Top and Bottom English???? WTH?

["CaliRed".]

I think these two opinions are a good synopsis for all the excellent graphics in this thread. Too many times the words reverse and inside are used interchangeably and their seperate meanings are lost.

It's also amazing how much verbage and bandwith a group of pool players can employ to expound on such a simple subject. And they say pool players are way down the food chain...sheesh!

Best,
Mike

Yes, this was the point of my post I was trying to breakdown the ways people describe shots. I probably was in error for not pointing out the distinctions that 3andstop was kind of enough to add.

For example, if there was this shot and a fellow player told me to how to hit it and he used the following terms to describe it... All of them mean the same thing to me and I would know what he was talking about.

CueTable Help

use a bunch of right
use a lot of inside
put a lot of reverse on it

They all mean the same thing to me.

I know the right is describing the hit on the cueball
I know the inside is describing the hit on the cueball (in this particular shot inside is hitting it with right)
I know the reverse, is meaning the action the cueball takes after hitting the rail.

Obviously if the cueball is never going to hit a rail, the person would probably not offer up the reverse comment

It is pretty interesting how many different ways there are to describe things in pool. I think it's important that people understand what they all mean correctly, or else those people are teaching a whole other group of people the wrong terminology and it gets more confusing.

That being said... I'm perfectly fine with people describing anything in any way their heart desires. I don't lose sleep over it and my heart rate doesn't go up any. This whole thread is simply a discussion of the way I learned it... some may agree, some may disagree, some may want to learn the correct way, some may not.

I was also curious if the majority felt the same way I did about the terminology and the fact that those words that describe a hit on the cueball and the action of the cueball off a rail are often used loosely, assuming that you know what they mean.

 

["CaliRed".]

Ahh, In the image I copied I didn't even know there was an object ball involved.

are you saying that image sucked the big one then? I got a little carried away I guess. I wanted to project how just the slightest difference on a hit of left or right of center made all the difference in the world.. I got this wild hair thinking if I blew up the balls, that would help. So next thing you know, I'm drawing up images in Fireworks.. I'm copying tables into Photoshop trying to figure out how to make it 3 d so I could show it better. 90 mins later, it was time to go to work

 

[risky biz]

The description on the diagram in the first post in this thread is incorrect.

If the cueball hits the short rail first the action of the cueball will be killed. That's reverse English.

If the cueball hits the long rail first the right hand English will add impetus to the action of the cueball. That's running English.

 

["CaliRed".]

The description on the diagram in the first post in this thread is incorrect.

If the cueball hits the short rail first the action of the cueball will be killed. That's reverse English.

If the cueball hits the long rail first the right hand English will add impetus to the action of the cueball. That's running English.

There are many images in this thread. Since you said the image in the 1st thread, I am going to have to assume you mean this one. But since there is nothing incorrect in this image, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tell me exactly what is wrong with this diagram. Are you following the correct cueball with the correct lines? Are you reading the correct text box with what is there?

It clearly shows that using right hand (inside) and the cueball hitting the bottom rail, it has reverse on it

It clearly shows that using right hand (inside) that if the cueball hits the side rail, it will have running english on it. This image was created to show that MOST of the time, inside is reverse, but in these type of cases it is not.

You seem intent on pointing out problems and errors.. but show me exactly where there is a error here. You're saying the same thing I say on the image, but yet you post a whole post about how it's wrong. If it's wrong, then so are you, because you're agreeing with me.

If you don't find anything incorrect, then wipe your words out of your post and I'll wipe mine out here.

CueTable Help

 

[risky biz]

There are many images in this thread. Since you said the image in the 1st thread, I am going to have to assume you mean this one. But since there is nothing incorrect in this image, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Tell me exactly what is wrong with this diagram.

I think this should be more than clear enough to understand what I mean:

Originally Posted by risky biz
The description on the diagram in the first post in this thread is incorrect.

If the cueball hits the short rail first the action of the cueball will be killed. That's reverse English.

If the cueball hits the long rail first the right hand English will add impetus to the action of the cueball. That's running English.

Fini.

 

["CaliRed".]

I think this should be more than clear enough to understand what I mean:

Originally Posted by risky biz
The description on the diagram in the first post in this thread is incorrect.

If the cueball hits the short rail first the action of the cueball will be killed. That's reverse English.

Damn.. why am I doing this? Once again, as stated in the post above this. How is what you are saying, different then what is clearly shown here in the diagram? I don't know what the hell you're arguing about.

If the cueball hits the long rail first the right hand English will add impetus to the action of the cueball. That's running English.

