ABP boycotts Berhman's event

[alstl]

This has a familiar sound to it... same sounds as the org that started in 2003.

What does the ABP have to guarantee the US Open 9 Ball event?



And the first act is to boycott an event that offers prize money. We have to lose money first, then we can grow?

I would like to see the ABP start its own tour.

Easier to complain about others. Oh darn, did I say that?

 

[master9baller]

I understand what the players are trying to accomplish, but they are shitting where they eat. From what I understand, Barry loses money every year and comes out of his own pocket to pay the players. It sounds like he would be better off to not have the open but he does it for the betterment of pool.

Without the Behrman, Greg Sullivan, Janis, and Mark Griffin there would almost be no professional pool in America.

There hasn't been a well established and good paying tour for pool in 20+ years. Anyone who wants to start one is losing money so what is the incentive?

I really hope this gets worked out, but without the players the tourney will die. Without the tourney the players are screwed.

I don't see Dechaine on that list. Is he the favorite to win now?

No Earl is.

 

[pt109]

This post deserves a bump

I may be naïve but it is worth a shot. Why not pre-sell live internet coverage to insure the gate. Let the fans support the event if they want to see pro pool grow. I would pay $100.00 for a week’s worth of coverage with two or three user selected matches over any given set.

The last time I went to the US Open I enjoyed sitting behind a couple of pro players one day but had to watch the finals from the nose bleed seats on the TV monitor at the end of the room. I decided right then that it was my last US Open. See it better a year later on DVD.

Seems to me that someone could pre-sell DVDs and live streaming to raise money to support the event. 5k fans at $100.00 is some reasonable support and the costs go down with less need for an arena. Hell it could be played out of his pool room with $1,000.00 admission for those who want live coverage on site.

I am of the opinion that pool does not lend itself well to convention centers. It does display well on the internet. As far as I am concerned DVDs and live streaming can include ads that support the sport. I would even be more inclined to buy from commercial vendors who included their infomercial on the DVD / stream.

Someone needs to get a little creative here.

If players, as part of their admission to the event, had to agreee to put on a demo, engage in an interview, and possibly include tips on the stream and DVDs every one could be encouraged to get involved and help support the sport.

I'm not too happy with the ABP right now.
The US Open, with all it's flaws, is my favorite tournament ever.

..and some of the boycotters are slower payers than some promoters

 

[book collector]

Boycott

Congratulations to the ABP and all of it's members.
I wish all of them the best of luck and hope that the folks who put on the Derby CC will put on a tournament in it's place.
This is way overdue.
If Mr. Behrman has lost money so many years on this venue, like he says he has, then it is past time for someone to step in and relieve him of the responsibility, and the financial drain.

 

[justadub]

I can't believe that this thread has gone 11 pages and no one has brought up how this benefits the ladies.... This year there isn't supposed to be any scheduling conflict to keep the top pro's from being able to play, if I remember correctly. This boycott could allow many of the top ladies to go deep into the tourney this year...

I wonder how long this "boycott" will last, and how many of those on the list in the initial post will still be boycotting when it comes time to play.

 

[JB Cases]

According to Barry Behrman, he's stuck 150k right from the git go:

http://azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8881

The newly formed ABP, in their first major pre emptive strike, sound a lot like the original Charlie Williams led UPA...


Eric >hello 2003

Actually.....

Last year Barry promised the ABP to have the money in escrow BEFORE the event started. Remember that he promised to have it all brought out in cash World Poker Tour style to show everyone?

Didn't happen and I am guessing that there are still some unpaid players from last year's event which is why we are where we are.

Charlie Williams was also right to do what he did. The US Open was also the catalyst for the UPA to be formed. The UPA unfortunately made a lot of mistakes in how they handled things.

It's a very simple equation. Regardless of what the promoter's situation is there is a very real obligation to PAY the players when they finish the tournament. The players should not have to worry about or care how much money they promoter has spent putting on the show. They are the actors, they show and perform for the crowd and expect to get paid.

Everything else is nonsense and fluff.

Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin have been putting on tournaments for about 15 years now.

Has anyone ever heard one single complaint about players not getting paid by them?

I haven't.

Not only that Mark personally stepped in to get the players paid for an event he didn't even have anything to do with.

