Bca senior events • discussion

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I always assumed that when I became a "Senior" I would be eligible to play in Senior Events. Boy was I wrong.

Several years ago, I played in only one BCA Open 8 Ball tournament (Amateur division). I had never played in one before or since. I had a very good run coming in 13-16th. I was close to 54 years old at the time and looking forward to playing with the guys closer to my age in the Senior events. The truth is some of them play better than I do.

However because I played well in one BCA Open 8 ball tournament, I am prohibited from playing with the rest of the Seniors.

I always thought that the Senior events were for Senior players....

I realize that if a Senior player is dominating an event the BCA can ill afford to have that player remaining in the Senior Events. It wouldn't be fair to allow a top player to monopolize the Senior events year in year out.

It is my opinion that it isn't fair to keep any amateur player out of the Senior events, ESPECIALLY if they have never competed in them. It would make good sense to move a player out of the Senior event into some other event, possibly to the Masters or some other "Advanced" division if they were regularly finishing in the top positions of the Senior Event.

As you age, you lose some of your skills as well as your stamina and I don't think the current way that "some" aging seniors are treated is fair at all.

Some seniors like myself are not allowed to play in BCA Senior events because they once had a good tournament in the Open amateur events.

I'm kind of curious as to what all of you think about the fairness or unfairness of preventing Seniors from playing in Senior events even though they have NEVER PLAYED IN even one single BCA Senior Event.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that any of you have and look forward to your perspectives whether you are young or old.

Thanks,


JoeyA
 
I'm with you on this one Joey. You definitely should be able to play in Senior events. I can attest that the fields are full of very good players. I played twice and had a high finish (Seniors) of 13-16th. And I played good, just got beat by two better players. Personally I don't like banning anyone from competing. If I'm playing, I like taking on a good player. I never liked it when Bob Vanover got kicked upstairs to the Masters after he won like three or four successive Senior titles. I WANTED to play him, just for the challenge.
 
You monster players want to win everything! I personally think that there should be a tourney for super seniors with an Arizona rating of 5. :yeah:
 
JoeyA said:
I always assumed that when I became a "Senior" I would be eligible to play in Senior Events. Boy was I wrong.

Several years ago, I played in only one BCA Open 8 Ball tournament (Amateur division). I had never played in one before or since. I had a very good run coming in 13-16th. I was close to 54 years old at the time and looking forward to playing with the guys closer to my age in the Senior events. The truth is some of them play better than I do.

However because I played well in one BCA Open 8 ball tournament, I am prohibited from playing with the rest of the Seniors.

I always thought that the Senior events were for Senior players....

I realize that if a Senior player is dominating an event the BCA can ill afford to have that player remaining in the Senior Events. It wouldn't be fair to allow a top player to monopolize the Senior events year in year out.

It is my opinion that it isn't fair to keep any amateur player out of the Senior events, ESPECIALLY if they have never competed in them. It would make good sense to move a player out of the Senior event into some other event, possibly to the Masters or some other "Advanced" division if they were regularly finishing in the top positions of the Senior Event.

As you age, you lose some of your skills as well as your stamina and I don't think the current way that "some" aging seniors are treated is fair at all.

Some seniors like myself are not allowed to play in BCA Senior events because they once had a good tournament in the Open amateur events.

I'm kind of curious as to what all of you think about the fairness or unfairness of preventing Seniors from playing in Senior events even though they have NEVER PLAYED IN even one single BCA Senior Event.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that any of you have and look forward to your perspectives whether you are young or old.

Thanks,


JoeyA
Click to expand...


So let me get this straight: you are barred from playing in the Seniors division because you *played* in the Open division once or, because you *played in the Open division once and did well*?

Was this an official ruling (did someone tell you this), or is it in the rules somewhere?

Lou Figueroa
 
Joey, I played in the seniors division last year, 2010, and I happened to win the event. It was my first time competing with seniors of any sort in my life. I enjoyed the fact that I was playing people more my age. I was sixty at the time and the age of fifty-five was the youngest you could be to enter. I just wish I had one chance to defend my title before I was moved out.

