What to look at

[justadub]

I do hope you were doing this during practice, and not when you were playing. You must work on these things during focused practice sessions. Practice is the time to work on fixing problems.
When you play, you can not practice.

If you chase two rabbits, they will both get away!

Steve

Or two kids... I have experience in chasing two kids. Of course now they're both so big I don't know what I'd do if I did catch them!

I get what your saying, and believe you. As you understand, getting some dedicated "practice" time can be difficult if one doesn't have their own table at home. So yes, I'm guilty of trying to work on things while playing, many times. Last night was no exception.

What I do in that instance is to try and get little pockets of time to work on stuff when my opponent is off to get a drink, or go to the bathroom, or between games.

I am trying to block out some real "practice" time, which is difficult with work, family and friends at the pool room. And with only 5 tables at the pool room, if people wanna play, we kind of gotta play. (It's not a pay-by-the-hour deal at our club. It's .25 per game. So we really can't just commandeer a table for solo practice if there are people who want to play. Still, there are some quieter times when I can get some alone time to do some work, it's just arranging for it that is the trick.)

I do thank you, Steve, and everyone else for all the helpful suggestions. I'm not ignoring them - more accurately I'm almost on overload! In a good way. I love the learning, and the challenge. The help here is most appreciated.

 

[Scott Lee]

justadub...I understand your situation. We just want you to understand that 1) you can't play and learn at the same time...just the same as 2) you can't think and shoot at the same time (think first, standind up; no thinking once you're down on the table). Best of luck, and maybe I'll still make it up to Maine one of these days! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

So yes, I'm guilty of trying to work on things while playing, many times. Last night was no exception.

 

[justadub]

justadub...I understand your situation. We just want you to understand that 1) you can't play and learn at the same time...just the same as 2) you can't think and shoot at the same time (think first, standind up; no thinking once you're down on the table). Best of luck, and maybe I'll still make it up to Maine one of these days! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I assume you like lobster?

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

.

Now the focus is on what we are trying to hit, the target, also knows as the object ball.

Sorry, i respectfully disagree.

The target is NOT the OB. The target is the exact contact point on the CB where you want the tip to strike the CB. It makes no sense to look at anything else. Period. That OB aint going anywhere and the CB is. so focus on delivering that tip to the exact contact point on the CB.

Mike

 

[poolfire]

Kind of....

Matt...When you throw a dart, do you look at the dart...or the dartboard? Your cue goes where your eyes go.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Kinda like golf. I always look at the fairway when I'm teeing off. Maybe that is why noone likes to play with me. 

 

[randyg]

Sorry, i respectfully disagree.

The target is NOT the OB. The target is the exact contact point on the CB where you want the tip to strike the CB. It makes no sense to look at anything else. Period. That OB aint going anywhere and the CB is. so focus on delivering that tip to the exact contact point on the CB.

Mike

Sorry Mike, I respectfully disagree.
randyg

 

[pooltchr]

Mike, I think you will find most instructors, and most good players, will disagree.
Some, respectfully...some maybe not so much.
I'm fully in agreement with Randy and Scott on this one.

Steve

 

[Mark Avlon]

The target is NOT the OB. The target is the exact contact point on the CB where you want the tip to strike the CB. It makes no sense to look at anything else. Period. That OB aint going anywhere and the CB is. so focus on delivering that tip to the exact contact point on the CB.

Mike,

I'd like to understand your reasoning as to why looking at the cue ball is beneficial because it's the ball that's going somewhere. Also clarify if you mean to look at the contact patch on the cue ball, or the spot on the cue ball that the axis if the cue is pointing at. They differ as the cue is farther from center. It might help if you explain your pre-shot routine - what you look at, when do you look at it, and why.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. In an earlier post, I said you can look at anything you want, or close your eyes, as long as you're properly aligned and have a straight stroke. You don't even have to do practice strokes if you can do these two things accurately. I just want to understand why you feel so strongly that looking at the cue ball is the best way.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

Sorry, i respectfully disagree.

The target is NOT the OB. The target is the exact contact point on the CB where you want the tip to strike the CB. It makes no sense to look at anything else. Period. That OB aint going anywhere and the CB is. so focus on delivering that tip to the exact contact point on the CB.

Mike

Mike, look at it from another perspective. Using a gun analogy, the cue ball is the "bullet" and thus the OB is in fact the target. The practice strokes have already trained you to hit the CB in the exact spot. That is why you can't take practice strokes for granted, they do have a very important function, and that is to zero in and hit your spot. Once you've done that you can lift your eyes to your real target....you have to hit the target correctly to 1) make the ball 2) hit the OB in the right spot to get the appropriate position with the cue ball.

If you were to throw a baseball, would you look at the baseball, or look at the glove? There is a reason catchers set up on the outside corner. He is not hoping he throws it there, the catcher is insisting he throw it there, and he can only do that by providing an adequate target for the pitcher to lock his eyes on, and thus his hands will follow his eyes. And if his mechanics are good, he will hit his target.

Ever drive down the street, see a pretty girl walking on the sidewalk, and take a long, glancing look, and suddenly you begin to steer in the same direction as your "glance". There really is a logical reason why....

