Poll: Should Jump Shots Be Banned?

Poll: Should Jump Shots Be Banned?


  • Total voters
    287
  • Poll closed .
If I do a video of raw footage of me doing a LOT of controlled jump shots - game situation shots is anyone here interested in editing it and posting it online?

I can do the video but I have ZERO time to edit it. I can set up two cameras to capture each shot from two angles.

I can upload the raw footage to my ftp server and give you the link to download it. All I ask for is credit to be given to me as the shooter.
 
I didn't SAY it was hard to do. I said that it's EASY to learn and HARD to master. JUST LIKE kick shots, and bank shots, and masse' shots.

Today I did an experiment with my people to see how long it took the people on may staff to make one rail and two rails kicks. These are people with NO formal instruction, no idea of how to measure a kick shot. It took the best player in my shop (the guy who can run three balls once in while btu has no clue about draw, follow or sidepsin) no more than three tries for most of the kick shots and no more than eight tries for the trickier ones.

It took him more than ten tries to get the cue ball to jump using the jump cue. And five more tries after that until he could hit the eight. Then he started to get more control but he was inconsistent.

So with both exercises he was able to get there through pure trial and error BUT he got there quicker with the kick shots.

You can say that as many times as you want but everyone reading it knows it's nonsense. Kick shots can be very easy or very hard. Which kind you're talking about no one knows. A beginner will not be able to kick from the long rail to the opposite long rail to hit a ball near his long rail and consistently hit the side of the ball he's aiming for if he's even able to hit the ball.

Executing an accurate jump shot isn't necessarily any easier but it is easier to just hit a ball with a jump shot which is all that most people using jump shots hope to accomplish. Those very skilled with jump shots have a higher percentage of accurate shots but also a higher percentage of completely losing control of the balls on the table than someone who is just playing pool, i.e., not attempting circus tricks.

In any case, who cares which is easier or harder? That isn't the point.

Sloppy for people who don't put in the time. It's people like you who perpetrate the myth that they are SO EASY to use that actually stop players from putting in the time to master the shots.

Wow! So all those balls flying off the table are my fault. If I'm not the root of all evil I don't know who is.

If the jump shot is so sloppy and low percentage then the professional player who chooses it over a kick shot is really a dumbass huh? Maybe they know something that you don't. Quite possibly they know what shot is the best shot for them to try when they take a jump shot over a kick.

Usually it's a situation where they can attempt a difficult kick-safe but they can't pass up the opportunity to swing for the bleachers and try to make it with a circus trick that very often sends balls off the table.

Why can't you see that the jump cue adds a lot of new shots to the game. Fans love it, players love it. The people who make the rules have evaluated it more than 16 years ago and found it to be worth allowing. Pool has not collapsed.

And people have always loved circuses. Who wouldn't like watching elephants jumping around?

And you know what Allen Hopkins said in the commentary of the Chao/Bustamante match? He diagrammed what Bustamante SHOULD have done to cut off the jump shot. Allen understood that the game requires a deeper level of thinking when the jump cue is available. If that's not evidence of adding skill then I don't know what is.

I'm still waiting for your input about the case where the player played such a good safe that the OB was completely surrounded by other balls and the opponent landed on the OB from outer space. How could the first player have played a better safety? What's the point of playing better safeties when the other guy can whip out his circus act?

HOW COULD THE FIRST PLAYER HAVE PLAYED A BETTER SAFETY?
 
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If I do a video of raw footage of me doing a LOT of controlled jump shots - game situation shots is anyone here interested in editing it and posting it online?

I can do the video but I have ZERO time to edit it. I can set up two cameras to capture each shot from two angles.

I can upload the raw footage to my ftp server and give you the link to download it. All I ask for is credit to be given to me as the shooter.

Why do you want it edited?
 
To kick at a ball is bloody easy. Hit the ball in a straight line. You don't even need a good stroke to do it. You just need to figure out where on the rail to hit the ball. It's is completely process of elimination at the most basic level.

All that did is prove to me you cannot kick. Kicking balls at a high level is not about hitting shots in a straight line and using diamond systems. The people who can REALLY kick at a high level know how various side spins affect the shots off each individual rail, they know what speed of the shot will do to affect the angle, they know how playing high english or drawing the ball into the rail affects the angle coming off the rails. Learning how to hit a straight kick using the diamond system is easy, learning how to master the kicking game with all of the spins, multi rail, hitting balls that actually "don't" have a straight path to hit the ball but being able to bend the cueball to avoid the balls and hit the ball anyways, that stuff is what makes a kicker truly great.

Your quote above proves you have kicking knowledge at the most basic level, or you were simply lying and trying to diminish the true intricasies of kicking to further your arguement with falsehoods... which is it JB?
 
It's generalizations like this that fuel the divide.

You need to keep up with the thread better JB, that was in DIRECT response to this

Eastcoast_Chris said:
For the most part, the people that want to ban them are the people that can't do them very well.

Where was your outrage at that type of generalization when it was used in your side of the debate hmm?
 
So what you are saying then is that they are too lazy to learn a new skill? One that they say is bloody easy. After all you claim it's not a skill at all.

