BCA ruling or perhaps just common sense?

poolfool1957

poolfool1957

I know the pieces fit
Silver Member
I'm a league operator and as such I receive e-mails from league captians asking for rulings or other actions to be taken when something out of the ordinary occurs. We play BCA 8 ball in a rural bar league.

This one had me scratching my head a bit:
Player A is at the table and shoots a short one rail bank and pockets his ball. The cueball comes to rest locked onto the 8 ball. He steps up to survey the upcoming shot, looks at all of his possibilities and after about 30 seconds he declares "I didn't call my shot so I guess it's yours" to his opponent.
As you can guess, this did not go over well and a pretty good argument ensued which ended with the BCA rulebook being thrown to the floor and a vile name shouted at the the opposing teams captian.
They did agree that the was no foul commited but that Player A lost his shot. Played B got up to the table and played the shot with the cue still frozen to the 8. Player B eventually lost the game.

My first thought was that I would have told Player A to keep on shooting since it was obvious he was attempting a easy one rail bank and although he didn't call his shot he also did not call a safety. If that doesn't fly we do a re-rack.
My second thought was that even though I think his declaration that he didn't call his shot was a bullcrap move it was also pretty clever. He accomplished his goal at that point which was to weasel his way out a difficult next shot but he also went on to win the game...love it or hate it, I cant help but admire his thought process in a twisted sort of way.

Any thoughts on this? Any specifics in the BCA rules that need to be addressed further? We have the self declaration on losing the next shot because he hooked himself and we also have the behavior issue with throwing the rulebook and swearing at the opposing captian.

Anyone ever had this happen to them? I've been playing for 45 years and have never personally seen it.
 
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He played by the rules, I'd say.

It isn't against the rules to exploit the rules, is it?

Smart move.

The only way to "fix" this is to change the rules.

Btw, the next time I played this guy, I'd use those same rules on his every
shot.

Jeff Livingston
 
poolfool1957 said:
I'm a league operator and as such I receive e-mails from league captians asking for rulings or other actions to be taken when something out of the ordinary occurs. We play BCA 8 ball in a rural bar league.

This one had me scratching my head a bit:
Player A is at the table and shoots a short one rail bank and pockets his ball. The cueball comes to rest locked onto the 8 ball. He steps up to survey the upcoming shot, looks at all of his possibilities and after about 30 seconds he declares "I didn't call my shot so I guess it's yours" to his opponent.
As you can guess, this did not go over well and a pretty good argument ensued which ended with the BCA rulebook being thrown to the floor and a vile name shouted at the the opposing teams captian.
They did agree that the was no foul commited but that Player A lost his shot. Played B got up to the table and played the shot with the cue still frozen to the 8. Player B eventually lost the game.

My first thought was that I would have told Player A to keep on shooting since it was obvious he was attempting a easy one rail bank and although he didn't call his shot he also did not call a safety. If that doesn't fly we do a re-rack.
My second thought was that even though I think his declaration that he didn't call his shot was a bullcrap move it was also pretty clever. He accomplished his goal at that point which was to weasel his way out a difficult next shot but he also went on to win the game...love it or hate it, I cant help but admire his thought process in a twisted sort of way.

Any thoughts on this? Any specifics in the BCA rules that need to be addressed further? We have the self declaration on losing the next shot because he hooked himself and we also have the behavior issue with throwing the rulebook and swearing at the opposing captian.

Anyone ever had this happen to them? I've been playing for 45 years and have never personally seen it.
Click to expand...

Tell player A it his his shot as he looked like he was playing that shot and did not call a safety. Otherwise you open yourself up to the guy who takes a straight on shot and then does the same thing after seeing that he hooks himself.

He should also be reprimanded by you, the league operator for pulling that crap.

Leagueguy
 
LeagueGuy said:
Tell player A it his his shot as he looked like he was playing that shot and did not call a safety. Otherwise you open yourself up to the guy who takes a straight on shot and then does the same thing after seeing that he hooks himself.

He should also be reprimanded by you, the league operator for pulling that crap.

Leagueguy
Click to expand...

You're right. He could claim he was trying to block the pocket or reposition the ball somewhere.
 
uh uh

Saw this move in a 1-pocket game once.
The player missed his hole and sold out.
The cue ball was almost on the spot.
He said he double hit the cue ball and started to spot a ball...which would
freeze on the cue ball therefore getting a safety.
His opponent wouldn't go for it...and rightfully so.

If I was the LO..it wouldn't be allowed..and I consider it cheating
 
Pathetic....

We have an unwritten rule in league.....we don't make players call shots when we can clearly see their intentions, even on a short bank......the guy is a bad sport, plain and simple....personally, I am a big believer in the spirit of the rules....safety play needs to be called upfront, otherwise it should not be granted....you might send out a specific email to all captains and let them know safety play must be called....

This is just another douchebag example.....you take a league with good sports and good people, and now you have to manage around a dishonest few and make it more complicated for the masses.....it's a bunch of BS....kick the guy out of the league, make a clear statement that this type of behavior is not acceptable.....you might lose a few people in the process, but you will gain a ton of respect....

Just curious.....have you had any grief from this team/guy previously??? My captain wouldn't allow us to pull this type of crap, so not only the player is a problem, but the captain also soiled the spirit of the game....
 
Player A would have kept shooting if the CB wasnt frozen to the eight. Obvious shots dont need to be called when I play and it seems like he was obviously trying to bank.
 
