BCA ruling or perhaps just common sense?

[WoodyJ]

While I agree with what you say, in the original scenario, player A did NOT call a foul on himself.

Um-m-m, did I miss something?

Player A shot. Then 30 sec. after reviewing the table he called a foul on himself for not calling a non obvious shot.

 

[alstl]

I believe in pool you should win with a pool cue, not by pulling chicken shit stuff and exploiting a loophole in the rules. I would have told player A it was his shot, you can't shoot a shot and then decide later if you like your position.

 

[poolfool1957]

Um-m-m, did I miss something?

Player A shot. Then 30 sec. after reviewing the table he called a foul on himself for not calling a non obvious shot.

The call by Player A was "I didn't call that shot so I guess its it's your turn"
That did not lead to a declaration of a foul. A foul would have resulted in BIH. This was him conceding the next shot to his opponent at a most opportune time for him.
As far as communication with the league operators...we all have cell phones but we play a lot of matches in the boonies out in rural Wisconsin. Most places have spotty reception if any at all.
The times we hear about an issue in real time are when the team captains think enough to call the taverns on a land line.

Gotta say that I think some of the replies have been outstanding! We will no doubt use some of what has been communicated here.

 

[jason]

The call by Player A was "I didn't call that shot so I guess its it's your turn"
That did not lead to a declaration of a foul. A foul would have resulted in BIH. This was him conceding the next shot to his opponent at a most opportune time for him.
As far as communication with the league operators...we all have cell phones but we play a lot of matches in the boonies out in rural Wisconsin. Most places have spotty reception if any at all.
The times we hear about an issue in real time are when the team captains think enough to call the taverns on a land line.

Gotta say that I think some of the replies have been outstanding! We will no doubt use some of what has been communicated here.

Keep us posted on how you handle this. Do you replay the match? Forfeit player A? Leave it as is?

I personally don't think you can be to harsh on Player A at this point since your initial decision was wishy washy at best, but it positively shows the league a lot to come here and seek advice. I might also print this thread out and distribute it to your league members after setting your new policy of course to explain your resolution.

 

[poolfool1957]

We have not actually taken any action yet. This incident just occured this past week and both teams know we are looking into it. Can't call it wishy washy just yet. With all the knowledge/experience that has come across in this thread I think we can come up with something solid for the teams and the league.
I knew that bringing this issue to this forum would be of a benefit to my league. I hope it might help someone else when a very odd, obscure incident happens in your league......and it will!

Keep us posted on how you handle this. Do you replay the match? Forfeit player A? Leave it as is?

I personally don't think you can be to harsh on Player A at this point since your initial decision was wishy washy at best, but it positively shows the league a lot to come here and seek advice. I might also print this thread out and distribute it to your league members after setting your new policy of course to explain your resolution.

 

[beerpressure]

Him looking at the shot for 30 seconds just shows what his intentions were.

 

[Brian in VA]

We have not actually taken any action yet. This incident just occured this past week and both teams know we are looking into it. Can't call it wishy washy just yet. With all the knowledge/experience that has come across in this thread I think we can come up with something solid for the teams and the league.
I knew that bringing this issue to this forum would be of a benefit to my league. I hope it might help someone else when a very odd, obscure incident happens in your league......and it will!

FWIW, in my league I let the team captains know that it's their responsibility to know the rules, agree on rulings and decide what should be done in all situations. If they can't agree on the ruling they can come to me for it and I will rule; at that time, it's over regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. Once the final decision has been made, there is no do-over.

The hard part of ruling on one where no league officials were present is that you have to rely on hearsay evidence and this makes for a tough call.

I don't have an answer for you except to tell you that no matter what all of you decide, let everyone know it's a final decision and isn't up for further debate. Good luck!

Brian in VA

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

I'm a league operator and as such I receive e-mails from league captians asking for rulings or other actions to be taken when something out of the ordinary occurs. We play BCA 8 ball in a rural bar league.

This one had me scratching my head a bit:
Really, pretty simple for most any good LO !Player A is at the table and shoots a short one rail bank and pockets his ball. The cueball comes to rest locked onto the 8 ball. He steps up to survey the upcoming shot, looks at all of his possibilities and after about 30 seconds he declares "I didn't call my shot so I guess it's yours" to his opponent.
As you can guess, this did not go over well and a pretty good argument ensued which ended with the BCA rulebook being thrown to the floor and a vile name shouted at the the opposing teams captian.
They did agree that the was no foul commited but that Player A lost his shot. Played B got up to the table and played the shot with the cue still frozen to the 8. Player B eventually lost the game.

