Mr. Mark Griffin & Mr. Bill Stork

[justnum]

Since I was mentioned here, let me clarify. The thread was about the non-transparency of the BCA. It had nothing to do with MG or JL. Do not twist the intent. MG acted with honor throughout. The voting and turning the BCA into a strict trade organization is what I was referring to.

As to this situation...business is not a democracy. Mr. McConnell apparently pushed too many buttons too often. The BCAPL and the LO have every right. Their leagues, their rules.

I don't believe that Mr. McConnell is going to get the "up in arms" response that he wants from the people on AZ.

I would suggest to Mr. McConnell that he accept the sanctions, contact the BCAPL during the summer and use some forethought and diplomacy with the BCAPL and the LO.

As a former League Operator, Room Owner, MNBCA Board Member, MNACS Board Member, ACS National Board Member, BCA Referee, ACS Referee, Casino Tournament Promoter/Director AND Pool Player, if Mr. McConnell had come to me to suggest a change in rules, which I denied, and then he went about being a disruptive force to the league, I also would tell him to take a hike. Yes, whining and crying about the rules can be disruptive and that is all I've heard.

Leagues, for the most part are a night out playing pool and having a good time. If there is a complainer in the crowd that is working against the LO, nobody needs that or wants that.

Just don't play if it's so bad...............Oh, you can't.

I agree the thread was about the transparency of the BCA. The post I cited from the thread is about the acquisition of the BCAPL and the actions of John Lewis after Mark Griffin took control.

It is obvious that can people be kicked out of a league for a good reason. Earl Strickland was kicked out of a tournament just recently.

Mr. McConnell didn't have a situation with you this is what happen between him and people at the BCAPL. McConnell posted his info and MG is a poster as well.

The information available are MG's posts. Do the posts suggests someone that would kick someone out of the league for making a requests? Some of MGs posts are him providing answers to unusual situations like the email spam or his hesitation on eliminating confusion about what happen to JL during the BCAPL transition period.

The fact is MG took control of BCAPL and an internal officer JL left when MG took over and formed a new organization. This is just one instance of MG's action causing someone else to withdraw or be withdrawn from an organization.

People leave organizations all the time. Sometimes by choice and other times by force. It is difficult to determine what exactly happen in the case of McConnell because of the limiting amount of information available.

I am not interested in writing off this situation as a clear case of a violation, but if it is then some of the league players that McConnell contacted would say they warned him or have complained about him behind his back. McConnell didn't mentioned his was warned. That left relating MGs posts or posts about MG like the one above to what happen as the only available tool for investigation.

What specifically about this discussion are you having a hard time with? If it is the possibility that someone else posted something questioning MG's actions as an organizational leader, then go look up the post, someone wrote it.

Is his question valid? Yes and it is related to McConnell situation because it is another instance when MGs actions may or may not have pushed someone out of an organization.

I am not saying the information on the threads are reliable but they were stated. And since McConnell is posting on the internet it seems he is interested in developing a discussion on the topic as opposed to a open and shut case. What contributions to the discussion were you interested in making?

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

The BCA has nothing to do with this. The OP was banned from the BCAPL over a rule discrepancy but has yet to describe what rule he thinks should change.

I have nothing to do with the BCA in anyway, shape or form. Why you would imply anything of such nature, baffles me. So what does your above statement have anything to do with the rule situation between the OP and the BCAPL?

Jason;

I believe justadub was simply underscoring, for the OP, the fact that BCA and BCAPL are seperate entities. It seems he was adding on to your thought, not answering you.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[justnum]

justnum... Mark is very open and honest about what happened, with the league sale, because all of it was already on record in BCA board meeting minutes. I don't have to defend Mark's integrity in this industry. It speaks for itself.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I am not saying who or what Mark is. MG can do and be whatever he wants as owner of BCAPL. I am not asking you to defend who he is.

I am interested in learning about the situation McConnell had endured and if there were clear signs that McConnell was doing something questionable like warnings. As for the MG posts or posts about MG those are character testimonies just like yours take the good with the bad and let readers decide for themselves.

A waste of time is for people to say McConnell "screwed up" end of story. Building facts and relating information together helps put a context to the characters MG and McConnell. Sometimes stories are biased and I am just using the posts available to create a clear cut character that is or is not in line with what happen.

 

[MOJOE]

It is clear the BCAPL is not interested in customer service issues. Happens with startups they want new people and lose the loyal brand customers.

Yeah, it's clear as mud..

BCAPL is very customer service oriented and they have done a great job with the leagues IMHO..

Look's like the OP needs to look for sympathy elsewhere.. Besides one poster, he's on his boat all by himself..