This year I was moved to the advanced group of players. I guess they want to make things fairer. I don't think any of the other seniors, besides myself, that were moved, showed up. I lost to two players much younger than myself. This isn't a complaint, it's a fact. One player was eighteen. He went on to win the event. The other player was in his low thirties. I had already played in two events and my age definitely caught up with me. Again, not an excuse, a fact of life.

I'd like to compete with players my age because I want to know how I really stood in the pool world. I worked all of my life, I also stepped up and played in many pro events and did well. I thought I was good enough to beat most of the players of my generation. I only got one chance to prove it. I also took pretty good care of myself and survived in the pool room atmosphere. No easy feat. I don't think I or anyone else should be victimized because they managed to play well at a later stage of their lives.

I'm not bragging but I never played eight-ball on smaller tables. I felt that was my spot to the other players I competed against in 2010. I still don't know how I pulled it off.

I didn't cash in the advanced group. I did cash in three of my four events. I wonder how I'll be treated in the up coming years event. Whatever the case, I'll probably show up. I just love playing.


____________________________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
 
To start with, I have never played in the BCAPL National Tournaments let alone the Seniors event. I have played in two State level Tournaments (Iowa VNEA and ISPA) in the Senior events. They both have similar rules to what you have describbed. I was part of the original group that created the Seniors Division (in the ISPA) and here's what we came up with.

Of course you need to meet the age requirement. Next, Master players are not allowed to participate in the Seniors Division...Open players only. If you were a Master player, you could request to play in the Seniors Division and if the Qualification Committee approved your application (they would consider your past record and your current ability) you could participate with a one game handicap (because you were a Master player).

I have played in these Senior divisions for 4 years now. I have always cashed and actually won the 8-ball (ISPA) and the 9-ball (VNEA). In the VNEA, I am now required to play in the Men's Open Level for one year before I can return to the Seniors. I believe the ISPA may adopt this rule as well. I am not against it as it keeps the players on a more level field in the Seniors Division.

I have to agree with Tom McGonagle...as a Senior, our stamina is not what it used to be and it shows. Our matches are timed a little longer than Open or Master matches and we limit our tournament time to noon til 10PM. We need our sleep. I will play in the Open next year, but I doubt I will be able to keep up with the ego and testosterone level of those twenty-something kids. I know I'll win a few matches, maybe even cash, but I doubt I'll win...but I'll try.

As far as not allowing someone to participate in the Seniors Division due to past performance...well, that's a tough one. It's always been hard to accuratley rate someone's ability, especially if they have no previous history in an event. I believe the Seniors Division was created because of the stamina issue and also to allow some of the older Open players who were forced to compete with those young guys. If you're old and still play like a Master, you should stay in the Masters...but it's still a tough call.

I'd almost like to see two Divisions in the Seniors...Senior Open and Senior Master. I truely believe there is a division of skill in the Seniors that this would resolve...but then again, you still have someone deciding which Division you should play in.

I do know some senior aged players who won't play in the Seniors event because they say it's tougher than the Open. All I can say is "hey, these guys have all been playing for 40-50 or more years...if they haven't done it, they've seen it done".

It's difficult, but some hard written guidelines should be provided. It's hard to justify telling someone is overqualified for a certain division without some sort of defined score or something...but it needs to be done.

Sorry for the length, but I have been involved in creating a Seniors Division at the State level and I think I have some insight into the process.

L8R...Ken
 
JoeyA said:
I'm kind of curious as to what all of you think about the fairness or unfairness of preventing Seniors from playing in Senior events even though they have NEVER PLAYED IN even one single BCA Senior Event.
JoeyA
Click to expand...

My opinion is: It is pure horsesh*t that they don't at least let you in for ONE TIME just to see how you fare. Heck, although Tom posted above that he won last year, I think he should have had at least one more go at it. Playing the "what if" game: What if Tom would have finished no higher than say 15-16 place in his quest to repeat? This would have proved that he probably still needs to stay in that Division. But now we/he will never know and he's unfortunately locked-in playing against equal/better competition with younger bodies and minds.

And....as far as what they did to you makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. I say they should at least give you ONE go at it to see how you fared. Based on your age, you have earned that right.

They need to quit worrying about having repeat winners and do the right thing with the age Divisions. That said, I can see where if a Senior player won maybe three titles in a 3-5 year period, okay then maybe that player needs to move up a Division. But what they did to you is crap!!!