Last time I read the BCAPL rule book, you have to call any shot which is not obvious. Including banks, combinations and shots where the pocket is not obvious. High angle cut shots and rail first kick shots come to mind. The original shooter is correct in his rule interpretation. He did not call the bank. Therefore the cue ball is his opponents. Where it lays. Not good sportsmanship but legal! I'm sure if he had a shot on the eight, he'd have continued to shoot. I'm hoping I would have asked him what he was doing before he shot. If it wasn't obvious. Too many of us don't pay attention till it is your turn at the table. Very bad habit.

Lyn
 
Off With His Head!

I agree with Big Perm. Otherwise you end up with BS rules like mark your pocket and slop counts. A great time to make a statement about sportsmanship and the spirit of the rules. There are other leagues where this kind of move is common. Don't let it happen to yours.

Big Perm said:
Pathetic....

We have an unwritten rule in league.....we don't make players call shots when we can clearly see their intentions, even on a short bank......the guy is a bad sport, plain and simple....personally, I am a big believer in the spirit of the rules....safety play needs to be called upfront, otherwise it should not be granted....you might send out a specific email to all captains and let them know safety play must be called....

This is just another douchebag example.....you take a league with good sports and good people, and now you have to manage around a dishonest few and make it more complicated for the masses.....it's a bunch of BS....kick the guy out of the league, make a clear statement that this type of behavior is not acceptable.....you might lose a few people in the process, but you will gain a ton of respect....

Just curious.....have you had any grief from this team/guy previously??? My captain wouldn't allow us to pull this type of crap, so not only the player is a problem, but the captain also soiled the spirit of the game....
Click to expand...
 
This is one of those challenges with call pocket. Either you call'em all or you don't, IMHO. Even if they're obvious. Just a grunt and a point of the cue to the pocket is enough for the "obvious" ones, if your opponent is paying attention to the game. Then you don't get foolishness like this.

A shame it gets to this point.
 
Player A is wrong. His intent was to bank the ball.

If you allow this type of NITTY small time lawyer BS to happen, you will have opened up a can of worms in your league. I have always hated the fact that you have to "mark" the pocket on the 8. I'm sure the reason this rule was put in place was because of NITS like this. Why just the 8 if you are going to defend the rule? Why not every ball? Is my "word" only good for balls 1 thru 7?

Leagues can not afford to have a ref at every table (nor should they have to).
Players are supposed to police them selves.

Did he call every shot in that game? I highly doubt it. If he didn't and he continued to shoot then he has clearly cheated and fouled.

What he did is not in the spirit of the rules. Plain and simple.
 
Player B should have simply told Player A(hole) that he seen him motion toward the intended pocket and the bank was a legal shot. End of story,imo.
 
I'd start with taking that game win away from Player A, and giving it to Player B based on poor sportsmanship. If player A really can't abide that - show him the door.
 
IMHO, the spirit of the rules is you call non-obvious shots or when the intended pocket may be in question. Clearly he made the ball in the intended pocket and there was no confusion on where he was going. It also sounds like he acknowledged he made the intended shot, not that he claimed he was really aiming for another pocket. Again, IMHO, only player B would be able to step in for not calling the pocket if he was unsure. Player A should be able to give ball in hand, but in no way should they be able to make an intended shot, look over the table, then pass it off as an after-the-fact safety.

It's not clever, it's questionable technicality rule-book cheating.
 
How on earth can the shooter be ruled he called a safe?

You cannot call 'safe' after the shot. Safety calls are NEVER obvious. NEVER.

If your league has 'approved' that short rail banks are considered OBVIOUS shots, than again... this guy called his pocket.

IMO this is just an example of a pool player gettign away with UNSPORTSMANLIKE conduct, plain and simple.

What good is having a rule book if there are no players or league operators stong enough to enforce it.

Safety call after the shot... BS. Weak all around. I surely would not play in this league.
 
I'm with DesmoCourtney and BigPerm on this one. The way I see it, Player A cheated, plain and simple. Would never have gotten this far if I was on the scene as LO. Harder to do now that he got away with it, but I'd still kick him out of the league and warn his captain that he better not allow that BS again on his team or he'll be kicked out too. Explain to the whole league what happened and why you took the action.

I'd hate to lose the players from the league, you might lose a couple of his buddies or his whole team. I'd say good riddance. I think you will lose more players in the long term by letting this sh*t slide. And those will be the players you don't want to lose because they are the good sports that don't want to deal with this kind of crap, and shouldn't have to. They'll start asking each other if they know of any other leagues in the area and start defecting from your league in small groups, starting next session if not before. Even good sports don't like being screwed.

Big Perm said:
Pathetic....

We have an unwritten rule in league.....we don't make players call shots when we can clearly see their intentions, even on a short bank......the guy is a bad sport, plain and simple....personally, I am a big believer in the spirit of the rules....safety play needs to be called upfront, otherwise it should not be granted....you might send out a specific email to all captains and let them know safety play must be called....

This is just another douchebag example.....you take a league with good sports and good people, and now you have to manage around a dishonest few and make it more complicated for the masses.....it's a bunch of BS....kick the guy out of the league, make a clear statement that this type of behavior is not acceptable.....you might lose a few people in the process, but you will gain a ton of respect....

Just curious.....have you had any grief from this team/guy previously??? My captain wouldn't allow us to pull this type of crap, so not only the player is a problem, but the captain also soiled the spirit of the game....
Click to expand...
 
Appreciate all of the feedback. Does anyone have an opinion on the behavior after the shot?
I would like to add that this player has never been a problem in the past.
Also need to add that this is a small town traveling league with 17 teams. There are 3 of us that operate the league and 2 of 3 play on the same team. No league operators were at this match and we were not informed of the incident until the following day. It would be easy if it were a black and white issue but then again, it would not be worthy of a post if that were the case.
We want to take action but at the same time we want it to be just action and not simply a reaction that is hard to justify.
 
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