2011 APA National Masters in Vegas

APA income 30 million? Probably that and more. 300,000 players x $100 apiece is 30 million, and most people who are active spend alot more than that.

Where does this 30,000,000 come from.

you quote 300,000 x 100 per player. Who pays 100 per player - certainly not me - do you ?

I paid a $25 memberships and my weekly fee goes to my league ooperator (which i understand a very small amount then goes to the APA).
If you use a number of 260,000 members (which i think is close) X 25 that equals $6,500,000 from the memberships. Not $30,000,000. If you know more than me then please tell me where the other $23,500,000 comes from.

I absolutely hate it when numbers are thrown around with no basis to back them up.

Leagueguy
 
League guy,

They employ 50 people at their MO office. I'd bet 30 million easy, really not all that much money. Then again what product do they produce at what cost?

I would say to contact them and ask them to open the books. Since they are a private company they may not, but you never know.

What I can't understand is where all of the beautiful people are on APA night. The APA propaganda has some real beauties in every ad, but they are nowhere to be found on league night.

Bottomline the APA is a business, filling a niche. And if it's the future of pool, well the ship is already underwater.

APA
1000 Lake Saint Louis Blvd.
Suite 325
Lake Saint Louis, MO 63367
Phone: (636) 625-8611
Fax: (636) 625-2975
Office Hours: 8:30 am - 5:30 pm Central

As far as being the future of pool ya"ll are a little f*^%(# late. The league has been around since 1980 when it debuted as the busch league.
 
The amount of money the APA takes in is speculation. And what difference does it matter? It's a private business that people CHOOSE to be affiliated with or not. If you don't like don't play, how hard is that.
 
The APA website says that they have 265,000 members. If everyone just played for one session at $8 per week on a 14 week session,that would come to($112 per person) $29,680,000. Now multiply that times 3!! That doesn't include the($25) $6,600,000 in yearly dues

You think that the LO's are making that kind of money and not corporate?

I know the house and LO gets a % but the APA is definitely taking in over $30,000,000 in revenue.
 
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A little apa FYI. The only money that apa gets is the yearly membership. the weekly dues go right into the league operators pockets. Here in lawton there are right at 100 teams. Our weekly dues are $6 per player/$30 a team x $100 is $3000/wk x 34 weeks per year. You do the math. Our local payouts suck. But on the flip side. Anybteam that qualifies for Vegas. He pays their entry, gives half of your winnings to you but to get the other half you have to go to Vegas or you're SOL!!!
 
Big assumptions for the math:

APA takes $2 of the weekly $8 dues from the members weekly

265,000 active members

250,000 members play on average a week

3 - 14 week seasons a year for 42 weeks total yearly

$25 yearly dues


$2 X 42 weeks X 250,000 members = $21,000,000 yearly take from weekly play

265,000 active members X $25 = $6,625,000 take from yearly membership fees

$21,000,000 weekly + $6,625,000 membership = $27,625,000 yearly take

This is before expenses are paid from all the events that they put on in Vegas plus the US Am Championships. All of this is speculation.



I hope they grow and improve their operation in the coming years and bring as many people into the pool halls as possible to keep the doors open. I'm not a huge fan of the APA league but I'm observant enough to see that it's paying the bills at my local hall. Leagues are the only entity bringing in large numbers of new blood to the pool world.
 
Chevy

I definitely added an extra session in there..:smile:... Math skills took a step back..lol

I would think you're pretty close on the $2. I know the LO told me once that they have to pay a %. I never asked what it was. I play on (3) teams per week and our Masters team pays $10 per match. I pay $26 per week. I have no idea of what they take in but it's enough to make the table conditions better for their national tournament.

What do you all pay for masters league in your area?
 
