2011 APA National Masters in Vegas

Genie8

Registered
Poor playing conditions at 2011 APA National Masters

I just arrived back from the APA National Championships - Masters division in Las Vegas taking place at the Riviera Hotel & Conference Center. I must say how disappointed I was with the playing conditions. It is unbelievable that the APA had the top players in the Masters division from all across North America compete in the convention room with old style used Valley coin op tables. Most of the table rail cushions were dead, the balls were mismatched compositions consisting of old dull balls of different weights mixed in with newer ones. Players had to move team players chairs in order to make their shots. There was no seating for spectators wishing to watch some of these great players. Everything was so crammed in and the only way to watch matches taking place in the middle rows was to go over to the aisles and observe over other matches being played in front of them. All of the Master division matches were paid $1. per game, while the regular 8 & 9 ball teams got to play on open tables with no cost per game. How ironic this whole competition was as the beginners with skill levels of 2, 3 and 4 who don't know the difference of good rails, bed cloth, and a proper set of balls, got to play on new Valley tables with new cloth and a new set of balls in the other convention room with plenty of raised level seating for spectators. There was also a lot of room for the whole team with seating arranged around tables to place their drinks etc. None of the players in this convention room had to move seating in order to play their shots. I think this was an insult to the top players in the Masters division to have them compete in these deplorable conditions. The choice of hard rock music playing too loudly thoughout the competition was annoying and a poor choice of background music. The players who competed in the 2011 APA Masters division should write a letter of complaint to the president of the APA.
 
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I have had discussions with several league operators about the issue and had no luck getting any changes. The 9-ball competition is winding down by Friday and tables start to become available (and remain empty). Question is always - why doesn't the masters tournament start as the 9-ball is shrinking? At least most of the event could be held on the decent tables.

The other frustration is that they will not allow you to split tables. You can be 2 minutes from sudden death with 5 empty tables next to you and they will not let you start the next match on the adjacent table. If they used the empty room they could schedule each match to use 2 tables and cut down on the match time. By Sunday they could use 3 tables and run the matches every hour and a half.

As for spectating, we had many friends refuse to even try to watch the masters teams because of the terrible arrangement. Several were looking forward to watching some great matches, but realized it was impossible unless your team was on the perimeter.

4 years of hoping for change is over for me. APA will simply not accept better players as part of their vision. Not jumping on the APA basher list but I am planning my first trip in 10 years to the BCA event.
 
Welcome to AZ, Genie.
..did someone rub your lamp the wrong way?:yeah:

Don't think you'll find much disagreement on here about that.
..sooner the game goes to Diamond smart tables, the better.....
..good balls, good cloth, and reliable rails.
 
Welcome to AZ, Genie.
..did someone rub your lamp the wrong way?:yeah:

Don't think you'll find much disagreement on here about that.
..sooner the game goes to Diamond smart tables, the better.....
..good balls, good cloth, and reliable rails.

Thing is, it is highly doubtful (imho) the APA will switch to Diamonds any time soon.
 
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Just FYI, the APA national tournament WAS played on Diamond Smart Tables...for a couple of years. They decided to cut off their nose to spite their face...because of disagreements between Mark Griffin and APA Corporate (nothing to do with anything Mark did, btw). Just goes to show you that Corporate APA would rather use crappy equipment (a slam to their membership), than admit that they cannot act like adults and businessmen, and allow their national tournaments to use the best equipment available. Funny how many local APA leagues play on Diamond tables, with no problems. IMO, if ALL the APA LO's banded together, and insisted on switching to Diamond tables, or they won't send teams to Vegas, APA Corporate would be forced to change. I won't hold my breath waiting for either of those things to happen, though. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thing is, it is highly doubtful (imho) the APA will switch to Diamonds any time soon.
 
I have had discussions with several league operators about the issue and had no luck getting any changes. The 9-ball competition is winding down by Friday and tables start to become available (and remain empty). Question is always - why doesn't the masters tournament start as the 9-ball is shrinking? At least most of the event could be held on the decent tables.

The other frustration is that they will not allow you to split tables. You can be 2 minutes from sudden death with 5 empty tables next to you and they will not let you start the next match on the adjacent table. If they used the empty room they could schedule each match to use 2 tables and cut down on the match time. By Sunday they could use 3 tables and run the matches every hour and a half.

