Center to where...Pro what..

[JoeyA]

If you're having trouble making the shots in the video and you're placing the cue ball and the object ball in the same spots as what is stated in the video, then you are not currently doing what is required in CTE/Pro One.

This isn't rocket science. It is precise. If you start out with simple shots, object ball and cue ball two feet apart, object ball 1-2 feet from the pocket, you may develop the visual perspectives that can carry you to the next step.

It is apparent that some people look at the video and get it, while others don't get it. It would help to have someone who is successful with using CTE/Pro One to help you see the things that they see.

One of the problems that I find is that the terminology is different than what people are used to and that creates problems right off the bat. The other thing is people are not used to aiming in this manner. It is a unique and different way to aim.

I strongly suggest anyone who is genuinely interested in learning CTE/Pro One to find someone who uses it the way that Stan demonstrates it in the video.

What Stan expresses in the video is exactly what he sees and he describes in excellent detail as to what he is doing.

Start with simple shots no more than two feet apart and work on those shots until you can make them consistently. I've found that people, sometimes just don't do the same things the same way everytime, because they just aren't familiar with CTE/Pro One and that is why they get discouraged.

 

[Mikjary]

Hi Mike,

Now that the DVD is out and should explain all without the veil of secrecy imposed by Hal.

Let's discuss everything...until we all understand the finite details.

If I sight my right eye at the right edge of the OB, Is my right eye over the cue and visa versa?

Does this work whether I need to shift the cue from the center of the CB, pre-pivot to the right or to the left...depending on the "angle" of the cut?


Thanks. :wink:

Hey Big E,

Always good to hear from you. You have a knack for asking good questions!:grin:

A couple of days ago I had a conversation with Gerry Kanov about eye position (BTW, Gerry missed a hill/hill 9 ball against Buddy Hall at The Music City Open!).

He noticed almost all players move their head back and forth over their cue as they shoot from the left and right, especially Johnny Archer. I mentioned Perfect Aim and adjusting your eyes until the shot looks right. After a while you naturally get down on the shot without too much movement. Except for a straight in shot, your eyes trade the work load.

If you aim your right eye at CB center to the right edge of the OB (CTEL), your stick will not be under your right eye. You don't aim down the CTEL. Your visual lineup will show you where you need to stand. Your cue will be brought in and you pivot. Depending on the cut, your head will position itself with Cte to see the fraction you need to contact on the OB.

Some lucky players have a strong dominant eye and line up solely using just the dominant eye. No need to have the other eye help as much so they put the cue directly under one eye, like Earl or Jasmine.

To be clear, if the CTEL is through the right side of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your right eye. If the CTEL is through the left edge of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your left eye. In both cases you use the other eye to sight the other edge of the CB to A, B or B,C, respectively. Your head position affects how you sight the balls, also.

This is covered in Geno's Perfect Aim dvd if anybody wants to check it out.

Best,
Mike

 

[JoeyA]

Hey Big E,

To be clear, if the CTEL is through the right side of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your right eye. If the CTEL is through the left edge of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your left eye. In both cases you use the other eye to sight the other edge of the CB to A, B or B,C. Your head position affects how you sight the balls, also.

This is covered in Geno's Perfect Aim dvd if anybody wants to check it out.

Best,
Mike

Mike, I like what you described very much.

 

[JB Cases]

Can you diagram the starting position of the cue at CTE, the pre-pivot shift to the side, pivot to center for a 5 degree and the same 85 degree cut?

We can then progress to explaining the shift for the OB being down table...if it's not the same shift.

So much can be absorbed in the bridge even in an overhead film. I can reverse engineer your diagrams accurately in computer aided drawings (CAD).

Thanks.

I feel that this works best when taught through demonstration.

If there are any shots you would like me to demonstrate then please diagram them using the CueTable.

We need to STOP trying to diagram it to the millimeter and make it fit the Ghost Ball model. That's not how this works in my opinion.

Although I am SURE that someone can diagram the motions because it seems that anything which can be done on table should be able to be observed and diagrammed properly.

I am willing to be a test subject for you and try to perform the shots you ask me to using the system as I know it but I am not willing to spend any more time trying to diagram something I know how to do. Sorry but it's not that important to me anymore and I am out of my depth when I try anyway.

I have a pretty good idea what's happening based on the diagrams I have already supplied. Based on those diagrams you should be able to work out the amount of pivot for any given shot and bridge distance.