My first thought was that I would have told Player A to keep on shooting since it was obvious he was attempting a easy one rail bank and although he didn't call his shot he also did not call a safety. If that doesn't fly we do a re-rack. See, even you knew the answer but failed to act accordingly.My second thought was that even though I think his declaration that he didn't call his shot was a bullcrap move it was also pretty clever. He accomplished his goal at that point which was to weasel his way out a difficult next shot but he also went on to win the game...love it or hate it, I cant help but admire his thought process in a twisted sort of way. And now we have you, the LO admiring a completely BS move that would get you shot or stabbed just about anywhere in Chicago if you were playing for money.

Any thoughts on this? Any specifics in the BCA rules that need to be addressed further? We have the self declaration on losing the next shot because he hooked himself and we also have the behavior issue with throwing the rulebook and swearing at the opposing captian. Some guy threw a rule book and used profanity after someone pulled this BS move. That guy showed some considerable restraint in my opinion and should be given a free pass, and an apology from you for not using commonsense immediately. Anyone ever had this happen to them? I've been playing for 45 years and have never personally seen it.

You are the LO. You know what is right and what is wrong. You cannot always go by the book, it is the intent that counts. Make the decision that is right. Do you really need scumbags like player A in your league anyways, really ?? Do we really need scumbags like him anywhere?? Tell this moron that after consulting some of the top Pool Gods on the internet that you have reasonably ascertained that player A conducted himself in a manner that is not representative of the league stands for and that he lacked good sportsmanship, and then tell the douche he forfeits the game,and the next time he will be out of the league. Then go tell Player B he won, and buy him a cold beer with you heartfelt apologies. And then keep an eye on douche for the rest of the season because somebody is gonna kill that dumb piece of sh*t.

This is a NO BRAINER imho.

 

[WoodyJ]

The call by Player A was "I didn't call that shot so I guess its it's your turn"
That did not lead to a declaration of a foul. A foul would have resulted in BIH. This was him conceding the next shot to his opponent at a most opportune time for him.
As far as communication with the league operators...we all have cell phones but we play a lot of matches in the boonies out in rural Wisconsin. Most places have spotty reception if any at all.
The times we hear about an issue in real time are when the team captains think enough to call the taverns on a land line.

Gotta say that I think some of the replies have been outstanding! We will no doubt use some of what has been communicated here.

O.K. you've piqued my curiosity so I'll try and make sense of what you've said above and see if I understand both the situation and the rules correctly:

(1) "The call by Player A was 'I didn't call that shot so I guess its it's your turn.' No foul was declared."

IMHO, Player A claims that he illegally pocketed a ball by declaring, "I didn't call that shot." Which to me is a clearly claiming a foul (i.e., violation of the rules) occurred especially since Player A also demanded loss-of-inning as a result of his foul -- after all, by definition, we are playing call shot!

But, for sake of discussion, assume that no foul was declared and, as a result, the play should have continued as if no foul had occurred (by Player A). Therefore, Player A should have continued shooting. Since Player A (incorrectly) demanded that Player B shoot, it should be either replay the game or loss of game for Player A (due to unsportsmanlike conduct for delaying the call until he saw he had no shot and then bullying Player B into shooting by spouting incorrect rule interpretations in an attempt to manipulate the rules).

It's fine to nitpick and live by the rules, but you also better be prepared to suck it up and die by the rules if your B.S. is protested and the ruling goes against you.


(2) "A foul would have resulted in BIH." -- I don't buy it.

If the foul would have resulted in BIH, please point out the rule # that applies.

If Player A said he didn't call the shot, then as far as I can determine it's a legal hit but loss-of-turn (not BIH) for making the ball in an uncalled pocket.

In particular, p. 43 under applied rulings gives a definition of "Illegally Pocketed Ball" (and this seems to be the case to me): "Be careful not to confuse the relation of the term "illegally pocked" to the act of committing a foul. By definition, a ball pocketed on a foul is illegally pocketed. However, whether the act of illegally pocketing a ball, in and of itself, causes a foul is dependent on the specific game rules."

8-Ball Rule 2.7 -- Continuing Play: "... When it is your inning, you continue to shoot as long as you legally pocket a ball on each shot. ... Your inning ends if you do not legally pocket a ball."

It seems to me that Rule 2.7 indicates that the only penalty for illegally pocketing a ball is "end of inning" or in other words "loss of turn". Therefore, no BIH. (If BIH, then we are playing the game wrong in our league.)