The APA league has done great things to keep pool alive in rural areas and has certainly helped out many a business that otherwise may have been closer to shutting shop.
Lots of people enjoy going out and playing a game of pool with friends and then get the opportunity to meet new people and play in places they otherwise would not of had the opportunity to do so.
Quipping on the money side is sour grapes to me. The league operators do alot of background work that is often thankless , but is necessary for it all to run.
The reason it works is because alot of people put in alot of work, quite a few are just volunteers.
On the scheme of things,the $6 a week or so is very cheap for several hours of entertainment, and fun.
 
playing4$...You have a bet sucker! Post it up! Are you on the 'good action list'? I'm pretty sure I can find SEVERAL others who would like to take $200 from you as well. How much are you willing to lose? Nobody yet has posted what the accurate numbers are (of course I already know, since I was an APA LO...sure you still want to bet?). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yes, Scott and whoever else likes we can bet $200 apeice and I will find evidence of their gross. Certainly in excess of 30 million. .
 
Pool4u, Just so I am not confused, you are saying that the APA main headquarters makes over $30,000,000 a year?

What I am meaning by main headquarters is the part of the APA that puts on the National event, the part that gets sent the initial membership fee from all the league operators.

Here is a link that talked a little bit on the money of leagues also but its about a year old.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=196778&page=3

Not trying to get action from you and the following is all on speculation and I dont know the facts, but from the outside looking in, this is my analogy.

If the APA main headquarters just took $2 from each player a week and you estimate out of 260,000 members each member plays in only one session, then that is roughly 65000 members a week playing. With holidays and other days off between leagues, estimated about 40 out of 52 weeks played. Thats roughly $5,200,000 just in weekly payments from players for an entire year.

Then you add the $6,600,000 from the membership and that is $11,800,000. Definately not a small chunk of change, but its far from $30,000,000 by my guestimate.

Even if all members played in all 52 weeks of the year, that would equal $27,040,000 and that may be closer to your number. With the membership fees, that would equal above your $30,000,000 guestimate.

I for one would love to see you prove it in hard facts rather than guestimates and I am sure that I am going to get flamed for making guestimates without having hard core facts, but I just dont see the APA headquarters making $30,000,000 a year.

Yes, they make a lot of money but its a business and they are providing a product. If you dont want the product, then dont buy it....
 
chevybob20...You're close, but a little off. There are currently somewhere between 18,000 and 25,000 active teams...remember only 5 of 8 on a team play in a given week, and pay dues. Also, only about 60% of active teams play all three sessions. Team dues vary by league area, but let's use $30 as an average...$6 goes to corporate. Even if you take the high side (25,000 teams), and they ALL play all 42 weeks (which they most certainly do not), you still only come up with about $12,000,000 gross (which includes annual membership fees). Of course, even $12M is a lot of money, and reason enough to add more money to their national events (I think they advertise $1.5M added for all national events together...and not all of that is cash). You have to go a LOOOONG way to get to $30 million!

play4$...how's your bet looking so far? LOL AcuraHeel...You want action too?

posted by play4$: Tuesday I played a 4 locally who said I would be a 7 in 8 ball, perhaps an 8. He said I'd have to play him 3 games to 5 with the "equalizer" handicap. I said what else do you want? He asked for all the breaks....sure thing. 20 minutes later he lost 5-1, just $20 and wants to quit. Dam I love league players...they just don't know what they don't know.

Oh, and one more thing...play4$...there are no APA 8's in 8-Ball...7 is as high as skill levels go! LOL Pretty sure we can find some real 7's that you can gamble with...probably even some 4's that play like 7's...interested?

On a side note, as mentioned by the more lucid members here, however much money the local LO's make (at least for most of them), they deserve every dollar, to put up with the whining, complaining, etc.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

QUOTE=chevybob20;3184532]Big assumptions for the math:

APA takes $2 of the weekly $8 dues from the members weekly

265,000 active members

250,000 members play on average a week

3 - 14 week seasons a year for 42 weeks total yearly

$25 yearly dues


$2 X 42 weeks X 250,000 members = $21,000,000 yearly take from weekly play

265,000 active members X $25 = $6,625,000 take from yearly membership fees

$21,000,000 weekly + $6,625,000 membership = $27,625,000 yearly take

This is before expenses are paid from all the events that they put on in Vegas plus the US Am Championships. All of this is speculation.