LIke I told Dr. Dave though I don't use ANY particular bridge distance when I shoot that is based AT ALL on the angle of the shot or the amount of pivot. In fact for the past week my bridge distance only varies based on whether I am using draw or follow. That kind of flies in the face of conventional instruction in books doesn't it?

Some things are not taught in books and they come from people who train champions. If you are lucky enough to get some coaching from that level of coach then you can learn things that other coaches don't know. It's a bit of a catch-22, the higher level of player you teach the more you need be able to teach. But that's another subject.

So like I said, if you would like me to do the shots then show me which ones you want. Then you can do all the analysis and diagramming you like based on your observations. IF so much can be "absorbed" by the bridge then any attempt to precisely diagram what the player SHOULD do is kind of pointless don't you think because of a human being's proclivity to adapt as needed to the situation as perceived through their senses?

 

[duckie]

I can see the DVD cleared things up regarding CTE, clear as mud.

Man, I'm laughing. After reading the explanations trying to explain the DVD that was suspose to explain CTE, Ghost ball is so simple compared to CTE.

Sure glad I didn't waste my money.

For everybody having problem swith CTE, make the arrow from Babe Cranfield and use it instead of CTE. It cost's nothing to make and will give you a real world reference to train by.

Just too funny,,,,,,,,

 

[LAMas]

Hey Big E,

Always good to hear from you. You have a knack for asking good questions!:grin:

A couple of days ago I had a conversation with Gerry Kanov about eye position (BTW, Gerry missed a hill/hill 9 ball against Buddy Hall at The Music City Open!).

He noticed almost all players move their head back and forth over their cue as they shoot from the left and right, especially Johnny Archer. I mentioned Perfect Aim and adjusting your eyes until the shot looks right. After a while you naturally get down on the shot without too much movement. Except for a straight in shot, your eyes trade the work load.

If you aim your right eye at CB center to the right edge of the OB (CTEL), your stick will not be under your right eye. You don't aim down the CTEL. Your visual lineup will show you where you need to stand. Your cue will be brought in and you pivot. Depending on the cut, your head will position itself with Cte to see the fraction you need to contact on the OB.

Some lucky players have a strong dominant eye and line up solely using just the dominant eye. No need to have the other eye help as much so they put the cue directly under one eye, like Earl or Jasmine.

To be clear, if the CTEL is through the right side of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your right eye. If the CTEL is through the left edge of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your left eye. In both cases you use the other eye to sight the other edge of the CB to A, B or B,C, respectively. Your head position affects how you sight the balls, also.

This is covered in Geno's Perfect Aim dvd if anybody wants to check it out.

Best,
Mike

Mike,
OK, the straight in shot is aimed with the dominant eye aligned over the cue through the CB to the OB to the pocket/target…understood. After all of the lateral shifting of the cue pre-pivot, then pivot and back to center of the CB, you should arrive with the dominant eye aligned over the cue as in the straight shot above, but at a different angle.

In order to arrive at that position, you cannot be aiming at CTE for you cannot be aligned properly after the pivot….without moving your body/stance to the side to get over and aligned to the new cue location/aim.

So you get down on the shot with the right eye over the cue looking at the right edge of the OB and visa versa. The other eye is looking to align with the “quarters’ of the OB. In order to do this, your cue, bridge and body are moving away from the original CTE. When you arrive at the correct “quarter” with the other eye, you pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.

Your right eye, in this case, will no longer be over the cue, post-pivot, but instead you will be in correct alignment/aim with the right eye off to the side of the cue.

I imagine that one can focus with the other eye to the “eights” of the OB for finer resolution if the cut “angle” requires. You can start with “quarters” and progress to “eights” and soon you will not have to think in these discrete fractions, but will be guided to the correct position through the memory and visualizations of successful results.

With this said, you will eventually just visualize the shot, move into the correct stance, get down, fine aim, stroke and shoot….with the CTE and pivot no longer necessary – what others here have said.

How I see it for now. I don’t have to get into the fact that this system is self compensating for the OB appearing smaller at distance where the fractions also become smaller and necessarily decreasing the included angle…you knew that. LOL

Thanks all.

Then again I may be all wrong.:wink:

 

[JB Cases]

I can see the DVD cleared things up regarding CTE, clear as mud.

Man, I'm laughing. After reading the explanations trying to explain the DVD that was suspose to explain CTE, Ghost ball is so simple compared to CTE.