So all this love Barry bullshit is bullshit. He does put on a good show and I have enjoyed each one. But this yearly dance around paying the players is really not good for anyone.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

I totally agree. There is no excuse for not paying in FULL.

Boycott isn't the answer, it is an attention getter. But, who will be paying attention? if the US Open doesn't happen this year, then what?

Different Dance, Different Tune... no dance floor.

So all this love Barry bullshit is bullshit. He does put on a good show and I have enjoyed each one. But this yearly dance around paying the players is really not good for anyone.

 

[master9baller]

Just light Tom to see the negitive in everything, I would like to see you do ANYTHING for pool other then ***** like a little baby. Pool needs the players to stand up for them selves. And do something positive for the good of the sport.

What do they have to offer the US Open? How about the best players int he world who sell seats, and TV PPV. Thats what they have, they need to take hold of their own destiny as players of this game.

Just because you can't play and have no game dosn't mean you always have to piss in someones Cheerios.

This coming from the founder/tournament director that outright robbed players of yearend finals monies and then badmouthed a hall of fame great who helped give his tour a start. Good to see you back Mike. What's DIMIRO mean again?

 

[12ozCurl]

This coming from the founder/tournament director that outright robbed players of yearend finals monies and then badmouthed a hall of fame great who helped give his tour a start. Good to see you back Mike. What's DIMIRO mean again?

Okay I'll bite...what does DIMIRO mean? I googled it but it did no good.

 

[master9baller]

Okay I'll bite...what does DIMIRO mean? I googled it but it did no good.

The name of his failed tour from last year, sorry it was DMIRO, Don't Miss or I'll Run Out. It ended with him robbing all the year end tournament money without explaination and then trying to pin it on anyone but himself, including Hopkins. Not the guy to weigh in on this subject to be sure.

 

[justnum]

The general consensus seems to be a boycott is unproductive. From the pro players POV the demand has been about getting business people to prove they have the means to deliver what they specify on time and as stated. It is not an uncommon request for a client to inquire about the specifics that effect them, especially if they operate on a schedule.

Aside from suggesting better alternatives to the one selected, the consequence the players are hoping as a result of a boycott are unclear. Clearly they don't want the headache of waiting for a check in the mail which is why they want proof of prize money. I doubt they have other intentions, they most likely want a record saying that this particular event run by Barry is considered risky because a failure to prove the prize money is in the bank. (I didn't see a chronicler on the ABP member list, someone to keep official records. But with the internet everything is a public record.)

Reasons for Barry not sharing information like that to the players are because he doesn't want to and it isn't worth his time to share that information. Barry might just be so busy preparing the event, making sure everything is there and ready for the opening. For him to spend an effort reiterating what the ads have been saying about prize money seems redundant. Barry says he will put on an event and it will have a certain amount of prize money, so that is what you can trust, his word. What more do you need? If someone else messes up, then it isn't Barry's fault. He does and has done the best, so take it or leave.

 

[JB Cases]

I totally agree. There is no excuse for not paying in FULL.

Boycott isn't the answer, it is an attention getter. But, who will be paying attention? if the US Open doesn't happen this year, then what?

Different Dance, Different Tune... no dance floor.

Well, the players spend their money in advance to get there. I don't know what else they can do.

I can't imagine trying to win the US Open, with a legitimate shot at it and all the time worrying about whether I will actually get paid or not.

Seems like a major drag on the psyche.

 

[JB Cases]

The general consensus seems to be a boycott is unproductive. From the pro players POV the demand has been about getting business people to prove they have the means to deliver what they specify on time and as stated. It is not an uncommon request for a client to inquire about the specifics that effect them, especially if they operate on a schedule.

Aside from suggesting better alternatives to the one selected, the consequence the players are hoping as a result of a boycott are unclear. Clearly they don't want the headache of waiting for a check in the mail which is why they want proof of prize money. I doubt they have other intentions, they most likely want a record saying that this particular event run by Barry is considered risky because a failure to prove the prize money is in the bank. (I didn't see a chronicler on the ABP member list, someone to keep official records. But with the internet everything is a public record.)

Reasons for Barry not sharing information like that to the players are because he doesn't want to and it isn't worth his time to share that information. Barry might just be so busy preparing the event, making sure everything is there and ready for the opening. For him to spend an effort reiterating what the ads have been saying about prize money seems redundant. Barry says he will put on an event and it will have a certain amount of prize money, so that is what you can trust, his word. What more do you need? If someone else messes up, then it isn't Barry's fault. He does and has done the best, so take it or leave.