 

[jason]

The rule change was clearly spelled out in at least two places in the thread.

I stand corrected. You did mention the call 9 ball in your original post.

I was more focused, as I was weeding through all the gibberish and poor grammar, to find the main point of your post. I guess that was it, huh?

So, you accuse Mr. Griffin and Stock of being sneaky, underhanded, unprofessional, and engaging in illegal activity involving more turpitude or conduct dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation?

All over a rule to call the 9 ball or not? Please find another activity.

 

[justadub]

Jason;

I believe justadub was simply underscoring, for the OP, the fact that BCA and BCAPL are seperate entities. It seems he was adding on to your thought, not answering you.

Best,
Brian kc

This is indeed the case.

Not anything directed at you Jason.

 

[jason]

Jason;

I believe justadub was simply underscoring, for the OP, the fact that BCA and BCAPL are seperate entities. It seems he was adding on to your thought, not answering you.

Best,
Brian kc

When quoted, I thought he was answering me. As with a lot of this thread...I'm a little confused!

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

This is not a democracy, it is a business. In business, the owner is the dictator. In this case, dictating the rules.

That precious distinction seems to get confused lately, what with all the anti-whatever "laws" being forced upon private busineses. (btw, as was said long ago, anti-smoking nazis can't use jason's rational argument here, as they've dismissed it to play smoke free...unintended consequences are real and inevitable)

Jeff Livingston

 

[joelpope]

you sound like a real jerk....

no one is forcing you to play, just go away

 

[justnum]

This thread is turning into a MG and what I think he has done thread.

Just to keep it focused somebody got kicked out of the league, wants to understand why. I suggested that it is MG's character to resolve conflict by withdrawing people from the conflict. The case I cited was John Lewis' withdrawal from the BCAPL during the transitional phase to ownership by MG as evidence for past behavior that relates to the action against McConnell.

Nobody is asking for evidence or support of who and what MG has done for the billiards industry. McConnell is interested in learning why he was forced out of the league and what justified that action.

I asked if he had warnings or complaints from other players and he said he did not.

On posts in other threads people did note that MG has taken questionable actions before, specifically his solution to the spamming through his league email system and the unknown conditions explaining why John Lewis decided to leave BCAPL to start his own league.

In conclusion the current analysis reveals that MG has a lot of support based on what he has done and is doing. And there are a few incidents where his actions have been questioned and sometimes he provided answers and other times he did not.

To the OP McConnell, I doubt you will get answers to the questions you currently have about the situation. As it is MG can entertain the customers that are happy with the service as it is and your case may not be worth the time or effort or cost.

 

[justadub]

I'm pretty sure if the OP really "wanted an answer", he could get one. Mark's number is posted here regularly. The OP could simply call him and speak to him one on one.

Instead, the OP would rather make a big production out of whatever it is that he feels slighted about, and has decided to air it publicly here.

It is doubtful that the OP will get any "answers" with this method. And I equally doubt that is the premise of the post in the first place.

 

[justnum]

I'm pretty sure if the OP really "wanted an answer", he could get one. Mark's number is posted here regularly. The OP could simply call him and speak to him one on one.

Instead, the OP would rather make a big production out of whatever it is that he feels slighted about, and has decided to air it publicly here.

It is doubtful that the OP will get any "answers" with this method. And I equally doubt that is the premise of the post in the first place.

His first post reveals an email message saying that BCAPL will no longer attempt to explain the policy to him. And the OP says this is his only place to get an answer from MG. I know I am not MG but I try to help MG by giving this guy an answer.

The answer was one upset customer is not worth the time, effort or money when new customers are regularly showing up. Why bother working to keep one when new ones sign up as it is?

 

[jason]

:deadhorse:

His first post reveals an email message saying that BCAPL will no longer attempt to explain the policy to him. And the OP says this is his only place to get an answer from MG. I know I am not MG but I try to help MG by giving this guy an answer.

The answer was one upset customer is not worth the time, effort or money when new customers are regularly showing up. Why bother working to keep one when new ones sign up as it is?

You are insinuating MG gave little or no effort.

Reminds me of an old joke: What do ya' tell a <INSERT THICK HEADED PERSON HERE> with 2 black eyes? Nothing you haven't already told 'em twice!

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

 

[justnum]

:deadhorse:

You are insinuating MG gave little or no effort.

Reminds me of an old joke: What do ya' tell a <INSERT THICK HEADED PERSON HERE> with 2 black eyes? Nothing you haven't already told 'em twice!

