The Break - Ball in Hand after the Break and the Five Ball

[pt109]

I agree. However with bets and pool, I think it's like the cube in backgammon. When someone is comfy and running out at "1" -- they may not at "64."

Good point also.
Had a friend who declined to 'beaver' a cube to 64 at $50 a point.
He said he deserved to lose 'cause the guy said he would 'raccoon' it.
(he was about a 5 to 1 favorite)

..next time he played, he refused to be high-rolled and won a lotta cash.

Seen a lotta pool players lose big ,cause they were using money pressure...
..that's a slippery slope

 

[peteypooldude]

Any air breathing human

 

[pt109]

Well, it is known though that you can take a great pool player that has only played sets for $100 or $200 and bet him $1000 or $5000 and when the game starts getting tough they crumble horribly...

My point was that the player who WOULD crumble horribly....
...doesn't play.
It takes heart to DECIDE to play for large...so watch out if he does.

In your defense, I've seen top players who don't gamble crumble for
big $$$$ while being BACKED....not so much when they bet their own.

 

[Spimp13]

Wow, I thought there would be one seasoned gambler that would know the name of that amount of weight...

That is called : Orange Crush !
And if you are even close to a decent player you will beat just about any pro with that. Like I have mentioned on here a few times, Earl now plays with me a few times a week, living in Florida now. Earl has a tough time beating me giving me the last 3 and the 7. I am a semi-pro though. Nonetheless, giving up the break in many cases is like getting a couple balls depending on the opponent giving up the weight. But to get Orange Crush, its ridiculous, no one gives that weight up!!

But if they do, I have a few backers that could touch pretty close to the million mark between the 7-9 of them, lets do it !!

Chris, I might be mistaken, and others can AZ stone me if I am...but I don't think the orange crush includes getting BIH after the break.

 

[Chris_Horton]

I didn't realize it was ball in hand after the break as well but its just a variation of it. Either way, its stupid weight to give anyone that can breathe air and hold a stick.

 

[tucson9ball]

Hmmmm

1) Viffer gets the breaks

2) He gets ball in hand after break

3) He gets the 5 out but can't shoot any combos or caroms? Did I read that part correct?

This does not describe "orange crush". It's simply the break, BIH and the 5 ball. If any of the balls, 1 to 5 get tied up, Viffer is in trouble.

I predict Bart will win this game. I don't think Viffer plays good enough shape to get there.


Sidenote: If it truly was the break, BIH and the 5 out, I would play anybody on the planet. This would mena that I can shoot combos and caroms whenever they come up.

 

[Chris_Horton]

Well I can say that if you are going to give this weight to anyone, you shouldn't be worried of their ability to make combos at all..

 

[tucson9ball]

Well I can say that if you are going to give this weight to anyone, you shouldn't be worried of their ability to make combos at all..

If the 9 goes to the jaws of the corner pocket on the break, and any of the balls 1 to 5 are near it, it could happen.

Basically, Viffer is getting BIH and has to run 5 balls in a row. That is the bet. How often will he run 5 balls in a row?

I don't think Viffer pockets balls well enough or plays good enough shape to get there.

There are 100's or even 1000's of guys that can play better than Viffer. But, they are not playing in this game.

 

[book collector]

How many think more than 50% of high B players can beat the ghost with ball in hand on a 4.5 inch pocket Diamond table?
No wild 5
I don't think 2 out of 10 can do it.
Cut that in half if its for 100 dollars or more.

 

[Aaron_S]

How many think more than 50% of high B players can beat the ghost with ball in hand on a 4.5 inch pocket Diamond table?
No wild 5
I don't think 2 out of 10 can do it.
Cut that in half if its for 100 dollars or more.

Can do it, or are favored to do it? IMO, a high B player should win 40%-50% of medium-length sets on that table. If they do much better or worse than that, then I would not consider them a high B player. Throwing money into the equation personalizes it to the point where it becomes useless to talk about generalities like "B players" and "A players". Everyone has a different threshold for financial pain, everyone has a different idea of what a "lot of money" is, and each person responds differently to the pressures of money play.