How about simply wanting to get paid as soon as they finish the event. It's a time honored tradition that when you finish the tournament you get paid.

Now of course I know that in real professional sports players don't actually get paid on the spot. That is because in those sports promoters are vetted and made to show that they have the funds enough to cover the prize monies.

The problem with Barry's word is that it hasn't been good and the players are left begging for their money. And when they complain too loudly they are thrown out.

Mika was ejected from the convention center one year when dared to ask for the money owed to him from the previous year. This is a player who took second in the US Open and he was treated like this?

 

[book collector]

Boycott

I would like to see the ABP sponsor their own "North American Open " or whatever name, tournament this year.
If you take the $500.00 per player x 256 players which the tournament has had no problem filling lately, thats $128,000.00. {Paid ahead}
You will need to have all money paid for entry at least 2 months ahead of time and make it a first come first in basis after that. The only way to get an entry after the field is filled is to buy one from a player.
Add vendor booth rentals, concessions, discounted spectator tickets for buying ahead and take your futures into your own hands gentlemen.
Take the "in hand" money and get everything set up and it will happen. People don't come to see promoters, they come to see the players and their friends.
I can't imagine that Greg Sullivan and company will not get involved in this.
The worst case scenario is that no one but the players shows up and you are all out 500.00. The same as you would have been at any other tournament.
The best case scenario is that you will decide your future.
I have some other ideas if anyone from the organisation would like to contact me. {I will talk to anyone who is legitimate , but if you just want to tell me how stupid I am, lets save ourselves the trouble.}
If it were me and with all the previous problems I would not waste any more time expecting a different outcome.
I think it is time to move on and see what it is like to be the first one to count the money.

 

[enzo]

good for the players, they dont have a very illustrious history of decision making, hopefully this one will turn out better for them. i think the key is staying unified.

 

[racefornine]

Maybe Barry should add a percentage of the proceeds , instead of a gauranteed amount . The new organization ABP show up in full force and help promote the event . If there is no profit there shouldnt be added money . If it fails to be profitable it will be everyones fault , fans , players and promoters .

 

[know it all]

True words have been spoken.

My opinion may not be important but I do have something to say.

1st, the ABP has no shot of being a real players union. For them to be successful in this format there would have to have been a successful, profitable tour for them to boycott. Boycotting independent events as a group gets them nowhere. I am sure the US Open or the Turning Stone events will go on in one form or another with or without these players but I do not fault any of them for not wanting to attend the US Open event based on what we all know about the lack of payouts in a timely manner or in a whole from this event.

2nd, the ABP should absolutely 100% without a doubt start there own tour. I happen to be personally familiar with the ins and outs of tours and I personally think it would be the right thing to do at the right time which is RIGHT NOW. I mentioned this in a conversation with Archer this past weekend and I think it took him by surprise and I really do not think they have given this idea much thought but the definitely should.

3rd, many here are right in saying this organization will not work. As soon as the 1st player crosses the picket line all is lost for the APB. The only people that will suffer will be the remaining players on the other side of the line that did not cross it.

To sum this up. There is NO TOUR and NO MULTIPLE events here in the USA for them (the ABP) to boycott. Last weekend Archer and Putnam both played in a $3,000 Guaranteed Prize Fund with only $1,000 guaranteed 1st place Olhausen/Maxim Billiards Tour event. I mean really, if they want to boycott any event under $25,000 added and not seeded which this event was not seeded either then neither one of them had any business showing up and playing at that event. How freaking serious are they and what were they thinking?

As of right now without any real tour to boycott the ABP is nothing more than a bad joke or press release if you will.

If these guys want to really get something going for themselves they need to add a promoter and tour coordinator to there roster and get the ball rolling now.

TAP TAP TAP True words have been spoken. Rich Ford aka the skunk

 

[jrackman]

I wouldn't trust anything Archer or Putnam have a hand in after seeing their sneaky tactics of "cut you in on a money match" caught on tape at the Bad Blood event.

didn't hear about this, but if true, not good for pro pool.

 

[zerowins]

What players, if any have dropped off this list? And in the same light what players have joined the ABP since this PR?