As for spectating, we had many friends refuse to even try to watch the masters teams because of the terrible arrangement. Several were looking forward to watching some great matches, but realized it was impossible unless your team was on the perimeter.

4 years of hoping for change is over for me. APA will simply not accept better players as part of their vision. Not jumping on the APA basher list but I am planning my first trip in 10 years to the BCA event.

Chipsta, thanks for the insight. It was my first trip to the APA Masters and I didn't realize the timing of the 9 ball event and Masters. It makes a lot of sense what you suggested about starting the Masters with the winding down of the 9 ball. Our team was 5 minutes over the sudden death time limit and there were empty tables right next to our match where we could have played the complete next match instead of one game. So much for the APA coming up with a logical solution or for that matter even considering a good suggestion. It will be my last trip to the Masters if the APA do not make any changes to the playing conditions for future Masters tournaments. Instead of of being given the respect of paying our dues over many years contributing to the APA and achieving the highest skill level, we were simply given the brush off by the APA.
 
I just arrived back from the APA National Championships - Masters division in Las Vegas taking place at the Riviera Hotel & Conference Center. I must say how disappointed I was with the playing conditions. It is unbelievable that the APA had the top players in the Masters division from all across North America compete in the convention room with old style used Valley coin op tables. Most of the table rail cushions were dead, the balls were mismatched compositions consisting of old dull balls of different weights mixed in with newer ones. Players had to move team players chairs in order to make their shots. There was no seating for spectators wishing to watch some of these great players. Everything was so crammed in and the only way to watch matches taking place in the middle rows was to go over to the aisles and observe over other matches being played in front of them. All of the Master division matches were paid $1. per game, while the regular 8 & 9 ball teams got to play on open tables with no cost per game. How ironic this whole competition was as the beginners with skill levels of 2, 3 and 4 who don't know the difference of good rails, bed cloth, and a proper set of balls, got to play on new Valley tables with new cloth and a new set of balls in the other convention room with plenty of raised level seating for spectators. There was also a lot of room for the whole team with seating arranged around tables to place their drinks etc. None of the players in this convention room had to move seating in order to play their shots. I think this was an insult to the top players in the Masters division to have them compete in these deplorable conditions. The choice of hard rock music playing too loudly thoughout the competition was annoying and a poor choice of background music. The players who competed in the 2011 APA Masters division should write a letter of complaint to the president of the APA.


Sounds like they perfectly recreated the conditions that most APA league matches are shot under.
 
All of the tables that I played on in the Mini Mania room were decent. Nice speed and rails with action. The area was crowded, but has to be expected with so many pool players in one place. A few of the tables did have a roll to them, but both teams had to play on the same conditions.

I was a little disappointed with the tables in the penthouse for semis and finals. They played totally different than the tables in the Mini Mania room. Slow and no action from the rails.

All in all, I thought the Masters Division was a blast and I had a ton of fun. My hat goes off to the Champions, Still Don't Know from Richmond, VA. You guys played great.

Congrats!
 
The tables on the Open side that you claimed were new tables with new balls were no different than what you described for masters. I played doubles, minis, 8 and 9 ball open and the equipment was horrendous in every event. On one table we played on in 9 ball, the side rail on one side of the side pocket was sticking over 1/4 further out than the other side, thus making a rail shot impossible. Then they play on 5 1/4 Valley Pockets and then raise the skill level on all of the players that usually play on Diamonds and big tables.
 
I also played in the Masters tournament and I thought the tables were SO bad. The players deserve much more than what we're given in Vegas. It's gotten worse each year it seems regarding (tables,$,etc) It's as fair for one as it is for your opponent but those tables are ridiculous!!
 
I didn't get to play in the other room as I was in only the Masters event. I went over to the other room several times and saw that the balls were new, and that the tables were the new Valley Panther models with the flat vinyl pocket liners. I can't comment on playing on them but I'm surprised you found no difference in either room. Sorry to hear your experience at the APA Nationals was so bad.

I have sent email messages to Renee Lyle the President of the APA and Bill Tufts a Tournament director expressing my dissatisfaction with the playing conditions at this years APA National Masters. I will post any responses that I receive.

The tables on the Open side that you claimed were new tables with new balls were no different than what you described for masters. I played doubles, minis, 8 and 9 ball open and the equipment was horrendous in every event. On one table we played on in 9 ball, the side rail on one side of the side pocket was sticking over 1/4 further out than the other side, thus making a rail shot impossible. Then they play on 5 1/4 Valley Pockets and then raise the skill level on all of the players that usually play on Diamonds and big tables.
 