Fini.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So I think we have the following possibilities for side spin:

1. Right inside draw running
2. Right inside draw reverse
3. Right inside stun running
4. Right inside stun reverse
5. Right inside follow running
6. Right inside follow reverse
7. Right outside draw running
8. Right outside draw reverse
9. Right outside stun running
10. Right outside stun reverse
11. Right outside follow running
12. Right outside follow reverse
13. Right full draw running
14. Right full draw reverse
15. Right full stun
16. Right full follow running
17. Right full follow reverse

and the same for all those with left side spin instead of right. We would have 18 cases (36 including mirroring) except full stun tends not to be running or reverse.

Exercise for the student: diagram a shot for each of those 17 cases where the spin makes sense for the position required. (Fanatics can also diagram the shots for left side spin.)

 

[Underclocked]

There are three possible and correct terms for describing any extreme side spin applied to a cue ball.

1: Duck butter
2: Muckinpucky
3: dewey

:grin:

 

[vincentwu817]

So I think we have the following possibilities for side spin:

1. Right inside draw running
2. Right inside draw reverse
3. Right inside stun running
4. Right inside stun reverse
5. Right inside follow running
6. Right inside follow reverse
7. Right outside draw running
8. Right outside draw reverse
9. Right outside stun running
10. Right outside stun reverse
11. Right outside follow running
12. Right outside follow reverse
13. Right full draw running
14. Right full draw reverse
15. Right full stun
16. Right full follow running
17. Right full follow reverse

and the same for all those with left side spin instead of right. We would have 18 cases (36 including mirroring) except full stun tends not to be running or reverse.

Exercise for the student: diagram a shot for each of those 17 cases where the spin makes sense for the position required. (Fanatics can also diagram the shots for left side spin.)

Wow that is a long list. Running and especially reverse English also react very differently depending on the stroke which would lead to infinite possibilities of terms

 

[risky biz]

Damn.. why am I doing this? Once again, as stated in the post above this. How is what you are saying, different then what is clearly shown here in the diagram? I don't know what the hell you're arguing about.
View attachment 186045


View attachment 186046

Duh? Here are the two statements on the diagram:

"Cueball B is where the same right english (inside), is reverse english as in most cases because it is hitting the bottom rail first."

"This is a example of where right (inside) english would normally be reverse, but because it hits the other rail first, it becomes running english. If it would have hit the bottom rail, it would be reverse english.

The diagram shows cueball B hitting the short rail (blue track). "is reverse english as in most cases because it is hitting the bottom rail first" is slightly imcomprehensible as to the meaning intended but it seems to at least say that it is reverse english and the blue track shows it hitting the short rail. That is correct if that's the meaning intended.

The second statement uses the term "the other rail" so must be referring to the white ball with the red dot which hits the long rail. Describing that as running English would be correct. But then the note plunges into incomprehensibility again by saying "If it would have hit the bottom rail, it would be reverse english." That is incorrect.

Are you a pool instructor by any chance?

 

[OneIron]

You might be interested in this website:

http://www.bottomenglish.com/

 

[risky biz]

You might be interested in this website:

http://www.bottomenglish.com/

I hate having to get into this with someone else again but that website is incorrect. In the fourth paragraph it states the following:

"Is cornhole your preferred game? We have a huge selection of plain and printed bags, scorekeepers, LED light kits, and boards and our products have a warranty. We can also offer advice on building your own set of cornhole boards with our free plans. Have a business or favorite theme? We can make custom board sets with custom decals to suite your needs."

Can you see how the last sentence in that paragraph is wrong? In fact, I think many people would consider the whole paragraph wrong.

 

[PaulieB]

Does it matter if I call left english "pink elephant" and right english "white rhino"? And depending on the shot, I could be using "running white rhino"!

For that matter, if I call it "pink fluffy bunny" but think I'm using running inside reverse draw follow english with a bit of stun .... and I make the rock go exactly where I want it to ... who cares what I call it!?!?! It's like chicken winging every shot yet getting every shot in, who the heck cares? I think if you looked a bit you could find Fats or Crane or one of the old timers referring to top and bottom as "english". I know I was originally taught that using any spin on the cue to achieve a placement result different than what would happen with a center ball hit was called using "english". As long as you aren't trying to say you are a certified instructor, what's the big deal?

 

[OneIron]

I hate having to get into this with someone else again but that website is incorrect. In the fourth paragraph it states the following:

"Is cornhole your preferred game? We have a huge selection of plain and printed bags, scorekeepers, LED light kits, and boards and our products have a warranty. We can also offer advice on building your own set of cornhole boards with our free plans. Have a business or favorite theme? We can make custom board sets with custom decals to suite your needs."

Can you see how the last sentence in that paragraph is wrong? In fact, I think many people would consider the whole paragraph wrong.

Don't know about wrong but it's definitely disturbing...