I hope they grow and improve their operation in the coming years and bring as many people into the pool halls as possible to keep the doors open. I'm not a huge fan of the APA league but I'm observant enough to see that it's paying the bills at my local hall. Leagues are the only entity bringing in large numbers of new blood to the pool world.[/QUOTE]
 
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It is what it is. The leagues are supporting the rooms all across the country. They bring more new blood to the game than any other source. Most are casual/social/recreational players, and remain so. But a percentage of those, because of natural talent, desire, or just falling in love with it, become serious pool players. If you think about it, leagues probably bring develop more serious pool players and fans of the pro game than any other source too.

I'm just the opposite. I've always taken the game seriously and until a year ago never played league. A friend in my area was starting a new league (not APA) and I knew a couple of guys that needed another team mate so I joined, mainly to get out of the house one night a week. I have fun. That's all I ask, that it be fun. And I don't know about other leagues but there is small action available among the serious players at my league every week.
 
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play4$...The difference is you SAID $30M, and I said "BET". You said "I bet $200 against Scott and anybody else." I said, "You have a bet. POST UP!" I don't see you running to put up a bet (So, do we still have a bet?). The product they (and all pool leagues) are selling is called "entertainment". Ever heard of it? People have been paying for it for only about 2 or 3 millenia now. Yes APA Corporate makes a lot of money...so does IBM and Ford. Do you really believe it costs $1000 to make a computer, or $10,000 to make a car?

If you knew anything, you would know that APA doesn't even handle the pool tables at their events...and therefore doesn't get the drop either! You cannot be that dumb to even suggest that there are 18,000,000 games played at the national tournaments. BTW, it costs a dollar a game at ALL of the national tournaments, not just APA. Yeah, it used to be a quarter 30 years ago...times change and costs go up (are you old enough to remember gas costing less than fifty cents a gallon? I am). Keep digging your hole...pretty soon you may dig yourself all the way to China (where they don't have APA, but do have millions of poolplayers)! LOL

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Okay Scott 12 million, say 20 million or 30 same difference. So what is the product they sell again? How much does this product cost, nothing really. APA spends only on advertising money to promote their product, which is a pittance compared to whatever they make? They do nothing to promote the game.

Christ they made an assload on the $1 a game action on 200 tables over the event. That might be the missing 18 million right there! The payouts are a joke.

Bottom line, most APA players are like guys that bowl on the company bowling team. They get 145 and think they are all that, they're not.
 
china

Okay Scott, I forgot you are always right!

So APA just lets some vendor come in a make $1 a game without a cut...Oh really, now who sounds dumb!

SBE 25 cents a game, Allen Hopkins is the man bar none. We need more people like him, Zuglan and Berhman and less corporate minds like the APA. Once people lose there way about what this game really is all about, who will steer them back?

China yes is the future of pool, the best market to sell cues bar none. Expanding middle class and they love all things from the USA. Surprised the APA doesn't try to get in there, but I'm sure you will correct me and tell me they are already there.




This entire thread is such a waste of time!!!! LOL
 
APA responds to my complaints about 2011 Masters

As promised here is the reply I received yesterday from Bill Tufts, Director of Tournament Productions for APA. I was quite impressed that he took the time to address each of my complaints and seemed quite genuine, although not all were satisfactory answers.

Thank you for emailing us and sharing your concerns regarding the playing conditions at the 2011 APA Masters Championships. Though we are sorry to hear you feel your experience was less than satisfactory, your input, along with others who have sent us recommendations, helps a great deal in making appropriate changes that will improve the quality of the event in the future. We are not always able to make the suggested changes we receive from our players, but it is my hope that through this email you will gain a better understanding of why we made certain decisions in regards to the Masters location and setup. The reasoning behind these decisions are always evaluated with the other aspects of the 2011 APA National Team Championships in mind, and we continuously strive to make our tournaments better for everyone.