 

[tatcat2000]

Quickie official BCAPL response

...Hope the BCA reads this and considers it!:idea2:

If you mean the BCAPL, rest assured that the BCAPL is reading this and considering it. (The BCA has absolutely nothing to do with it and has no interest in it whatsoever - see disclaimers for details.)

I simply do not have time right now for a response long enough to adequately address all of the details - sorry. I'm so snowed under (no pun intended) with job/state and nationals preps/weather delays that I just can't take the time at the moment. If I get cut out of work Wednesday by the next snow I can get to it then, otherwise it will have to wait until this weekend.

For now I can say that Woody is the closest to the mark with post 60, argument for Player B. In the real world, UC based on the delayed refusal to shoot is a completely defensible and reasonable call, and requiring Player A to shoot again is, on its face and mitigating factors aside, a completely defensible and reasonable action by an official. (No need to give Player B an option.)

Woody is also on the mark with post 69, specifically in his noting that no BIH "foul" ever occured based on the table action, a point which many seem to be missing.

The table action aside, all who note that the ensuing UC would be punishible separately and maybe more severely are likely close to the mark. That, however, is an entirely separate issue.

In any event, rest assured the matter of the action on the table will be considered by the BCAPL National Office during the preparation for the next issue of the BCAPL book. I know that, because I have already added it to the agenda.

P.S. - OUSooner - you are quoting obsolete rules in post 59. Please lose that link forever. I hope I can get you to do it - I damn sure can't seem to be able to get the Billiard Congress of America to do anything about it. It lives on their server and has been obsolete for more than three years...:slap:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmmm

I've done it a few times, not always successfully. It has gotten a reaction of surprise, but no arguments. I have heard voices say "if you're gonna give up ball-in-hand, why not?" so I'm reasonably sure no one was upset.

Absolutley, done it a 1000 times at least. If I can't win the game, I'm going to try to prevet the other guy from winning and hope he makes a mistake sooner or later. But the other player knows what I"m doing, and I'm handing him the ball for BIH because sometimes guys forget that hitting the 8 first is still BIH. I"m not shooting then surveying the lay of the land and then sticking the next shot on him. I"m giving him BIH for heavens sake. Same rule is used a lot in One Pocket, though you don't give BIH, you do lose a ball for the intentional table foul.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

If you mean the BCAPL, rest assured that the BCAPL is reading this and considering it. (The BCA has absolutely nothing to do with it and has no interest in it whatsoever - see disclaimers for details.)

I simply do not have time right now for a response long enough to adequately address all of the details - sorry. I'm so snowed under (no pun intended) with job/state and nationals preps/weather delays that I just can't take the time at the moment. If I get cut out of work Wednesday by the next snow I can get to it then, otherwise it will have to wait until this weekend.

For now I can say that Woody is the closest to the mark with post 61, argument for Player B. In the real world, UC based on the delayed refusal to shoot is a completely defensible and reasonable call, and requiring Player A to shoot again is, on its face and mitigating factors aside, a completely defensible and reasonable action by an official. (No need to give Player B an option.)

Woody is also on the mark with post 70, specifically in his noting that no BIH "foul" ever occured based on the table action, a point which many seem to be missing.

The table action aside, all who note that the ensuing UC would be punishible separately and maybe more severely are likely close to the mark. That, however, is an entirely separate issue.

In any event, rest assured the matter of the action on the table will be considered by the BCAPL National Office during the preparation for the next issue of the BCAPL book. I know that, because I have already added it to the agenda.

P.S. - OUSooner - you are quoting obsolete rules in post 60. Please lose that link forever. I hope I can get you to do it - I damn sure can't seem to be able to get the Billiard Congress of America to do anything about it. It lives on their server and has been obsolete for more than three years...:slap:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

OK, this is a long but good post. So I will take the time to summarize it for our readers that are in a hurry.

Player A is a douche and must shoot again.

 

[Total_Chaos13]

Really? ... a 6 year probation for cussing. Where did you pull that number from? Why not 6 years and 3 days?

You probably want to cut of someones feet off for Jay walking too huh?

If you ran a league with an iron fist like that, you wouldn't have a league.

Opps my bad that was suppose to be 6 months.

 

[justadub]

If you mean the BCAPL, rest assured that the BCAPL is reading this and considering it. (The BCA has absolutely nothing to do with it and has no interest in it whatsoever - see disclaimers for details.)

*** edited for the sake of scrolling ***

In any event, rest assured the matter of the action on the table will be considered by the BCAPL National Office during the preparation for the next issue of the BCAPL book. I know that, because I have already added it to the agenda.