RJ

 

[matthias1988]

hello all, thank you for all the feedback and i took all of it in consideration.

I did an experiment with nine ball. I racked up 10 games. In those ten games I played 5 solely looking at the cue ball last and 5 looking at the object ball last.

I can say that basic shot making there is little to no difference. I feel like my shot making ability did not improve nor worsen either way. This is my experience with it, and it might be different in other cases.

What I did notice is I played better speed control with looking at the OB. Which left be better for the next shot. Not extremely better but enough where it would make a difference in my overall game.

I have, in my mind, a very consistent stroke and I believe that my practice strokes is a mini practice for that specific shot. Not for speed but for the contact on the cue. As long as I took my time with my practice strokes to train my muscles to hit the spot... i would hit that spot...

My belief still stands on basic shot making that as long as you line your self up and you have a consistent stroke you don't need to look at any ball to make it... and looking at the ball wont necessarily help you make the ball... don't get me wrong a new player will have an advantage at looking at the OB to make it...

All that being said I am starting to look at the OB last on the sole purpose of position play. This is my experiment some else try it and give your opinion.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Ever drive down the street, see a pretty girl walking on the sidewalk, and take a long, glancing look, and suddenly you begin to steer in the same direction as your "glance". There really is a logical reason why....

RJ

It's because you're hands tend to want to go where you're eyes are looking.

With respect to the analogies posted, DCP is right. The target MAY be the object ball, but you have to hit the cue ball first. So the golf ball is the cue ball. The Dart is the cue, the baseball is also the cue. Anything you hold in you're hand will be the cue. Which is why these analogies don't work at all. Pool is fairly unique in that it has three targets, The spot on the cb you want to hit, the contact point on the object ball and the pocket.

But I agree that the object ball should be focused on last. Logically it would seem that focusing on the cue ball should be the way to go, but looking at the OB last yields the best results.

In Snooker some instructors teach that you can look at the CB during the back swing and focus on the OB during the follow through. I disagree with this, I think you get the best results when you have a consistent focus through the entirety of your final stroke.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Mike,

I'd like to understand your reasoning as to why looking at the cue ball is beneficial because it's the ball that's going somewhere. Also clarify if you mean to look at the contact patch on the cue ball, or the spot on the cue ball that the axis if the cue is pointing at.

I just want to understand why you feel so strongly that looking at the cue ball is the best way.

Its that Spockian logic of mine. The OB is stationary, its not moving, you dont have to worry about it. What you have to worry about is delivering the cue tip to the exact aim point on the CB. The only moving part is the cue and/or tip, you have to worry about where its going and nothing else. To me this is an absolute no-brainer. if you dont deliver the tip to the exact spot on the CB you will miss the shot - unless its a duck or close to it.

I guess i must clarify why i feel so strongly. Its because CB last works for me and OB doesnt. i have tried looking at the OB last a million times and it doesnt work for me. Simple logic tells me its not the wright way - at least for me. If OB last works for some people then by all means they should continue down that path.

Somebody said earlier in this thread that the "Cue goes where the eyes go" and i couldnt agree more. The eyes should be focused on the contact point of the CB and thats where you want the tip to go.

Somebody said if you look at a girl walking down the street you will wreck your car as it sort of "goes toward her" and another instructor told me "if you are riding a motorcycle down the middle of the road and you look over at the ditch, the motorcycle will go into the ditch."

I dont buy either analogy. I've ridden motorcycles, mine would continue to go straight down the road. and my car wouldnt go in the direction of the girl either. If people dont have any better hand/eye/head coordination than that there must be something wrong with them.

Mike

 

[pooltchr]

Of all those who responded to this thread, only a couple seem to think eyes on the CB is the best way to shoot. The great majority of responders, including at least 4 professional instructors, think your eyes should be on the aim point of the target when you are on the final stroke.

As always, individuals are free to do as they please. But if you are looking for answers, it would seem they are somewhat obvious.

Steve

 

[Scott Lee]

Steve...You should know by now, that Mike is forever looking for the 'magic bullit'. We know there isn't one. Nuff said...


Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Of all those who responded to this thread, only a couple seem to think eyes on the CB is the best way to shoot. The great majority of responders, including at least 4 professional instructors, think your eyes should be on the aim point of the target when you are on the final stroke.

As always, individuals are free to do as they please. But if you are looking for answers, it would seem they are somewhat obvious.

Steve

 

[justadub]

Of all those who responded to this thread, only a couple seem to think eyes on the CB is the best way to shoot. The great majority of responders, including at least 4 professional instructors, think your eyes should be on the aim point of the target when you are on the final stroke.

As always, individuals are free to do as they please. But if you are looking for answers, it would seem they are somewhat obvious.

Steve

I'll readily admit that I started down that path because of a similar thought process as Mike. I rationalized it by thinking that I have to look at what I'm hitting, before worrying about where it was going. A golf/baseball background, I'm afraid.

Now, having listened to those who know more about this stuff than me, I'm relearning the process. And I'm finding that I'm getting better results on almost every type of shot. (The only shot that CB-first does as well is a straight in shot, and we should be able to put those in eyes closed, once aligned and set up.)