Based on what Dippy has bet in the past, I think he more likely to get bored than he is to choke playing $5k-$10k sets.

Aaron

 

[Roadie]

I didn't realize it was ball in hand after the break as well but its just a variation of it. Either way, its stupid weight to give anyone that can breathe air and hold a stick.

I used to think the same thing. But 10 years of watching the Derby City classic and seeing players like Scooter Goodman getting what looks like ridiculous weight from known champions and losing has changed my mind on the nature of what weight means in pool.

I have gambled all over the world. Mostly with local players and never with known champions. I have given weight and gotten weight. I have never gotten the orange crush. Two days ago I would have taken that weight from anyone on the Earth for as much as I could bet.

Now, it's embarrassing for me to admit that I don't think I could get there. My position play seems to be strangely off when trying to beat the ghost with this spot and although it looks ridiculously easy I can't get out.

I think that physically any decent player should beat this spot. But mentally I believe that the size of the spot weighs on the person getting it to the point that they begin to dog position in ways that they normally would not. Not everyone of course but I do feel that there is something to this theory.

I have decided to try and practice against the ghost this way. First with the five and then with the six and so on. I would like to prepare myself for a trip to the Derby City Classic where such spots are handed out to players like me.

 

[youngstownkid]

so judging from these posts, if i can find the right weight to help me beat the ghost, then that is a pretty good indication of what weight it would take for me to be able to bet with an Earl or SVB, etc?

 

[Roadie]

so judging from these posts, if i can find the right weight to help me beat the ghost, then that is a pretty good indication of what weight it would take for me to be able to bet with an Earl or SVB, etc?

Well, yes. Because the first thing obviously that you need to be able to do is run out to your money ball when you have the opportunity. Obviously that takes away any chance for the pro to get to the table.

Secondly you would need to work on your safeties so as to be able to play pro class safes when you have to. From what I could see those players getting big spots weren't able to play good safes which then turned control of the table over to the pros.

Today I beat the ghost finally in a race to five and lost in the race to nine. Taking it for granted and not focusing is a big culprit. Then there is getting upset when I get out of line on an easy out getting the five. So psychology seems to play a big part. If I don't take the spot I can run past the five easily most of the time.

So yes, I would say that if you want to gamble with champions then it's best to know what spot you can handle. Seems like common sense but in all my life I have never practiced as if I were getting weight. Seems to me that I should so as to learn the mental game behind it.

 

[Masayoshi]

I think winning with this spot becomes exponentially tougher as the amount of the bet increases paired with the champion you're playing.

Dippy aside, I'd prob bet against most of the guys on this board against a top elite pro getting this spot as long as they were betting their own money against their wives' wishes... and betting big.

BIH or not, getting from the 2 to the 3 and then to the 4 with the weight of the world on your shoulders and someone like Bustamante, SVB or Mika breathing down your neck would make most people fold.

The ghost doesn't count because the "ghost" doesn't exist and the "ghost" isn't stacking $20k or so large on top of the light.

Running 5 balls with BIH with 7-9 balls on the table --- with TONS of pressure....anything can happen.

Dippy's different--- he's used to betting like this. Most of the people posting here have never bet that amount or close to it. Funny shit happens when you step off the puppy porch and onto the pit bull yard. Shit starts to break.

I'm not married, but I have a girlfriend that would be plenty pissed off If I bet that much. I can probably come up with $5-10k myself and a backer for the rest. You can bring in Yang, Orcullo, Bustamante, etc. When can we schedule an appointment?

 

[Roadie]

I'm not married, but I have a girlfriend that would be plenty pissed off If I bet that much. I can probably come up with $5-10k myself and a backer for the rest. You can bring in Yang, Orcullo, Bustamante, etc. When can we schedule an appointment?

You can always book a ticket to the Derby City Classic. If you can win with that weight against the top pros then there is plenty of action at that event who can't win with that weight but who would love to play you.

When a known player like Scooter Goodman can get the six ball and the breaks from Shane Van Boening then an unknown American from Japan should be able to get more weight.

You can always fly to the Philippines and get those games. I am sure that someone will try you if they don't know you for a lot less than 5k.

