and have no guarantees, no written agreements, they have nothing substantial for a claim if a tournament does not playout or if a tournament does not payout. It is tantamount to saying players signed up for a three day billiard camp and no rewards were going to be given out.

If you know the phone reward scam then the pool tournament is a larger version of calling someone to say they won prize money but have to provide documentation to claim it. In this case a person says we have prize money but you have to sign up for a tournament and register at a hotel to collect. In either case the person claiming the prize money has to forfeit money or information. Once that is done, they are at the mercy of the person who says the prize money is there.

As for the people that actually have experience with a tournament that helps in understanding what players need to know. And that is promoter/directors are just like pool players they take risks and hope they pay off. Sometimes if they get a lead they can play around.
 
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Mark Griffin said:
One month has passed and it seems the payouts have not taken place. Tony has been in the industry for 40 years or so. I feel (as ohters have stated) a public explanation should have been given from the start. And even more so since a month has passed.

Many have mentioned - what happened to the $100 entry fee paid by 99 players. Good question.

Here is my take (on what could have happened):

When Tony was involved in the events at the Reno Sands there were no attrition clause in the promoter's contract. What that means is that the Sands did not have a minimum number of rooms that had to be 'sold' to the pool players. The Sands agreement was a sweetheart of a deal. Yet they still managed to have the venue lose thousands until they got tired of it and pulled the plug. Remember his 'definition of added money' and his previous press releases that the 'player can stay anywhere'?

The hotels do pool tournaments to fill hotel rooms. The Sands was very lenient in this policy and Tony bragged how 'players can stay anywhere'. I don't know of many events that require players to stay on sight. But I think it should be in the player's best interest to support the venue. If the venue looses money, the event will not happen again.

I am betting that all this added money that Tony talked about was based on a certain occupancy in the Peppermill. Because of low turnout (and other possible factors) - my guess is that he did not meet his requirement and had to make up the difference. Now his money from the hotel has disappeared. (This is why all the mumbo-jumbo about added money is just about half nonsense).

When you sign a contract that has attrition clauses, you can pay a heavy penalty - from not getting your full amount of rebate to having to write a check for the full amount of the numbr of rooms under the guaranteed amount. This can be many thousnads of dollars.

As I said before, this business is not for the faint of heart - or the short bankroll.

All of this is just my guess - but it might be a reasonable situation. No 'loan sharks' or anything else. Just a lower number of people staying at the host venue than predicted. But - remember that Tony is a 'certified hotel planner' and should not get himself into this trap, so maybe this is not what happened.

All I know is this is not right or fair to the pool industry and shame on anyone that supports (or excuses) this type of behavior.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
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Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, but isn't it illegal to publicly divulge terms of someone's private contract without their permission?

To address your point about the Sands shutting down the tournament because players weren't staying there: Why would you imagine that players would stay anywhere else with rates under $30 per night, since the room rebates were being credited towards the players rooms rather than line the pocket of the promoter?

Regarding negotiating contracts with hotels, it's probably not a good idea to assume that Tony or anyone else isn't a better negotiator than you. The truth might prove a bit embarassing.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I think you and Bob are way out of line here and just using this opportunity to express some of your own personal biases.
 
FranCrimi said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, but isn't it illegal to publicly divulge terms of someone's private contract without their permission?

To address your point about the Sands shutting down the tournament because players weren't staying there: Why would you imagine that players would stay anywhere else with rates under $30 per night, since the room rebates were being credited towards the players rooms rather than line the pocket of the promoter?

Regarding negotiating contracts with hotels, it's probably not a good idea to assume that Tony or anyone else isn't a better negotiator than you. The truth might prove a bit embarassing.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I think you and Bob are way out of line here and just using this opportunity to express some of your own personal biases.
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Interesting.

I found Marks responses to be quite measured, and reasonable. The way I read them, it appears that he was trying to be the voice of reason and not to go making wild assumptions.

His explanation of what "might" have occurred also seemed appropriate, and not inflamatory at all. I fail to see what terms of any supposed contract were divulged by Mark in this thread.

