PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions

[LAMas]

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.

Here's a wei example for you to explain. These are two shots from Stan's DVD. On mohrt's practice worksheet they are the 6th shot (the 1-ball shot into the upper right pocket with cue ball A) and the 25th shot (the 2-ball shot into the upper left pocket with cue ball B).

The DVD says to use the same alignment-menu choice for both shots -- CB center to OB left edge, secondary alignment point C, and pivot from left to right. The distance between the CB and OB is the same for both shots. The 1-ball shot is 0 degrees -- dead straight. The 2-ball shot is a cut of approximately 20 degrees. How is it possible that the same alignment for these two shots produces such a difference in hit on the two OB's?

CueTable Help

P.S. I posted this over 400 posts ago, and no one commented.

I will have to study this a bit more.

In reference to post 976.

AtLarge, Very good job once again with your work on CTE/PRO ONE. The 2 shots in question demonstrate quite well the visual nature of CTE/PRO ONE.

CTE/PRO ONE is a VISUAL SYSTEM.

If a player's eyes were positioned exactly the same for each shot, A and B, the results would be identical.

For the 1 ball shot, a player's body is behind the CB with the headed tilted to the right to see the visuals.

For the 2 ball shot, a player's body is clearly much more to the right of the cue ball than for the 1 ball.

The eyes are in different positions for each shot. The proper visuals are easily obtained for each shot. The table can dictate body and eye positioning and even the distance that eyes are from the CB. That is the nature of the rectanglular table.

Actually shot 2 could be played as a stop shot safety as I demoed on the DVD or possibly an iffy 4 rail bank. BUT, one must postion the eyes just as if they were shooting the 1 ball.


Just because a CB and an OB share a common distance and the same visuals does not mean the eyes will be postioned the same way for each shot. Perception is altered with varied eye positions. As I mentioned on the DVD the table will often dicate a player's ball address postion.

Very commendable work, AtLarge! The 2 shots you presented represent a great lesson in CTE/PRO ONE.

Stan

 

[Neil]

Yes, different cut angles are needed to "center pocket."



No. Fundamental flaw. The bottom edges of the 3-ball and 5-ball would not be the same distance from the rail. As the cut angle gets larger, the GB would be rotated more "down and left." So the bottom edge of the 3-ball is farther from the top rail than is the bottom edge of the 5-ball. You just don't see that due to the limited discrimination of the graphic.



Sure it's the same edge for the two shots, if the CB and OB are the same distance apart (as you have them). And if you move the two balls anywhere else on the table (but still the same distance apart), the CTEL to the left side of the OB is still in the same relative position, i.e., you see the same edge.

Set it up on a table and look at it.

 

[Neil]

1-ball:

Stan -- C/left (I'm sure he would say A/right is also a solution here)
Neil -- C/right or A/left
me -- C/left or A/right​

2-ball:

Stan -- C/left
Neil -- B/right
me -- C/right or B/left​

I think you may just have had a "mindo" on the 1-ball, but, in any event, it looks like the visuals can vary from person to person.

You are right on the 1 ball. What I put for the 2 ball works for me. But, I'm putting the ball in the side, you might be putting it in the corner.???

 

[AtLarge]

... Just because a CB and an OB share a common distance and the same visuals does not mean the eyes will be postioned the same way for each shot. ...

Thanks for your compliments, Stan. Perhaps the crux of the matter is contained in your sentence I quoted above. What is it, then, that guides the positioning of the eyes other than the CTEL and the secondary alignment line. I was under the impression that those two lines force an eye placement that "locks in" the two relevant edges of the CB and, therefore, control the pre-pivot cue alignment. The answer must have something to do with the actual pocket (target), right? Would you not call that something "visual intelligence" or "feel"?

 

[AtLarge]

You are right on the 1 ball. What I put for the 2 ball works for me. But, I'm putting the ball in the side, you might be putting it in the corner.???