Maniac.......... P.S. I hope you enjoyed your birthday!!!
 
tom mcgonagle said:
Joey, I played in the seniors division last year, 2010, and I happened to win the event. It was my first time competing with seniors of any sort in my life. I enjoyed the fact that I was playing people more my age. I was sixty at the time and the age of fifty-five was the youngest you could be to enter. I just wish I had one chance to defend my title before I was moved out.

This year I was moved to the advanced group of players. I guess they want to make things fairer. I don't think any of the other seniors, besides myself, that were moved, showed up. I lost to two players much younger than myself. This isn't a complaint, it's a fact. One player was eighteen. He went on to win the event. The other player was in his low thirties. I had already played in two events and my age definitely caught up with me. Again, not an excuse, a fact of life.

I'd like to compete with players my age because I want to know how I really stood in the pool world. I worked all of my life, I also stepped up and played in many pro events and did well. I thought I was good enough to beat most of the players of my generation. I only got one chance to prove it. I also took pretty good care of myself and survived in the pool room atmosphere. No easy feat. I don't think I or anyone else should be victimized because they managed to play well at a later stage of their lives.

I'm not bragging but I never played eight-ball on smaller tables. I felt that was my spot to the other players I competed against in 2010. I still don't know how I pulled it off.

I didn't cash in the advanced group. I did cash in three of my four events. I wonder how I'll be treated in the up coming years event. Whatever the case, I'll probably show up. I just love playing.




____________________________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
Click to expand...

That's cause you're Right On Cue!
 
Baby Boomers are everywhere.

lfigueroa said:
So let me get this straight: you are barred from playing in the Seniors division because you *played* in the Open division once or, because you *played in the Open division once and did well*?

Was this an official ruling (did someone tell you this), or is it in the rules somewhere?

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what happened in 2004. I played in my first BCA event and came in 13-16th and was immediately moved into the Master's Division, where I never competed again.

Yes, I was told that if you are a Master's Player you cannot play in the Senior's Division(S). And no, I have not seen it in the rules anywhere.

Candidly, while this may go against the grain with some of my peers, I do not think that these Senior Titles should be defended, although I can easily understand why a senior player who wins the event would want to defend his title. (I know it's more than money). The reason I am against Senior victors winning more than one event is simply the statistics.

There are a lot of us out there and we're not getting any younger. Each of the seniors who have participated in pool for as long as we have, should have the opportunity to compete and win ONE of these treasured events. Winning two of these events is not fair to those who are aging by the day, waiting for their day in the sun.

Furthermore, I think it is unfair to ban any non-professional players who have never played in any BCA events, regardless of their prowess at the table. These are short races and anyone can win these events.

My feelings and perspectives extend to both the Seniors Event and the Super Senior's Event.

No one who is deemed a professional player should be allowed to play in either event.

Look, I'm not trying to run CSI's business or the BCA pool league's business. They do a FANTASTIC job in evolving pool in America. I just think these two events need to be looked at and that changes should be made for the benefit of growing population of aging seniors as well as the promoters themselves.

JoeyA
 
With the population increasingly growing older it seems as if there might be room for A,B,and C classes at the national level seniors. At our age it's a little tough to say, "I'll get 'em next year," if you get beat 2 and out by a coupla' masters in a senior tournament. Maybe next year we're unable to play at all.

The vast majority of senior players cannot even compete in the 'open' seniors tourney. But we would like to have a part in the scene at Las Vegas
simply because we love game, the subculture, and the comraderie.
 
12310bch said:
With the population increasingly growing older it seems as if there might be room for A,B,and C classes at the national level seniors. At our age it's a little tough to say, "I'll get 'em next year," if you get beat 2 and out by a coupla' masters in a senior tournament. Maybe next year we're unable to play at all.

The vast majority of senior players cannot even compete in the 'open' seniors tourney. But we would like to have a part in the scene at Las Vegas
simply because we love game, the subculture, and the comraderie.
Click to expand...

I think having different classes for the two senior events diminishes the integrity of the event but that's just me. I don't want to win a Senior's event with the worst players in my division. I want to compete against any senior who is not a professional player, PERIOD and not a repeat winner of this event. (No offense Tom. You are DA MAN!)