 

[Masayoshi]

You can always book a ticket to the Derby City Classic. If you can win with that weight against the top pros then there is plenty of action at that event who can't win with that weight but who would love to play you.

When a known player like Scooter Goodman can get the six ball and the breaks from Shane Van Boening then an unknown American from Japan should be able to get more weight.

You can always fly to the Philippines and get those games. I am sure that someone will try you if they don't know you for a lot less than 5k.

Lol, I guarantee you its not that easy. Nobody gives that kind of weight out to people they don't know. If you can find someone who does, I have myself and literally dozens of people to line up against the guy.

The reason Dippy gets this weight is because he is well known to be a poor player and has a bunch of cash.

There is a huge difference between ball in had after the breaks and the 5 ball and just the breaks and the six ball. I would prefer ball in hand after the breaks without the 5 ball over the breaks and the 6 ball. Add in the 5 ball and there is no chance a decent player loses.

 

[The Chinchilla]

How many of you think you can beat a professional player with this spot in a race to nine?

Combinations or caroms on the five or the nine after the break is not allowed.

Try it against the ghost and see how you do. I have not beaten the ghost in a race to five yet. Granted I rarely play these days but I certainly can run an open table. Yet, inexplicably I seem to actually get worse when I am trying to win with this spot.

Does getting a big spot make a player worse or somehow affect their judgement for the worse?

Are people actually playing big games with no combos and caroms? I don't think so, but if so, it's news to me. That is a very bad way to play by the way, unless you just want to test your runout skills. Imo it would be better to maybe give the ghost a little something, but just play it straight 9 ball rules. 9 ball doesn't really make a lot of sense if you pocket a "money ball" and have to keep shooting at your money.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I'm not married, but I have a girlfriend that would be plenty pissed off If I bet that much. I can probably come up with $5-10k myself and a backer for the rest. You can bring in Yang, Orcullo, Bustamante, etc. When can we schedule an appointment?

Believe me, even from experience, anybody can say whatever they want here.... but this game aint going off without the player getting the 5 being fully vetted. I'm with you though, wouldn't it be nice to take a mediocre A player around with you and make a living off the pros

 

[Masayoshi]

Believe me, even from experience, anybody can say whatever they want here.... but this game aint going off without the player getting the 5 being fully vetted. I'm with you though, wouldn't it be nice to take a mediocre A player around with you and make a living off the pros

One can dream.

 

[Chris_Horton]

I used to think the same thing. But 10 years of watching the Derby City classic and seeing players like Scooter Goodman getting what looks like ridiculous weight from known champions and losing has changed my mind on the nature of what weight means in pool.

I have gambled all over the world. Mostly with local players and never with known champions. I have given weight and gotten weight. I have never gotten the orange crush. Two days ago I would have taken that weight from anyone on the Earth for as much as I could bet.

Now, it's embarrassing for me to admit that I don't think I could get there. My position play seems to be strangely off when trying to beat the ghost with this spot and although it looks ridiculously easy I can't get out.

I think that physically any decent player should beat this spot. But mentally I believe that the size of the spot weighs on the person getting it to the point that they begin to dog position in ways that they normally would not. Not everyone of course but I do feel that there is something to this theory.

I have decided to try and practice against the ghost this way. First with the five and then with the six and so on. I would like to prepare myself for a trip to the Derby City Classic where such spots are handed out to players like me.

Its known to me but i'll say its an opinion, I have watched plenty of big money games. Getting weight is a huge mental thing for some, it gets in their own heads and says one thing, " I dont play good enough ". Subsequently, they play lessor in situations because mentally they are not focused to just get out to the money ball. Its hard to remember that weight is designed to make both players equal. If you are playing a Pro who will run out a table 95% of the time with no break outs, then the weight should be accordingly the same thing for you, where you can get out 95% of the time. Its like that mentally though because the player getting the weight it some cases, is probably a very good player that will break and run 3-4 racks out of 10. After a certain point is passed in this game physically, where you have a solid pre-shot routine, great eye pattern, strong & repeatable stroke, it becomes a mental test.