You're putting the 2-ball in the side from CB position B?!?!?

 

[cookie man]

Yes, different cut angles are needed to "center pocket."
Sure it's the same edge for the two shots, if the CB and OB are the same distance apart (as you have them). And if you move the two balls anywhere else on the table (but still the same distance apart), the CTEL to the left side of the OB is still in the same relative position, i.e., you see the same edge.

Anytime an ob moves it creates a different ctel. You can still be looking at the same side of ob but the exact edge you use for the ctel will have changed.

 

[cookie man]

"something our eye/brain/subconscious unit is very, very good at doing based on the input it's being given"...

Gee, i wonder what that could be?

Why twist yourself into such logical pretzels trying to avoid the obvious? What's the advantage of denying that it's (cover your eyes if you don't want to hear this) feel?

Pj
chgo

boring.......

 

[LAMas]

Thanks for your compliments, Stan. Perhaps the crux of the matter is contained in your sentence I quoted above. What is it, then, that guides the positioning of the eyes other than the CTEL and the secondary alignment line. I was under the impression that those two lines force an eye placement that "locks in" the two relevant edges of the CB and, therefore, control the pre-pivot cue alignment. The answer must have something to do with the actual pocket (target), right? Would you not call that something "visual intelligence" or "feel"?

That's what I was wondering.
Is it that one can float between the CTE line and the secondary aim line to create the proper stance behind the CB - based on visuals stored in memory?

 

[Neil]

You're putting the 2-ball in the side from CB position B?!?!?

Few people shoot it that way, but it is the same angle as the corner. I shoot it in the side all the time. A lot of times it's good for position play, and it always makes your opponent a little scared.

 

[cookie man]

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.

Here's a wei example for you to explain. These are two shots from Stan's DVD. On mohrt's practice worksheet they are the 6th shot (the 1-ball shot into the upper right pocket with cue ball A) and the 25th shot (the 2-ball shot into the upper left pocket with cue ball B).

The DVD says to use the same alignment-menu choice for both shots -- CB center to OB left edge, secondary alignment point C, and pivot from left to right. The distance between the CB and OB is the same for both shots. The 1-ball shot is 0 degrees -- dead straight. The 2-ball shot is a cut of approximately 20 degrees. How is it possible that the same alignment for these two shots produces such a difference in hit on the two OB's?

CueTable Help

P.S. I posted this over 400 posts ago, and no one commented.

Can you put in cte lines for the 2 shots extended through the rails and we can discuss more after that. It should be obvious though that you can use the same alignment visuals and get different results.

 

[stan shuffett]

Thanks for your compliments, Stan. Perhaps the crux of the matter is contained in your sentence I quoted above. What is it, then, that guides the positioning of the eyes other than the CTEL and the secondary alignment line. I was under the impression that those two lines force an eye placement that "locks in" the two relevant edges of the CB and, therefore, control the pre-pivot cue alignment. The answer must have something to do with the actual pocket (target), right? Would you not call that something "visual intelligence" or "feel"?

I would call it experience. Experience is our major teacher. Any CB/OB ball relationship might result in a stop shot opportunity or a zero angle option.

For shot 2 and once again this is a great lesson. A zero angle option is available as well as the right cut to the corner with OBC used as aim points for both shots. Personally, I prefer OBA as the aim point for a zero angle shot but OBC is an option as well.

Stan

 

[cookie man]

Few people shoot it that way, but it is the same angle as the corner. I shoot it in the side all the time. A lot of times it's good for position play, and it always makes your opponent a little scared.

Neil, A qb goes with the one ball and B qb goes with the two ball, seperate shots almost straight in the corners.

 

[jsp]

The 9 and 10 are your two object balls. They are one ball width apart. The two cb's are one ball width apart also. Left cb for the 9, right cb for the 10.