Sure glad I didn't waste my money.

For everybody having problem swith CTE, make the arrow from Babe Cranfield and use it instead of CTE. It cost's nothing to make and will give you a real world reference to train by.

Just too funny,,,,,,,,

Are you still here? Can you use the Arrow when you are playing? No you can't. Do you want to make people run around with the Arrow placing it on the table for every shot when they play?

Oh that's right - CTE does not REQUIRE imaging any PHANTOM balls and does not need any extra devices to learn to use it.

And CTE can be used on every shot - including those shots which you have never tried before. Imagine that?

I'd hate to be in a game and a shot comes up where I never put the Arrow on it and I don't know what to do.

But if I am using CTE then I have the solution right there, use the system make the ball get the trophy.

But anyway that's all academic. NOW people are discussing the concrete aspects of a CTE system which is now out there to be discussed.

No more of knockers like you coming on here and being able to say that the 'instructions' are not available. Whether people get those instructions or not is another topic.

As we see MANY people got them right away and others need some more help.

And when they do get it they will have a tool that is millions of times more effective than your stupid Arrow and all it's Ghost Ball "trainer" siblings. Adjusting for inflation it's BILLIONS of times better.

No matter what you do you can't stop this flood. It must be like an arrow through your heart that Stan made the video and now people can discuss the nuts and bolts. Let's see what things look like a month from now when more and more people figure this out.

Does the arrow show you the direction this is going?

If you want to have a shootout on live video I will bet you $100 a shot - we each put up ten shots and who ever loses pays off on the shots that they missed. You are not allowed to use "the arrow". I will use CTE and PIVOT on every shot including straight in shots.

Care to put your money where your mouth is?



















Of course you don't.

 

[mattiefingaz]

Mr Barton...I tried to send you a PM...you're full sir.

 

[Mowem down]

Id would have to say the last three pages of this thread have turned out to be pretty damn good. To all of you that have tried to help in the understanding I would have to say " A tip of my hat "... JBcases offers to not only refund monies but have people call him at work to discuss the dvd, well thats pretty dang sporty... I cant say Ive came to a understanding but what would you expect from a guy who cant spell beleave. Ill keep checking in though, sombody said you can use it without really moving your cue ( or somthing to that regard) Id love to see a video showing that.

 

[LAMas]

"But anyway that's all academic. NOW people are discussing the concrete aspects of a CTE system which is now out there to be discussed."

JB,
You, Spidy and others have described CTE in spades, but some will never grasp it - others have and will - despite Hal's admonition to secrecy.

I don't think that Hal's system (that I don't know) needed to be held in secrecy for most will require instruction from instructors/teachers of the art to get them there. There are few that don't need some help to accelerate there mastery of pool...even if it is just observing (back in the day) what the better players do.

Now that the DVD is out there, I trust that it will help many and advance the art and reduce the frustration of learning how to aim...for many.:wink:

 

[JB Cases]

Id would have to say the last three pages of this thread have turned out to be pretty damn good. To all of you that have tried to help in the understanding I would have to say " A tip of my hat "... JBcases offers to not only refund monies but have people call him at work to discuss the dvd, well thats pretty dang sporty... I cant say Ive came to a understanding but what would you expect from a guy who cant spell beleave. Ill keep checking in though, sombody said you can use it without really moving your cue ( or somthing to that regard) Id love to see a video showing that.

I don't know what you mean by use it without moving the cue but I did say that you can use it without pivoting.

What I mean by that is that you can "see" all the alignments and where the cue will end up WITHOUT actually putting your bridge hand down. Then if you want to you can simply lay the cue on that line with your bridge hand set.

I personally find this to be more cumbersome and not as precise than simply sighting, placing my bridge hand and pivoting to center.

When I have time I will do a video demonstrating what I mean. To be fair I'd also kind of like to wait a few more days until I get the DVD so I can be on the same page as the rest of you and just discuss the content as presented.

 

[JB Cases]

"But anyway that's all academic. NOW people are discussing the concrete aspects of a CTE system which is now out there to be discussed."

JB,
You, Spidy and others have described CTE in spades, but some will never grasp it - others have and will - despite Hal's admonition to secrecy.

I don't think that Hal's system (that I don't know) needed to be held in secrecy for most will require instruction from instructors/teachers of the art to get them there. There are few that don't need some help to accelerate there mastery of pool...even if it is just observing (back in the day) what the better players do.