So why not take the easy money?

What is your point in offering a gaff challenge where people play your custom designed jump cue "trick shots" that you have practiced and without a doubt will be practicing like crazy the week before the actual bet to make sure you have all of those specific shots down pat.

What you offer is like a trick shot person offering a challenge match where they play only THEIR trick shots that they have practiced extensively against someone else for cash, who is going to do that? Mike Massey would not be stupid enough to do that, you do know why they ALTERNATE shooting each players trick shots in those competitions right?

You want to take a general shot that is claimed to be easy, and think that you playing specific jump cue jump shots that only you have practiced and that you dreamed up better then someone else means anything at all? Are you going to change the cloth on the table so that the player you bet against does not see the 1000 ball marks in the exact setup location for each of those shots that show your practice sessions on those exact shots for the last week so that you have only those specific shots down pat so you don't lose face?

That is a total gaff game and if you know anything about gambling then you know it, and unfortunately for you so do alot of other people on here.
 
I see the "yes, ban" side is pulling up to 36%+ now. Shouldn't there be another poll after the discussion so those who changed their mind can re-vote? There's no way to change your vote on these polls as far as I know.

The poll is useless, I did not vote at all because while the jump CUE should be banned the jump SHOT should not be. Almost noone thinks the jump SHOT should be banned when using the normal shooting cue and this poll is thus meaningless to the discussion now at hand.
 
Why do you want it edited?

Did you ever watch his CTE video? He missed heaps of pretty simple shots by a diamond at times and if anything hurt CTE. He must have learned the benefits of editting out all those misses.

Mind you, if he does nothing but make all of the jumps it is not exactly winning the arguement. JB is NOT a great player, everyone knows this, but he is going to make a video proving he can play phenomenal shots with a jump cue and get out of all sorts of trouble, is that not the whole freaking point people are using AGAINST jump cues, they let people like JB compete despite his limited skill at the game of pool.

Might as well put out a video uneditted missing tons of jump shots and proving how tough a jump cue is to master, because if JB puts out a video of him making tons of tough escapes and jump shots spinning around the table after making the pot with shape and all I think that proves it, jump cues are too easy and have to go.
 
The poll is useless, I did not vote at all because while the jump CUE should be banned the jump SHOT should not be. Almost noone thinks the jump SHOT should be banned when using the normal shooting cue and this poll is thus meaningless to the discussion now at hand.

246 people voted. You didn't. So that makes it meaningless? OK.

I can NOW see that there could have been more voting options to cover the preferred variations of some. But how do I foresee everyone's preferred variation? :(

Also, if I put up a second EXPANDED poll I'll have to put up with the carping about "ANOTHER jump poll". Can't win.

If jump shots are OK what's wrong with a jump cue that allows an acceptable shot to be better executed? That variation doesn't make any sense to me.
 
The jumper takes away from safety aspects, but does add to the excitement of the game. My opinion is that things should be left as is. Let each tour director decide what he wants to do, and let the players be ready for various rule sets.

As for kicking vs. jumping, to me theres no contest. Jumping might come easier for those with a quicker type of draw stroke, but it's not easy. Kicking is way harder IMHO, diamond system knowledge or not.
 
246 people voted. You didn't. So that makes it meaningless? OK.

I can NOW see that there could have been more voting options to cover the preferred variations of some. But how do I foresee everyone's preferred variation? :(

Also, if I put up a second EXPANDED poll I'll have to put up with the carping about "ANOTHER jump poll". Can't win.

If jump shots are OK what's wrong with a jump cue that allows an acceptable shot to be better executed? That variation doesn't make any sense to me.

Probably because most guys can only jump half a ball or less with a regular cue(myself included). Its really hard to get height with a regular cue.
 
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Quite often, most the people who repeatedly opine how jump shots require no skill, or are too easy - themselves cannot jump a ball or can't jump very well. They think getting over an obstructing ball is all there is to it. They grab a jump cue, get over an obstacle and they've got it all figured out. How about making the shot with a reasonable degree of confidence? How about playing position with a jump shot? At the higher level, going for a jump shot and missing usually results in losing the rack unless you luck a safe. They speak of the jump shot as if it is an automatic, or a given. Pull out the magic jump stick and all is well. I think these people have a psychological aversion to the jump cue because they were the victims of well executed jump shot at one time and they allow their hysteria to get in the way of the facts. For example, only remembering the times opponents make the ball against them - rather than all the times they miss or foul....


Jump shots are an important part of the game for the simple reason that they punish garbage safeties. Safety play is better because of the jump shot.


I hear all this whining and complaining about kicking and safeties. What nonsense. Most of the time, the person at the table does not execute some difficult or elaborate safety involving incredible skill or kicks. However, the person stuck with the safe is the one who has to come up with some insane kick or sometimes there is no kick. Should we concede that against some shots, there is 0% chance at all? The game is better when there is always a chance or an option.


The point is, the anti-jump shot crowd wants to make it seem as if all their hard work is being bypassed and avoided because players can "easily" jump out of it.