As you are probably aware, this tournament requires over a year’s worth of planning, and each individual event must be coordinated around the other events taking place. For this reason, due to amount of details that go into it, there is always room for improvement. Unfortunately, sometimes these problematic areas are not fully realized until the event is taking place, at which point, changes cannot be made without disruption of play. Sometimes, these difficult areas are unavoidable, from the outset, in an effort to produce the event as a whole. Please allow me to take the time to address your specific concerns, and pardon me for the list-style responses, as they make it easier for me to form responses.

• Spacing in Preregistered/MiniMania room –
We will be looking to increase the spacing for the Masters to decrease the cramped nature of the area. Likewise, we will also look to limit who enters the arena (possibly through name badges for players only), and designate specific chairs for each table/team to avoid confusion. This should help mitigate the crowded nature of the space.

• Spectator Seating (Preregistered/MiniMania) –
Unfortunately, there is no space to add this seating without eliminating large portions of the very events we are trying to add spectator seating for. In order to fit this seating into the room, playing tables would have to be taken away. This would significantly reduce the amount of tables for MiniMania and Preregistered events, and would force us to reduce the amount of teams in the Preregistered events. This would also force us to cut many of the MiniMania events. This year, we were able to increase the Masters Championship from 192 teams to 256 teams, subsequently increasing the top payout from $7,800 to $10,000, but required all of these tables to do so. Going backwards at this point would create more dissatisfied players than satisfied ones, and does not seem a viable option.

• Location (Prereg. v. Main room)-
The location of the Masters is based on the Preregistered structure of the event. The Masters, although a very popular format, and one that does have divisions across the country, is still not a National format like 8-Ball Open, 9-ball Open and Ladies 8-Ball. This means that although some areas qualify Masters teams to participate in the Masters Championships through League play; other areas allocate their slots in a number of different ways (and do not have to have League requirements to compete in the Championship). In this way, Masters is more akin to 8-Ball Doubles, 9-ball Doubles & the Wheelchair Challenge; thus, they all play in the same tournament room, under the same conditions.

The issue that arises when looking to place Masters in the Main tournament room, where there is ample spectator seating and newer tables, is how do we as an organization explain to those other formats (8-Ball Doubles, 9-ball Double & Wheelchair) that this is necessary for Masters play, but since we cannot possibly fit them all into the Main tournament room, their events must remain where they are currently? It is a tricky question to answer, but if necessity required, could be worked around. The key point here is that we believe each of the Preregistered formats are equal; therefore, we have our reservations about creating a perception that Masters play is more important than other play. That said, it is not a given that Masters (under its current team count and structure) would even fit in the Main room with the other play, though that is a popularly held belief. Currently, Masters requires 13 rounds of play (each around 4hrs.), with a maximum of 64 tables being used in the first three rounds, and a total of four days of play. We do not have 64 tables available in the Main room until the first Saturday night (9-Ball) and into early Saturday afternoon (at which time play is suspended to make room for all 94 tables to be used for 8-Ball Open). This is not enough time to fit in the Masters event. Likewise, we continue to use all 94 tables for nearly every round of 8-Ball Open until the afternoon on the last Thursday of the event and extending then throughout Friday. Keep in mind, there may be alternative means of fitting in the Masters, but they will require much more thought and planning, and may, in the end, may not be viable options for the players/teams involved (i.e. – lengthening of the event (days), late-night rounds (midnight to 4am), restructuring of the format (less teams, shorter race, etc.).