Now that the DVD is out there, I trust that it will help many and advance the art and reduce the frustration of learning how to aim...for many.:wink:

I don't know that it was so much that Hal wanted it kept secret just because. What he said to me is that he would like it if I didn't try to tell people how to use his systems on the internet. He said I could show people in person and have them call him but not to try and describe it in detail. I guess that might be because he didn't want other people flubbing it.

Whatever the case may be it's always been something where I can show someone and they ususally get it within minutes but if I try to describe it I end up confusing myself while writing.

The actual motion is so damn simple but it's impossible for me to accurately describe it using text. This is SUPER frustrating for me.

When I was in Chicago I tried to show Pat Johnson and he was grilling me like a FBI Agent going after a terrorist.

WHY do you put your hand THERE, HOW do you know where to pivot? What if the balls are here, how is this shot different?

Instead of simply getting behind the balls and trying to see what I see and do what I do he wanted millimeter precise instructions.

It's going to sound really hokey but using CTE is really a different way of being when approaching pool shots. I am to the point where I can barely stand to shoot a shot without using it. Even the simplest shots I use CTE to line up and get in position. When I am warmed up it just flows.

I personally believe that no amount of text and diagrams will truly help people to learn this. As much as I HATE to say this you have to sort of feel it.

And what I mean by that is that you have got to let go of ghost ball and start working from the Edge of the object ball. Stop trying to reconcile the geometry of GB and just let go and "see" the edges.

Years ago me and Fred Agnir were messing around in Valley Forge and Fred was showing me another of Hal's systems.

This one was based on aiming at either the left side or the right side of the object ball. That's it. All you did was kind of just generally aim somewhere on the side of the ball - on the right side for example if the cut was to the left. No pivot required.

And it worked. Now there is a "system" which I would say requires some kind of subconscious help. But it really works.

Not a lot of people on here know this but Fred probably knows the exact details to most of Hal's systems. He is a mechanical engineer who actually earns his bread using his engineering skills. He is not the romantic buy-every-pitch type person. Fred spent years arguing the pro-side of the non-traditional aiming system debate. But despite all that no one ever really "got it" because it comes down to intangibles that are really difficult to write about.

Now, I am sure that science can indeed dissect and figure out WHY Hal's systems work mechanically as well as psychologically. And I fervently hope that this is the direction Dr. Dave will take the information he now has.

I hope that everyone can appreciate the effort Stan has put forth here in these past months to bring some clarity to Hal's systems by at least putting out a video that teaches them to the best of his ability. You all have got to understand that this was not an easy task.

And it's clear that some people won't get it the first go around. I didn't get it either when Hal was telling me to do things that went against everything I thought I knew about pool.

Anyway, as I said, I remain at your service to be a real world tester to the best of my abilities. I found a little while ago that it's kind of hard to set up an 85 degree-ish shot and get the whole cue in frame without contorting my body and getting into an awkward position. Also I hit those shots and either made the ball or got very close. I think that when the cut gets that thin then there certainly needs to be some adjustment for throw - just a tiny touch. I tried them as pure hits with no adjustment using stock CTE as I know it.

 

[PistolPat]

If people only knew..................

Hey Big E,

Always good to hear from you. You have a knack for asking good questions!:grin:

A couple of days ago I had a conversation with Gerry Kanov about eye position (BTW, Gerry missed a hill/hill 9 ball against Buddy Hall at The Music City Open!).

He noticed almost all players move their head back and forth over their cue as they shoot from the left and right, especially Johnny Archer. I mentioned Perfect Aim and adjusting your eyes until the shot looks right. After a while you naturally get down on the shot without too much movement. Except for a straight in shot, your eyes trade the work load.

If you aim your right eye at CB center to the right edge of the OB (CTEL), your stick will not be under your right eye. You don't aim down the CTEL. Your visual lineup will show you where you need to stand. Your cue will be brought in and you pivot. Depending on the cut, your head will position itself with Cte to see the fraction you need to contact on the OB.

Some lucky players have a strong dominant eye and line up solely using just the dominant eye. No need to have the other eye help as much so they put the cue directly under one eye, like Earl or Jasmine.

To be clear, if the CTEL is through the right side of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your right eye. If the CTEL is through the left edge of the OB, you sight the CTEL with your left eye. In both cases you use the other eye to sight the other edge of the CB to A, B or B,C, respectively. Your head position affects how you sight the balls, also.