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

I admit that MG stated in the email given by the OP that he did explain to McConnell the reason for being banned. But McConnell was not satisfied with that explanation so I am giving him a new explanation otherwise McConnell will just keep provoking for one.

McConnell wasn't exactly interested in hearing all the support MG has. He wanted a concise explanation, I felt I had one and I gave it to him.

Now I wait to see McConnell respond.

Rather than bash McConnell or MG, I have readers a history of behavior and a conclusion to explain what happen to McConnell. Most people ignore the issue and talk about unrelated details about MGs reputation but that doesn't address the issue McConnell has. The issue was an explanation for his ejection.

If you have an alternative explanation other than his disruptive behavior post it.

 

[jason]

If you have an alternative explanation other than his disruptive behavior post it.

I do not have an alternative explanation. But, from tone and immaturity of OPs posts, I don't think I need one. It doesn't look like Mark feels he needs to provide one either.

 

[saddlebow]

level playing field

I don't know the specifics of the OP's situation, other than wanting to make a change to the published rules of the BCAPL, so no comments about the personality/personal issues. I believe that one of the basic concepts of the BCAPL is to create a level playing field for every player, so that the same rules apply to every match every week, every tournament, all the way through to the nationals. It's really a way to protect players from the "sorry, but that's the way we do it here" response to a claimed violation of a local variation that's not part of the published rules. BCAPL has worked long and hard to create those standardized rules, so that the vitriolic disputes about rules that we see raised on AZB from time to time are not a regular part of their events. [run a search on "rules dispute" and have fun reading.] Nice to know that everyone playing their way into the nationals has done so with the exact same rules all year. And better to see that there's a national effort by BCAPL to enforce their vision of how to make the player's ability the only variable in a match. Not there yet, but this is a great place to start. Sorry if you don't like special sauce on your Big Mac, but you'll get it the same way at every McDonald's in the world, and you'll play by the same rules in every single BCAPL event. I think that's what is behind this, and I think it's past time for standard published rules to be enforced to keep rules sharking out of the pool hall.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

His first post reveals an email message saying that BCAPL will no longer attempt to explain the policy to him. And the OP says this is his only place to get an answer from MG. I know I am not MG but I try to help MG by giving this guy an answer.

The answer was one upset customer is not worth the time, effort or money when new customers are regularly showing up. Why bother working to keep one when new ones sign up as it is?

The reason for the ban was clearly stated in the letter from BCAPL's Director of Referees, in the original post, where he said the op was banned for continued disruptive behavior, for interfering with a league, and for going as far as threatening legal action.

Seems very possible that the guy may have been a pain in the ass who, after being warned, chose not to let his proposed rule change alone.

Ultimately, they may have felt enough time had been spent on this.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[DGunter]

His first post reveals an email message saying that BCAPL will no longer attempt to explain the policy to him. And the OP says this is his only place to get an answer from MG. I know I am not MG but I try to help MG by giving this guy an answer.

The answer was one upset customer is not worth the time, effort or money when new customers are regularly showing up. Why bother working to keep one when new ones sign up as it is?

I don't know how anybody else feels, but you don't appear to be helping at all. Your "concise explanation" is nothing more than dredging up rumors of a totally unrelated situation. Given that you have admittedly had an issue with Mr. Griffin in the past, your participation here looks like a weak attempt at character assasination. A real "concise explanation" would be telling him that its not advisable to threaten a business with legal action so they have to change their rules to what you personally want. Just sayin...

 

[LeagueGuy]

As for the MG posts or posts about MG those are character testimonies just like yours take the good with the bad and let readers decide for themselves.QUOTE]

If you are going to use the forums as to the references regarding the charcter of Mark Griffin and Scott Lee I think it is pretty safe to say that they carry a lot of respect on this forum.

I think I will start a poll for the AZ users to tell us who they have more respect for Mark and Scott or Justnum and C Carl Mcconnell

Leagueguy

 

[justnum]

I do not have an alternative explanation. But, from tone and immaturity of OPs posts, I don't think I need one. It doesn't look like Mark feels he needs to provide one either.

To resolve the situation peacefully I am giving the guy an explanation so he does not feel like he was ill treated and understands why he was kicked out. Sometimes people hold grudges and to prevent that from happening I stepped in for MG to explain the McConnell that some troublemakers are just not worth it.

I won't provoke McConnell to do something he will regret by telling him about all the things MG accomplished or how McConnell is clearly in the wrong because those are not details important to McConnell. McConnell wants a better explanation than the one given to him about his disruption of the rules. Rather than push McConnell and force him to believe that he was wrong or foolish I gave him what he wanted, an explanation.

He gets what he asked for a better explanation. Other posts might give him something he didn't ask for.