• Tables (Valley v. Diamond)–
It is true that many players prefer to play on the Diamond brand tables, but from our experience, there were many players who had concerns regarding those tables as well and were just as vocal in their displeasure. Please keep in mind that the vast majority of APA League play is played on Valley tables, and there are players who feel more comfortable on these tables. Likewise, we understand many players would like to have Diamond tables at the event because they are accustomed to them. The reality is that this is a matter of preference, and one where we would hear dissatisfaction in either direction we choose. The same can be said of the balls (though matching sets, to address your concern, should be provided and we will work to correct this in the future), cloth and rails (the occasional dead-rail will happen given the shear amount of tables at the event, but we do attempt to limit this as much as possible and will continue to work on it in the future).

The fact is, every player is different and has different wants. We do our best to make sure that the playing conditions are as similar as possible from table to table. That said, if a problem is encountered on a particular table, we do have techs on-hand 24/7 to correct the issue if there is sufficient reason to do so.

• Pay-for-Play (Prereg. v. Main) –
All Preregistered championships, because the requirements to enter are significantly reduced as a whole in comparison to the National formats, are required to pay-for-play at $1 per game. This helps offset the cost of the tables. You are correct that the Main room tables are open for play, but again, Masters is no different than the rest of the Preregistered events, and should be compared to those events, not 8-Ball Open, 9-Ball Open, or Ladies (in which every team is required to play weekly to advance to NTC).

• Music –
We agree that the music during the Masters portion of the event was out of character with the majority of our players, and this will be corrected next year. We are truly sorry for this inconvenience.

• Lowers Skilled Players v. Masters Players (preferential treatment) –
As an organization, we do not draw a distinction between lower-end and higher-end players when it comes to the benefits associated with APA play. Whether a new player or seasoned player, we strive to provide an atmosphere where everyone, regardless of ability, feels welcome to participate. Though the conditions differ based on the distinction between a National format and a Preregistered format, we will not, under any circumstance, base playing conditions on a player’s ability. Suggesting that Masters deserve more simply because they are better on the table goes against our core belief, and a point in which we will most likely have to agree to disagree.

Again, I would like to thank you for voicing your concerns. I hope, through this email, you have a better understanding of why the decisions were made regarding the Masters event, and that the reasoning behind them was sound. Likewise, it is my hope that you know we have heard you, we take your comments/concerns very seriously, and that we will work to improve in these areas where we are able. I realize this will not, most likely, satisfy the disappointment you now feel after the event. However, I would like to believe you will take consolation in the fact that you have helped improve our event for future players by making us aware of these issues and allowing us to make them better. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance to you.

Sincerely,

Bill Tufts
Director of Tournament Productions
American Poolplayers Association
 
A well thought out response. Bill makes a lot of good points, and clarifies exactly how the APA views the Masters event.

:cool:
 
A cattle herd mentality,de-emphasizing aspects of competition in order to get as many head through the shoots in order to meet your responsibility of "as advertised".

Call it a Jamboree,just don't call it a competition.

For all of you that want to excel,forget it.You are no more than a managed member of the heard and will be culled if you don't fit in with the mission statement.

Don't think your by yourself in who takes this path in this industry APA,you are just the most glaring example.......Absurd
 
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A cattle herd mentality,de-emphasizing aspects of competition in order to to get as many head through the shoots in order to meet your responsibility of "as advertised".

Call it a Jamboree,just don't call it a competition.

For all of you that want to excel,forget it.You are know more than a managed member of the heard and will be culled if you don't fit in with the mission statement.

Don't think your by yourself in who takes this path in this industry APA,you are just the most glaring example.......Absurd

The APA is managing a HUGE number of participants for their leagues, and their national tournaments. Thus they have to make decisions based on that scope.

It's quite funny to see so many people who hate the APA so much, yet they bring SO MANY people into our sport. It is such a contradiction. It borders on hypocrisy. It's fine if you don't like their style of play or their rules, or whatever. But to spew such venom and hatred towards them so continuously is hard to understand. Again, they bring HUGE numbers of people to this game of ours, people who would never have played it regularly otherwise. What is wrong with that?

Oh, you'd rather have the rooms empty.... until they close for good. Is that it?

sheesh
 
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