I've played in many tournaments over the years and went two and out by lesser players. I don't think it really matters if you go two and out by a better player or a lesser player.

Dumbing-down the Senior events for those who compete just for the camaraderie, the subculture and the love of the game is not the way to go imo.

Now if you're talking about having a Senior, Silver Senior and a Super Senior Event based upon age, then I could understand that although I'm not sure if we need some additional Senior events. The number of entries and their ages should be a gauge to determine if another Senior event is actually needed.

AMATEUR SENIOR EVENTS should be about your AGE, period.
 
JoeyA

First off, I feel your pain. I was in the same situation. This is a BCAPL Rule and hard to get around.

Let's try talking with Mark Griffin and see what the rest of the story is. The answer maybe quicker that you think.

I think you young kids should all be in the Seniors Div. having fun. Leave us old farts along.

Randyg
 
randyg said:
JoeyA

First off, I feel your pain. I was in the same situation. This is a BCAPL Rule and hard to get around.

Let's try talking with Mark Griffin and see what the rest of the story is. The answer maybe quicker that you think.

I think you young kids should all be in the Seniors Div. having fun. Leave us old farts along.

Randyg
Click to expand...

Currently the answer is: Play in the Master's Division and lose a couple of times and you can be demoted back to the Open Division and then you will be eligible to play in the Senior events. That doesn't seem fair to me. Amateur Senior events are supposed to be AGE RELATED.

Who knows, maybe fairer solutions are already in the works?
 
IMHO a Senior Event is for person of a CERTAIN AGE, like the Senior Olympics, if your are 50 or over you are welcome to participate in Senior Olympics.

Here is Arizona they do have 8 Ball in the Senior Olympics, but the Pool like the Senior Olympic is dyeing, as the promoter continue to raise the entry fee, and the only reward for winning is a FAUX Gold colored, Silver colored, or Bronze colored medal.
 
The BCA can't get it right at any level. Apparently they don't know about "GOOGLE". For God's sake, just Google a guy and see what he has done lately, and you will know if he is an open player, advanced, master, senior, super senior, grand master, pro, HOLY C_ _ P my head hurts now!!!

If a guy is of the correct age, and is NOT tearing up the circuit in the BCA, APA, VNEA, ACS, then let him play. If he wins so many times (plug in a number) then move him. They REALLY need to figure out a better structure.

Mike
 
Joey, Here is another one for ya. I was going to play in the seniors event. I was good, all of my prior play was on teams. We finished top 10 the year before but I don't think that was a problem.

I turned 50 that year but it was after the nationals. Yes I said 50 that was the age requirement. The next year BCA decided to raise the age to 55. I thought hell, when I'm 55 they'll raise it to 60. As it happens things change and after that I lost interest. Maybe I should thank them since they saved me a lot of time any money. Now I just spread it around local. I don't need the nationals and they don't need me. Good luck what ever happens but don't sweat the small stuff.

Rod
 
tksix said:
The BCA can't get it right at any level. Apparently they don't know about "GOOGLE". For God's sake, just Google a guy and see what he has done lately, and you will know if he is an open player, advanced, master, senior, super senior, grand master, pro, HOLY C_ _ P my head hurts now!!!

If a guy is of the correct age, and is NOT tearing up the circuit in the BCA, APA, VNEA, ACS, then let him play. If he wins so many times (plug in a number) then move him. They REALLY need to figure out a better structure.

Mike
Click to expand...



"At any level"
Sorry you are so mis-informed.
randyg
 
randyg said:
"At any level"
Sorry you are so mis-informed.
randyg
Click to expand...

Randy,

what do you mean?! I respect your opinion without question!!

But honestly, the Vegas tourney has been a struggle for years when it comes to players playing at their "correct" level.

Mike
 
Just throwing this out there...there was a rule for what was considered a vintage motorcycle for the vintage class when I was racing.

The rule was any bike that was x years or more older than the current year was legal.

Maybe something like this could be applied. A win or whatever, x years ago does not count. Even if x has x amount of wins in x years in x class, they can not play in that class.

Anyway something like this.

FWIW

PS, whats after seniors class-vintage?
 
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