P.S. - OUSooner - you are quoting obsolete rules in post 60. Please lose that link forever. I hope I can get you to do it - I damn sure can't seem to be able to get the Billiard Congress of America to do anything about it. It lives on their server and has been obsolete for more than three years...:slap:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
[/SIZE]

Thank you for taking the time to make as official a response as is possible.

And player A is still in the wrong, no matter which interpretation is used.

 

[chefjeff]

I was playing a person ball in hand 8 ball and they had no advantageous shots. So the walks up to 2 of his objects balls that are tied up to one another and hits them with the cue stick. The cue ball is 3 feet up table. I look at him and he calls "foul" on himself. I told him that wasn't right and it should be a forfeit really. I take BIH and runout. The next game he does it again, I want to break him in half. This is more than against the rules, it's against the spirit of the game. I tell the tournament director it should be loss of game, since this is the second time he pulled it. Everybody there knows it is completely changing the table layout.

The TD tells me BIH again and I proceed to win anyway. What some people won't do to win at all costs. These types always motivate me to play my best.

That shot needs to be one of the 99 critical shots. lol It takes a good eye to make it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

I Agree... But I think a new rule needs to be implamented that would solve this and other similar isssues..

A player shouldnt be allowed to call FOUL on him/her self, It should be up to the opponent to do so... Out of good sportsmanship a player can inform his/her opponent that a foul was commited, but it is up to the opponent to take action to the foul.

This will fix the problem - Hope the BCA reads this and considers it!:idea2:

I like it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Haha, I would wait until he had one or two balls on the table and it was my shot ... grab all my balls by hand and make a cage around his balls after I moved them to the rail ... making a nice semi circle by hand completely safing him... then look him in the eye and say "Oops, guess I miscued too, BIH for you now, a-hole."

My friend Jerome, has a good one for the "move it back where it was" rule. He takes the ball that was accidently moved and puts it in his car's glove compartment and then says to his opponent, "there you go."

Every rule has a bend in it, I suppose.

Jeff Livingston

 

[ykndoit]

Two years ago at a state tournament we had this happen twice in the same day. Different outcome each time.

Why you ask? The referees were different'. Both referees ask the intent of the shooter, then each referee took it upon him self to decide if the intent was legitament. And after they did that, they ruled thier decision.
I thought it was a crock of sh!t that they both ruled differently but interpretation has to be used sometimes.

What I got out of it is that if your opponent doesn't announce safe, then you can make them continue to shoot as the rules states: "Safeties MUST be CALLED BEFORE the SHOT!" It doesn't state the degree of difficulty. So, you can bend the rules that way too.......

So in the origional post, the person that shot the bank and locked himself on the 8 would have to continue to shoot because he didn't announce a safe. And hypothetically speaking, if he made the bank and didn't lock himself on the 8, the opponent would be allowed to shoot because the shooter didn't call the bank.

P.S. - OUSooner - you are quoting obsolete rules in post 60. Please lose that link forever. I hope I can get you to do it - I damn sure can't seem to be able to get the Billiard Congress of America to do anything about it. It lives on their server and has been obsolete for more than three years...:slap:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

The same 'obsolete' safety rule he is quoting is also in http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

So you're trying to get them to erase the obsolete link AND change the rule in the 'Officail Rules of the BCA Pool League'?

 

[Lance Link]

Unfortunately, this seems to be one of those situations that 'has to happen' instead of a governing body already having a specific rule in place for it.

That being said...

Player A pulled a bulls*** move. But the game has already been played, and scored accordingly.

If I were in the LO's place ?

The following week's notes would have a considerable section devoted to 'unsportsmanlike conduct', including but not limited to the afforementioned situation, as well as 'sharking', and the leagues' by-laws pertaining to the above.
Penalties for violating the above will result in disciplinary action for the individual/team up to and including forfeiture of league participation, and/or forfeiture of any prize monies due to the above.

Regardless of which national organization you 'play for', pool leagues are designed to be fun. Moves like this take the fun aspect out of it.

 

[WoodyJ]

... Player A pulled a bulls*** move. But the game has already been played, and scored accordingly.

Not necessarily. Kinda sounds like the LO hasn't made a final ruling yet.

In our home-grown bar league if there is a situation like this and the game is played out under protest, the rules are clear:

If Player B would have won, end of protest. Non issue. Move along.

If Player A won (i.e., this case), the league officers would meet and interview the people involved and make a final decision as to the outcome.