I appreciate Marks participation here, and what he is doing for pool. I wonder how you read the same posts and came up with different interpretations. Again, interesting.
 
This is a re-direct folks. Have any of the players been paid yet? Has anyone who posts here spoken with Tony DIRECTLY?

Justadub, I'm with you on this. Way too much anger from the railbirds. Way too little information from the players.

Lyn
 
FranCrimi said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, but isn't it illegal to publicly divulge terms of someone's private contract without their permission?
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No, it's not illegal.

It would be a civil breach of contract if the person was a party to the agreement and had agreed not to disclose details. Many contracts have privacy clauses but they are only binding between the contracted parties.

Chris
 
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Hilarious...where in the hell is this guy? On vacation? I thought he had a pool hall in Fairfield, CA now...no one owed money went there and asked him whats up?

No money paid, no explanation, and we're left with his friends on here defending him. Pretty freaking sad. Are players supposed to be quiet or risk not getting paid at all, and posters here supposed to worry about getting sued for talking about this fiasco?

W....T....F....?

For the record, the first time I went to a pool tourney was at the Sands and I rooted for Tony in every match (Playing Off the Rail year). Told him nice job after watching him drill L. Lemke for 5500 in a ahead set afterhours.

Point is I'm not someone with an axe to grind. Liked the guy when I met him years ago.
 
TATE said:
No, it's not illegal.

It would be a civil breach of contract if the person was a party to the agreement and had agreed not to disclose details. Many contracts have privacy clauses but they are only binding between the contracted parties.

Chris
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I think the point that Fran was trying to make is Tony could be a party of a contract and because of a clause within that contract be restricted on what he can disclosed.

With no disrespect intended Fran, even IF this were the case, written communication should have been released with an official apology saying what happened (winners didn't get paid), why it happened (there was a messed up with contract issues and for legal reasons it can't be disclosed), when all winners will be paid and why pool players should continue trusting they will be paid promptly in future tournaments promoted by Tony.

To not say anything to the players is disrespectful, inconsiderate and skirts the issue. Non payment of winnings to players CAN NOT be treated lightly.

I just want the players to be paid ASAP and I know deep down you must want that too because its right.

Everything we do (our actions) make up what we are and what we represent. There is no need for anyone else to cut Tony down.
Bob
 
Reno USPPA

Just a few thoughts and a few facts from someone close to the situation. As I said before, our poolroom has 4 players that were in the money at the Peppermill, so naturally we are watching this pretty closely. I talk to them daily and as far as I know, none have been paid yet. I'm not sure if Tony owes this forum a public explanation-I do think it would be a good idea- but he definately owes that to the players that are owed money, and it's my understanding each player has gotten a call from Tony with that explanation and update. I know all of our guys have, so the answer to the question 'has anyone talked to Tony' is yes. Speculation from posters who know nothing more about the situation than what they read here is just that, speculation, and some of it has been pretty wild. Mark Griffin knows more about the inner workings of tournament promotion than most anyone, and the 'hotel attrition' take is interesting. Some of the other stuff (loan sharks? really?) is just irresponsible without some evidence to back it up. The 'attrition' may have been a problem at the Peppermill, I have no idea. When the tournament was at the Sands, however, it made no sense to stay anywhere else. The cheapest rooms coupled with the convience of staying in the same place where you were playing/watching so you could run back and forth to your room was great and guys were often (in the beginning anyway) disappointed to find the Sands was full, and they HAD to stay elsewhere. It would be nice to see some more of the players who were at the tournament weigh in here. I know our guys want to be paid, as I'm sure all of them do. I believe Tony wants that, too. Our guys also want to PLAY, and a 19 year-old (who's owed money) was trying to recruit new members yesterday for the USPPA tournament tomorrow, and the others will be there too. Time will tell if they're being naive, but as for now, they don't want to lose the USPPA.

Dave Smith
 
If there is a USPPA tournament tomorrow, perhaps some of the players will get some information then.

We can at least hope, right?
 
There is a second tournament happening before the tournament before it was paid out. It takes my attention because it is another opportunity to collect by the USPPA.