It's nonsense. The reality is, many safeties are fairly effortless. Players bumping balls or rolling them to a safe area. More safety play is effortless or skill-less than jump shots that are allegedly effortless or skill-less.

Without the jump shot, large areas of the table become suitable for a safety. Where's the skill in that? Oh, that's right...they want to be able to putt the cueball and play a skill-less area position safety and be rewarded for it.



Let's not forget about one angle few ever want to touch on, but I'll go there because I don't pull my punches. There's the ENVY factor. I don't know about you guys here on this board, but in my personal experience in pool rooms, almost always - the anti-jump shot people and whiners are the geezers who can't jump, and many weaker league level players.

All this anti-jump shot talk can be equated to "it's not fair you possess another skill" ...

To put it in the proper perspective, replace "jump-shot" with DRAW. We should ban the draw show! It's an unfair advantage for better players...


As for the destruction of the cloth or equipment. That is ignorance. I'm sure many players destroy cloth trying to execute jump shots. No argument there. But how is this any different than the damage done to cloth by improperly executed shots of any kind? I've seen players miscue so badly and sharply on a draw shot, they scrape and thus break threads in the Simonis. Again, let's ban the draw shot! :rolleyes:

I execute jump shots and there is zero damage to the cloth. No burn marks, no divots. No problems. It's technique, not power. The CB weighs 5.5-6.0 oz. It can be hit relatively lightly and still get full ball height. Therefore, it is wrong to say jump shots damage the table, because there is nothing inherently damaging about a properly executed jump shot. It certainly does no more damage than a break shot - which burns the cloth and does create pits over time. Should the break be limited to 10mph or less? How about we only play 14.1 and ban jump shots so we can preserve the cloth.


Finally, there is nothing automatic, automatic or assisted in a jump shot with a jump cue. You have to bridge, stroke and hit the CB which all requires coordination, speed control, accuracy and everything else that goes into cueing any shot. The anti-jump shot people make it seem as if it's some kind of device that makes the shot happen. The reply to this is "well then, just jump with a full size cue" ...sure. Then at the same time, why use a mechanical bridge? Just shoot lefty, or reach, or bridge on the cue's forearm? Why use baby powder or shooting gloves to have a smoother stroke? Why even use chalk? Chalk is too easy. Makes hitting the CB off center too easy. Ban it.


There's a difference between automation and something which helps facilitate the shot. All a jump cue does, is allow you to get a better angle when stroking downward because a full size cue gets in the way of your arm and upper body.
 
I think jump cue use should be restricted. It should never be used in 14.1 or 1hole (by rule). I have no problem with its use in barbox 8ball or any rotation game.
I think jumping with the CB control necessary for short-shape games like 14.1 and 1 pocket is harder, not easier, so I'd allow it (with the restrictions mentioned below) and hope my opponent tries it often.

My only stipulation for rotation games would be, you should only be allowed to begin your inning with a jump cue and later switch to your shooting cue, not the other way around. That way, you can jump out of your opponent's safeties but not your own position errors.
I like the first-shot-only idea, but I'd also disallow jump cues.

Jumping only allowed:
1. if room/table owner allows it
2. on the first shot of each inning
3. with playing cue only

That unfortunately penalizes players with low-squirt cues, which are notorious for jumping like white boys (I know mine does). Life is a trade.

pj
chgo
 
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It's still a jump shot.

Is your poll really supposed to be about banning jump shots, and not jump cues? I could see some not liking the jump cue, but not the jump shot itself. Do you mean an illegal scoop jump you might see at a bar? (Sorry, I only got half way through all the posts.)
 
Did you ever watch his CTE video? He missed heaps of pretty simple shots by a diamond at times and if anything hurt CTE. He must have learned the benefits of editting out all those misses.

Mind you, if he does nothing but make all of the jumps it is not exactly winning the arguement. JB is NOT a great player, everyone knows this, but he is going to make a video proving he can play phenomenal shots with a jump cue and get out of all sorts of trouble, is that not the whole freaking point people are using AGAINST jump cues, they let people like JB compete despite his limited skill at the game of pool.

Might as well put out a video uneditted missing tons of jump shots and proving how tough a jump cue is to master, because if JB puts out a video of him making tons of tough escapes and jump shots spinning around the table after making the pot with shape and all I think that proves it, jump cues are too easy and have to go.

Are you truly the densest object on Earth? When I do a video there is a goal. When it's a video to show a particular method then I leave it unedited because I am showing that I am STUDENT of the technique not a TEACHER of it. WHY? WHY WHY WHY do you have to act like an asshole about this? Why? Is there any NEED to be a jerk?

Alright then you ponder that question while I address the goal of an EDITED video that would show SUCCESSFUL jump shots. The reason for that is because it's important to highlight what is POSSIBLE when using a jump cue. To show the shots that CAN be achieved with practice. It is not to show MY PARTICULAR percentage rates with any particular shot. The unedited version would be long and rambling because I do not intend to script it or practice it. I intend to do it quickly in about an hour at most because that's about all the time I have to give to the subject.

And maybe after an hour of me shooting jump shots the editor can come up with a tight five minute video showing off the shots.
 
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