Foul or no foul? You be the ref.

Good hit or Bad Hit?

  • Foul

    Votes: 25 18.8%

  • No Foul

    Votes: 107 80.5%

  • I'm going back to the CTE thread.

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Total voters
    133
  • Poll closed .
jason

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
Let's see how good the AZ'ers are at judging hits.

Watch this hit at 47:00 before reading on and decide if it is a foul or no foul.
Don't cheat. Come back and post your answer ASAP.


http://ustre.am/_XIGq:HRR

nographics.jpg
 
Last edited:
If it hit the 8 first it wouldn't have been able to roll forward as it did. it would have rolled more towards the 8 ball. clean hit.
 
Don't scroll down if you didn't vote. Go back and do it now!





























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This first diagram shows the approximate location of where the 7 ball would go if cut at 90 degrees. The white lines.


setup.jpg

In the second diagram shows where the 7 ball ended up. Maroon line.


foul.jpg


The lesson for anyone who got it wrong here is to watch the action of the 7ball when calling a good or bad hit. Physics never lie. It is impossible to back cut the 7 ball to where its final location ended up.
 
Stephenstill05 said:
If it hit the 8 first it wouldn't have been able to roll forward as it did. it would have rolled more towards the 8 ball. clean hit.
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You are correct except you said 8 when it was the 7 ball. :)

Most people on AZ will know this answer, but some less experienced league type players might find this information valuable. I hope this helps someone in the future.
 
Soooooo???

So are you saying it was a good hit or a foul? From the camera angle presented and having watched the hit several times over I think it was a good hit
 
The cue ball followed the ball that was hit first.
Hit the 2, into the seven and back into the three.

If the seven was hit first, the opposite would have happened.
 
Good hit, no foul. If Hatch hit the 7 first the 7 would have ended up farther down table near the rack area.
 
Watching the final path the cue ball takes after contact with the second ball it was a good hit. Very close though I wouldn't want to be that ref now getting questioned on the hit. Those guys have to make some tough calls with uptight people at times and rarely have the ability to do a replay. I am sure a good many people had to look at that video several times to get the call correct.
 
jason said:
You are correct except you said 8 when it was the 7 ball. :)

Most people on AZ will know this answer, but some less experienced league type players might find this information valuable. I hope this helps someone in the future.
Click to expand...

DON'T MISTAKE LEAGUE PLAYERS FOR HACKS clean hit all the way
 
FASTEDDIE427 said:
DON'T MISTAKE LEAGUE PLAYERS FOR HACKS clean hit all the way
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Fasteddie, I'm not making that mistake at all. I did say less experienced league players, but more experienced players will miss this sometimes too. No experienced ref or player would have missed this call if they paid more attention.

The point here is just about everyone who plays will be in the refs position at one point or another. It is important to look at the relationships of the balls pre-shot to give the best evidence of a good hit or not.
 
Well,,I got it wrong!! I was watching for angles you described but still couldn't tell.
I would rather get it wrong than vote for anything CTE!!!
Hats off to the refs,,,I would do terrible at it. I'm surprised they went and watched a replay to make the call.
 
That was a wild situation, and overall a great call by Ken Shuman to go back and make sure that the correct call was made - and it was a good hit all the way.
 
Neil said:
Jason, sometimes you can tell by the ob's, but always look at the carom lines off them for the cb.
The cb is your big tell on the hit. This was an obvious good hit.

It's easy for us being fresh and looking at it. But when you are a ref and standing there for hours, sometimes your head can get a little fuzzy. The refs are only human and will occasionally make mistakes.
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Agreed Neil. Dennis did shoot the shot fairly quickly, so there wasn't much time to look at it before hand. And yes, the refs are tired and only human. But this is their job and a mistake at this level can be a match changer.

I think it was great they used instant replay to get the call correct. They were lucky this time that it was on a tv table.

I have had players cheat me in Vegas. A video camera and instant replay would have proved them wrong. The BCA or VNEA will never be able to have a ref at every table in their big tournaments. What I think would be nice is if it was an option for the players to video their own matches. Under the right guidelines, refs could have a monitor to replay disputed calls. This could be a great tool for the tournament or it could be a nightmare too because it would slow down play. So, I don't know if it will ever be implemented, but it would be nice if it could.
 
Blackjack said:
That was a wild situation, and overall a great call by Ken Shuman to go back and make sure that the correct call was made - and it was a good hit all the way.
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Absolutely correct Blackjack.

I'm glad Ken spent the time to review the call. Getting the call correct is what is important. Ken was unsure of himself when questioned by Dennis. You could see that on his face. The player is usually the first to know if the hit is good or not. They have already visualized the shot and know what to expect from the balls. Opponents, refs and spectators don't always know the exact intention of the shooter. This could have easily been another safety shot.

After looking at the poll results, currently 20% think it was a bad hit. This post might be more valuable than I thought. If accurate, at least 20% of the people here have something to learn.
 
jason said:
Absolutely correct Blackjack.

I'm glad Ken spent the time to review the call. Getting the call correct is what is important. Ken was unsure of himself when questioned by Dennis. You could see that on his face. The player is usually the first to know if the hit is good or not. They have already visualized the shot and know what to expect from the balls. Opponents, refs and spectators don't always know the exact intention of the shooter. This could have easily been another safety shot.

After looking at the poll results, currently 20% think it was a bad hit. This post might be more valuable than I thought. If accurate, at least 20% of the people here have something to learn.
Click to expand...

I had a better advantage than most - there is a like a delay of a second and a half between what happens on the table and what we see on the screen when we are calling the commentary. So I had the advantage of seeing Dennis make the two ball, and then I saw the hit again on the screen.

It was clearly a good hit, and Dennis did a great job explaining where the 7 ball would go if he had hit it first.

It was Ken's call - and I could tell that Dennis knew that I had seen the clean hit - you can see him come right up and ask me if it was a good hit. I didn't say anything either way, I know better - and that was when Dennis asked if they could review the footage from the stream. Once again, that was Ken's decision and I believe he made the right choice to go back and look at it. When Ken reviewed the tape he immediately admitted he was wrong and apologized to both players.

Eventually, Raj ended up winning that game.
 
This is actually one of those situations in which it's impossible to be sure whether it was a good hit or not. If the cue ball just barely skims the bad ball going in the balls will end up in the same positions as if the hit were good. Here, I mean just barely, barely skim the ball so that it moves less than 1mm before the cue ball hits it a second time. It will be impossible to see the first (bad) hit, so the referee has to call a good hit.
 
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