My team that I was on came back from their first trip to Vegas for 8 ball. I was unable to go do to prior engagements. They said conditions were horrible. They(most of them) had been waiting for 4 years with the hopes of making it to the big show in Vegas. It wasn't anything like they thought it was gonna be. They flew back early and don't really wanna go back out there.
 
The condition of the tables was embarrassing. Our city wide or LTC tournament that qualifies us for Las Vegas is on Diamond Pro Cuts that Bad Boy Productions provides. Same tables ande handler that are played at DCC, US Open and many other events. For the APA to use, worn out Valleys, with dead as hell rails, monster pockets, army blanket felt, is ridiculous for a national event. The National APA has no respect for its members and only cares about how to manipulate who wins the money so they win the contracts from people on those teams in following years. They simply don't care as long as they get the dough.


QUOTE=Genie8;3178652]I didn't get to play in the other room as I was in only the Masters event. I went over to the other room several times and saw that the balls were new, and that the tables were the new Valley Panther models with the flat vinyl pocket liners. I can't comment on playing on them but I'm surprised you found no difference in either room. Sorry to hear your experience at the APA Nationals was so bad.

I have sent email messages to Renee Lyle the President of the APA and Bill Tufts a Tournament director expressing my dissatisfaction with the playing conditions at this years APA National Masters. I will post any responses that I receive.[/QUOTE]
 
Two years ago I went to Vegas for Scotch Doubles and the tables and balls were bad back then as well. You'd think whoever rents them these tables would take a little pride in what they are renting as well. Shame on the APA for allowing players, much less Masters level players, to play on the crap that they bring in.
Just one reason why players go to leagues such as TAP and BCA.
But I'm sure no one from the APA is listening.
 
Cash Cow!
Why change the product if thousands keep buying it up. For the money you spend on league fees, you could book a trip to Vegas. or DCC.
 
every year its the same. nationals happens and people start threads talking about how bad the tournament tables were. nothing every changes. I went last year and yeah the tables did vary greatly with some playing good, others playing horrible. One match I played in at Singles nationals in April, my opponent says to me..oh look we got one of the good tables. He was referring to it being a newer table. Later in the match he shot a ball straight into the pocket and it goes in and then comes back out and lands back on the playing surface. My opponents says...yknow Dave...I take back everything I said about this table. lol he was a good sport about it and a good player too. Like someone else posted though, the 5+inch pocket tables are a joke and so many of the players were just running rack after rack on them. Then they had to fade having a "w" placed next to their name and eventually getting raised and locked nationally at a spot that made it tough to win back home on big tables or tighter pocketed diamond small tracks.
 
I played in the Masters and in the 8-Ball Team event this year...

I have a huge beef with the running of the Masters...

There simply wasn't enough room for the players... Each match was allocated 4 chairs (so I was told), so that would mean 2 chairs per team with the other players and all friends, family standing outside the playing area...

Well, in our first 2 matches the other team arrived first and took all 4 chairs and basically told us to go screw ourselves... I mentioned it to an official and they told me "to settle it with the opponents"...

In our 3rd match ANOTHER team's entourage took all four chairs and it took some threats and shouting to get it sorted out...

In our second match I literally had to stand up (which I think is illegal) while I wasn't shooting... I stood in the middle of the room getting in other people's way because the officials wouldn't correct the situation...

As far as the playing conditions, I have never bothered with those too much... They are what they are and I'll either figure it out or I won't...

I agree with Uwate that the pocket size is a joke... With buckets like these you had to fade the possibility that your opponent would run the set out on you at any moment...

I played a kid from Illinois and was ahead 3-0... Broke dry and he ran out and then put a 3-pack on me... I was damn lucky to get back up to the table at all...

I won the match 7-6 because I hit 3 monster 9-ball combos down 6-4... Combos I NEVER would have tried on a Diamond...

Who was the better player? Who the f**k knows...!?!

Normally I just treat these events as a chance to take a trip to Vegas and play a little pool...

This year I thought both of my teams had a chance to do some damage and we flamed out of both events... Oh well...

I am seriously considering not playing next year if they can't, at the minimum, sort out the seating in the Masters...
 
You players in the master division are just so mistreated. Unless someone s making a living at it, treat it for what it is supposed to be .FUN.
 
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