This is covered in Geno's Perfect Aim dvd if anybody wants to check it out.

Best,
Mike

Surprised not a lot of people notice this.............

 

[Dead Crab]

I find it troublesome that Perfect Aim is now being considered a prerequisite for Pro One to work.

If you look at the eye position of many of the current great players, it is obvious that they are not "Perfect Aim" practitioners. In fact, many of the best are obviously essentially monocular sighters.

It would also beg the question: If you were successful with "Perfect Aim", why in the world would you need Pro One, given that your aim is already "perfect"?

I also find it troublesome that there are numerous posts in this thread offering expert opinion on a video that they have not viewed. If you haven't seen it, please clearly state this. Better yet, hold your opinion until you have.

Thank you.

 

[justadub]

If you remember correctly, Stan even mentioned Geno in a thread back a few weeks ago. Even tho he hadn't seen the video, ya think he might've realized there might be something to the issue of where your eyes are, at least for some people?

 

[Island Drive]

Without good mechanics and fundamentals you'll never play well. No matter what system you use. Its funny everybody wants an aiming system to "shorten the learning curve" but these same people refuse to put the time in at the table to develop any type of fundamentals. It's just like diet pills being so popular because everyone wants to lose weight but nobody wants to go the gym...That's it im done..

Grady once said, most good players have hit at least two million balls to get to where they play good, and of course, no guarantee. It's very difficult to ''get into'' the posters comments when he spells (believe) improperly. It's like saying I'm an Onest person. Instead of an Honest person. BELEAVE is not believable.
I believe, I never Bee Leave, this word being misspelled chews away at my beliefs that he's saying something important.
Now bees do leave the hive :grin-square:

 

[Luxury]

Id would have to say the last three pages of this thread have turned out to be pretty damn good. To all of you that have tried to help in the understanding I would have to say " A tip of my hat "... JBcases offers to not only refund monies but have people call him at work to discuss the dvd, well thats pretty dang sporty... I cant say Ive came to a understanding but what would you expect from a guy who cant spell beleave. Ill keep checking in though, sombody said you can use it without really moving your cue ( or somthing to that regard) Id love to see a video showing that.

I concur. JB Cases is top notch in my book. Haven't inquired with Stan about a refund yet but John's offer to refund my dvd as well is a relief.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I've never used CTE, I tried it based on online instructions and couldn't make a ball so I figure I'm doing it all wrong. But from the stuff I read, I think I understand why it seems to be so beneficial.

From the few instructional vids I've seen, this pivot stuff seems to be a way to get the cue lined up to the shot and not JUST finding an aiming spot to aim at which is what most (perhaps all) systems do. So in this way it looks like the process of CTE/Pro 1/whateves is in fact based around helping a players mechanics.

But I also have to agree with Sfleinen that after a certain point you need to let go of your conscious mind as much as possible.

 

[LAMas]

Without seeing the DVD but having spent time trying CTE variations out.
This how it works for me:
I am showing Mike's starting with the left eye looking and lined up at/to the CTE (of the left edge of the OB).
From this stance, I shift the cue (without regard for the CB) to the right and center (1/2 ball) of the smaller appearing OB down table.
Shifting farther to the right makes me miss the OB entirely...for my normal bridge location.
For cut angles less than 30 degrees, I shift to the left...but that is off of the left edge of the OB and is thus shakey for there are no fractional points or A, B or C to aim at.
I must be doing this wrong.
This diagram may help some.



Thanks all.

 

[Banks]

Grady once said, most good players have hit at least two million balls to get to where they play good, and of course, no guarantee. It's very difficult to ''get into'' the posters comments when he spells (believe) improperly. It's like saying I'm an Onest person. Instead of an Honest person. BELEAVE is not believable.
I believe, I never Bee Leave, this word being misspelling chews away at my beliefs that he's saying something important.
Now bees do leave the hive :grin-square:

I've voiced my opinions on the issues of this thread before, so I'm staying out of it.

Other than that, this post is one of the most ignorant things I've seen on here. You're seriously judging people based on their spelling, grammar, etcetera? You're full of (yourself) now.

If that's the case, you should have used quotes for Grady's comment. And people don't play "good", they play well. You also show, according to your own view, that you are excessively lazy in using "it's" instead of "it is". You also did not punctuate that last sentence. Using your logic, your opinions are now worthless.

Have a nice day.