The key missing ingredient in your process, Mike, is that once you've set up your shot and put your bridge hand in place, the cue should hit the CB where you intend it to. IF you have a strong steady bridge, set up properly. The cue should still go where you had it going in your practice routine.

EVERYTHING works better when you believe it will work. If you go to the table and are quite sure that anything our instructors here are telling you is wrong, well guess what? That's how it's gonna work out. Just believing in and of itself isn't gonna get it done, but you'd better believe it will work if you're gonna try to learn anything. Else why bother?

Off my soapbox. Can't wait to get to the pool room and play tonight! Thanks again, Steve, Scott, Randy, Mark, Ingo and anyone else I've forgotten. I check in to this section of AZB often, to see what else you have to teach me on a given day!

 

[randyg]

Maybe this might help????

1. Location of cue stick.....what you use to aim.
2. Location of cue ball.......what you aim through.
3. Location of Object ball...what you aim at.

Looking at the cue ball last could produce a poke stroke!

randyg

 

[pooltchr]

Maybe this might help????

1. Location of cue stick.....what you use to aim.
2. Location of cue ball.......what you aim through.
3. Location of Object ball...what you aim at.

Looking at the cue ball last could produce a poke stroke!

randyg

Short, sweet and right to the point! I like it! :thumbup:

Steve

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

3. Location of Object ball...what you aim at.

Looking at the cue ball last could produce a poke stroke!

randyg

I respectfully disagree. What you aim at is the exact spot on the CB you want your tip to contact.

Why would this produce a poke stroke?

And am i correct in my understanding that what you posters/instructors are talking about when you say OB last is that its SET-PAUSE-FINISH and between Pause and Finish is when you shift your eyes from the CB to the OB. correct?

Mike

 

[Mark Avlon]

Its that Spockian logic of mine. The OB is stationary, its not moving, you dont have to worry about it. What you have to worry about is delivering the cue tip to the exact aim point on the CB. The only moving part is the cue and/or tip, you have to worry about where its going and nothing else. To me this is an absolute no-brainer. if you dont deliver the tip to the exact spot on the CB you will miss the shot - unless its a duck or close to it.

Your bridge, the target on the cue ball, and the distant target that you aim you cue at, are all on the same line. If you can throw accurately to the distant target, aren't you also throwing accurately to the target on the cue ball?

I guess i must clarify why i feel so strongly. Its because CB last works for me and OB doesnt. i have tried looking at the OB last a million times and it doesnt work for me. Simple logic tells me its not the wright way - at least for me. If OB last works for some people then by all means they should continue down that path.

It's good to read you're not as rigid as you earlier post implied.

Somebody said earlier in this thread that the "Cue goes where the eyes go" and i couldnt agree more. The eyes should be focused on the contact point of the CB and thats where you want the tip to go.

Somebody said if you look at a girl walking down the street you will wreck your car as it sort of "goes toward her" and another instructor told me "if you are riding a motorcycle down the middle of the road and you look over at the ditch, the motorcycle will go into the ditch."

I dont buy either analogy. I've ridden motorcycles, mine would continue to go straight down the road. and my car wouldnt go in the direction of the girl either. If people dont have any better hand/eye/head coordination than that there must be something wrong with them.

I don't buy the analogies either and take a different perspective on it. Let's throw to what we are looking at.

Our mind loses the target when we don't look at, or think about something else. How can we accurately hit something when we aren't sure of where it is? We usually think about what we are looking at, so let's keep the target clear in our mind by looking at it. We can then use our mind to prepare for and deliver an accurate stroke to that target.

Looking on the cue ball can cause our mind to lose the distant target. Because of the short distance to the cue ball, we can be off our cue ball target slightly, and off our distant target significantly, and not realize it. How much would the tip be offset from its contact point on the cue ball to miss a distant target 75" away by 1/4"? By looking at the distant target, even small errors become noticeable.

Looking at the distant target also gives you a target to follow through to, which also promotes a straight and accurate stroke. When looking at the cue ball, where do you follow through to? Does your mind know where to finish your stroke?

If looking at the cue ball is working for you, great. As others have noted, looking at the distant target works well for the vast majority of others. The reason it does is that it promotes accuracy in our mind and stroke.

 

[pooltchr]

And am i correct in my understanding that what you posters/instructors are talking about when you say OB last is that its SET-PAUSE-FINISH and between Pause and Finish is when you shift your eyes from the CB to the OB. correct?

Mike

No, that is not correct. Once you are in the set position, you have already established the exact contact point on the cue ball. So unless you have flaws in your stroke, the tip will make contact at that spot when the cue moves through the space occupied by the cue ball on your way to your finish position.

So, since we know where the tip is going to make contact, there is no need to look at the CB any longer. You can lock your eyes in on your target before you begin the final backstroke, or you can wait until you reach the Pause position. However, by waiting, you probably need a longer pause to give your eyes time to lock in on your target. Most players prefer to make the final eye shift at Set.

Are you sure you had lessons with Scott? I would think he would have made sure you understood that before he ever moved on to anything else. Or perhaps it was something you just didn't feel was all that important?

Steve