You can see that they are in a straight line, parallel to the rails. The 3 and the 5 are the respective ghost balls for making the 9 and 10. Both shots require the same CTE alingment. Yet, they have to have different angles to make the ball. Each shot is a different angle, agreed? Now, look at the edges of the ghost balls. As you can see, they are also parallel to the rail, yet they produce different angles! Do the CTE, you will be lined right up on the ghost ball on each shot.

CueTable Help

This is incorrect, Neil. If 9 and 10 are supposed to be parallel to the rail, then 3 and 5 can't also be parallel to the rail. It's simple geometry.

You can even observe this in your very own diagram. You made 3 and 5 parallel to the rail, but 9 and 10 are not.

 

[LAMas]

Your'e right. The nine is closer to the rail.

 

[AtLarge]

Anytime an ob moves it creates a different ctel. You can still be looking at the same side of ob but the exact edge you use for the ctel will have changed.

Here's my concept of the CTEL.

By center of the CB I mean the center of the sphere; the core point that is equi-distant from all outer points on the ball. Right?

Now visualize a plane arising perpendicular from the table and passing through the center of the CB. Let the plane swing like a door around that pivot point of the center/core of the CB. Swing the plane out beyond the left edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the right toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the left side of that OB is in that plane.

Now swing the plane out beyond the right edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the left toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the right side of the OB is in that plane.

There is only one plane that just touches the right side of the OB and passes through the CB center, and there is only one plane that just touches the left side of the OB and passes through the CB center. The CTEL's are in those planes, not some plane touching different points on the OB.

You agree?

 

[AtLarge]

Your'e right. The nine is closer to the rail.

Perhaps so in the graphic (I can't really see it clearly), but his first statement was that the nine and ten should be the same distance from the rail. That puts the ghost balls at different distances from the rail.

 

[Neil]

Here's my concept of the CTEL.

By center of the CB I mean the center of the sphere; the core point that is equi-distant from all outer points on the ball. Right?

Now visualize a plane arising perpendicular from the table and passing through the center of the CB. Let the plane swing like a door around that pivot point of the center/core of the CB. Swing the plane out beyond the left edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the right toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the left side of that OB is in that plane.

Now swing the plane out beyond the right edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the left toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the right side of the OB is in that plane.

There is only one plane that just touches the right side of the OB and passes through the CB center, and there is only one plane that just touches the left side of the OB and passes through the CB center. The CTEL's are in those planes, not some plane touching different points on the OB.

You agree?

It's easier to find the center of the cb is you just look at the top of it. The highest point is always the center from your perspective to it.

 

[cookie man]

Here's my concept of the CTEL.

By center of the CB I mean the center of the sphere; the core point that is equi-distant from all outer points on the ball. Right?

Now visualize a plane arising perpendicular from the table and passing through the center of the CB. Let the plane swing like a door around that pivot point of the center/core of the CB. Swing the plane out beyond the left edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the right toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the left side of that OB is in that plane.

Now swing the plane out beyond the right edge of the OB. Now bring it back to the left toward the OB until it just bumps the OB. The CTEL to the right side of the OB is in that plane.

There is only one plane that just touches the right side of the OB and passes through the CB center, and there is only one plane that just touches the left side of the OB and passes through the CB center. The CTEL's are in those planes, not some plane touching different points on the OB.

You agree?

I understand what your trying to say. Take your 2 shots you diagrammed earlier. Use Stans A reference line for both as he says, can you see that the ctel goes through different points for both shots? You should use the outermost edge in relation to the pocket for the ctel visual.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would call it experience. Experience is our major teacher. Any CB/OB ball relationship might result in a stop shot opportunity or a zero angle option.

For shot 2 and once again this is a great lesson. A zero angle option is available as well as the right cut to the corner with OBC used as aim points for both shots.

If pocket location isn't the reason you choose one option or the other, what is?

pj
chgo

 

[LAMas]

It's easier to find the center of the cb is you just look at the top of it. The highest point is always the center from your perspective to it.

You don't agree? Words like visuals get in the way.