1.Johnny Archer USA
2 Mika Immonen FIN
3 Efren Reyes PHI
4 Francisco Bustamante PHI
5 Darren Appleton ENG
6 Shane Van Boening USA
7 Rodney Morris USA
8 Alex Pagulayan PHI
9 Dennis Orcullo PHI
10 Thorsten Hohmann GER
11 Lee Van Corteza PHI
12 John Schmidt USA
13 Corey Deuel USA
14 Huidji See NED
15 Mike Sigel USA
16 Nick Varner USA
17 Buddy Hall USA
18 CJ Wiley USA
19 Tony Drago MLT
20 Raj Hundal ENG
21 Karl Boyes ENG
22 Imran Majid ENG
23 Marcus Chamat SWE
24 Roberto Gomez PHI
25 Carlo Biado PHI
26 Warren Kiamco PHI
27 Antonio Lining PHI
28 Jundel Mazon PHI
29 Shawn Putnam USA
30 Mike Davis USA
31 Stevie Moore USA
32 Oscar Dominguez USA
33 Charlie Williams USA
34 Dennis Hatch USA
35 Jeremy Jones USA
36 Allen Hopkins USA
37 Scott Frost USA
38 Ernesto Dominguez MEX
39 Kim Davenport USA
40 Rob Saez USA
41 Tony Crosby ENG
42 Art Wiggins USA
43 Tommy Najar USA

This list will be updated as more pro members join and may choose to not participate.

This was the list published on AZ on July 4th. in this article http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8882
I already see quite a few names that have been dropped as there were 71 names on this list. That means 28 players have already dropped off this boycott list. I did not cross reference the names but 28 is a substantial number of drop-outs and only 42 boycotting the US Open is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

July 4, 2011 Updated ABP Player Membership

Mike Sigel USA
Nick Varner USA
Buddy Hall USA
CJ Wiley USA
Ralf Souquet GER
Niels Feijen NED
Darren Appleton ENG
Tony Drago MLT
Chris Melling ENG
Mark Gray ENG
Thomas Engert GER
Raj Hundal ENG
Imran Majid ENG
Marcus Chamat SWE
Karl Boyes ENG
Scott Higgins ENG
Huidji See NED
Oliver Ortmann GER
David Alcaide ESP
Efren Reyes PHI
Francisco Bustamante PHI
Alex Pagulayan PHI
Dennis Orcullo PHI
Lee Van Corteza PHI
Roberto Gomez PHI
Carlo Biado PHI
Warren Kiamco PHI
Antonio Lining PHI
Jundel Mazon PHI
Shane Van Boening USA
Mika Immonen FIN
Johnny Archer USA
Shawn Putnam USA
Rodney Morris USA
Mike Davis USA
Thorsten Hohmann GER
John Schmidt USA
Corey Deuel USA
Stevie Moore USA
Oscar Dominguez USA
Charlie Williams USA
Dennis Hatch USA
Jeremy Jones USA
Allen Hopkins USA
Scott Frost USA
Ernesto Dominguez MEX
Tony Robles USA
Ronnie Wiseman CAN
Kim Davenport USA
Tony Crosby USA
Jeremy Sossei USA
Tommy Kennedy USA
John Morra CAN
Rob Saez USA
Ben Zimmer USA
Larry Phlegar USA
Chris Szuter USA
Art Wiggins USA
Brian White USA
Jeff Crawford USA
Bill Mccollum USA
Jeff Beckley USA
Bill Incardona USA
Stefano Palinga ITA
Tommy Najar USA
Corey Harper USA
Ron Park USA
James Barraks USA
Justin Daniels USA
Dan Wallace USA
James Roberts USA


Based on the Dop-Out rate in only 3 days I don't think the ABP has any shot of really working as an organization. However, based on the original list of 71 I think as Geno stated ( on page 8. post #118) that they had a shot of forming a tour for themselves and they should.

2nd, the ABP should absolutely 100% without a doubt start there own tour. I happen to be personally familiar with the ins and outs of tours and I personally think it would be the right thing to do at the right time which is RIGHT NOW.

 

[PoolGrapevine]

Fyi, Those names didnt drop off. they are still members. the first list are just players that committed to not attend. the rest members are free to do what they want. according to my friend in ABP board, there is no official boycott. (tho it does sound like on Lol)