I just hope things work out.

I have nothing personally against the USPPA or the individuals at the tournament or organization. I do have experience with people that over invest and get cheated.
 
Usppa

I should clarify. When I said USPPA tournament on Sunday, I meant our local weekly tournament. Sorry, I wasn't clear on that. I don't know if anything else is going on. If there's any news from here I'll let you know! Dave
 
RackemBilliards said:
Just a few thoughts and a few facts from someone close to the situation. As I said before, our poolroom has 4 players that were in the money at the Peppermill, so naturally we are watching this pretty closely. I talk to them daily and as far as I know, none have been paid yet. I'm not sure if Tony owes this forum a public explanation-I do think it would be a good idea- but he definately owes that to the players that are owed money, and it's my understanding each player has gotten a call from Tony with that explanation and update. I know all of our guys have, so the answer to the question 'has anyone talked to Tony' is yes. Speculation from posters who know nothing more about the situation than what they read here is just that, speculation, and some of it has been pretty wild. Mark Griffin knows more about the inner workings of tournament promotion than most anyone, and the 'hotel attrition' take is interesting. Some of the other stuff (loan sharks? really?) is just irresponsible without some evidence to back it up. The 'attrition' may have been a problem at the Peppermill, I have no idea. When the tournament was at the Sands, however, it made no sense to stay anywhere else. The cheapest rooms coupled with the convience of staying in the same place where you were playing/watching so you could run back and forth to your room was great and guys were often (in the beginning anyway) disappointed to find the Sands was full, and they HAD to stay elsewhere. It would be nice to see some more of the players who were at the tournament weigh in here. I know our guys want to be paid, as I'm sure all of them do. I believe Tony wants that, too. Our guys also want to PLAY, and a 19 year-old (who's owed money) was trying to recruit new members yesterday for the USPPA tournament tomorrow, and the others will be there too. Time will tell if they're being naive, but as for now, they don't want to lose the USPPA.

Dave Smith
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Good point Dave. Tony doesn't owe this forum anything. An official letter from the organization sent to each winner's address on file is a start and it would be even better if one was sent to each paid up member. An official statement posted on the website could easily address most if not all of the issues. This is all basic common sense business stuff. Not paying winnings immediately when due can not be tolerated and there should be no acceptable excuse.

The winners deserve the money they won and common sense says they should have been paid. The Reno tournament players not only paid entry fees but had a requirement to play a certain number of weekly tournaments in order to qualify for the event. Those that paid and lost also deserve and explanation; they could have easily been one of the ones shorted. Those that qualified for the event but couldn't make it also deserve and explanation for the same reason. For the record I was qualified to play in the event but couldn't make it this time and feel I deserve an explanation of what happen.

Like many others, I want to still go to play in the Reno Handicap and Open tournaments. I don't want this to non-payment issue to screw things up for us.

Bob
 
Usppa

levartze said:
Good point Dave. Tony doesn't owe this forum anything. An official letter from the organization sent to each winner's address on file is a start and it would be even better if one was sent to each paid up member. An official statement posted on the website could easily address most if not all of the issues. This is all basic common sense business stuff. Not paying winnings immediately when due can not be tolerated and there should be no acceptable excuse.

The winners deserve the money they won and common sense says they should have been paid. The Reno tournament players not only paid entry fees but had a requirement to play a certain number of weekly tournaments in order to qualify for the event. Those that paid and lost also deserve and explanation; they could have easily been one of the ones shorted. Those that qualified for the event but couldn't make it also deserve and explanation for the same reason. For the record I was qualified to play in the event but couldn't make it this time and feel I deserve an explanation of what happen.

Like many others, I want to still go to play in the Reno Handicap and Open tournaments. I don't want this to non-payment issue to screw things up for us.

Bob[/QUOTE

I certainly agree. I believe that the future of the USPPA and the other connected Peppermill events depend not only on payment of the prize money, but on a logical explanation of what happened this time and how to avoid it in the future. That explanation is clearly overdue. I've passed your thoughts along. Dave
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