My little post which simply stated facts on the matter with no personal attacks is nothing compared to that little tirade. Your the one that in debates inevtiably always starts asking people to gamble for thousands of dollars on this and that when trying to somehow prove your point. When you do that you are opening yourself up and your skills to comments such as I made.
You should ask yourself this JB, why do "you" constantly end up in arguements with so many people on this forum and end up forcing the mods to give you your "time outs" while so few other people on this forum ever seem to get into personal arguements that go totally out of control like you do? I have debated a ton of things with a ton of people on this forum and I have read heaps of debates on various subject between other people and you John are one of the few people on this forum that seems to be unable to debate stuff and have the discussion remain civil, with me, or countless other people... pretty much anyone who might disagree with you in fact.
Stop with the "oh yeah, well I think you suck, wanna bet a thousand dollars with me!!!" attitude every time a debate is not going how you want it and you might find discussions remain alot more civil and constructive instead of becomming a destructive mess like so many of the threads you take part in end up becomming.
oops 34% I can only imagine you sitting there sweating each percentage point. Guess what? If 995 of the votes were for banning the jump shot/jump cue it still wouldn't happen.
Why? Because this topic has been covered by the powers that be already and the rules are clear.
"We" won. Get over it.
The funny part is that you have no clue about what is inside people's heads. Before I started selling jump cues I was ambivalent about them, live with them live without them, didn't matte to me. I thought that they were gimmicky, especially the 15mm rods with joint-sized hunks of phenolic on them. You could jump a bus with those but had very little control.
For several years I would take about 5 jump cues to the shows on behalf of my friend Franz Hauber. Franz had started dabbling in cues and made his own version of the Bertram jump cue. He would give me 3-5 each show to try and sell for him. At the shows I would simply display them in a corner and IF someone were to ask I would say, "It's a jump cue".
They would say, "how good is it?", I would say "I don't know, take it and try it and send them out of the booth with one." They would come back and either buy it or not and I didn't care.
Then the opportunity came up to manufacture them in bulk and I thought I should take a closer look at them. Franz gave us the specs and we compensated him with 100 cues. Thus the Bunjee was born.
Since I would have to rent a table and have a place for people to try them I figured I should learn to use it. So I spent about a week practicing hard on my Lehmacher table in Ilshofen Germany prior to the show. I learned many different strokes and became decent enough to demonstrate it. I was not an expert but at least I would be good enough to show it in action.
Then something awesome happened.
At the show people were amazed. Crowds gathered and we had a really great dynamic between all of us pool players who were learning together. I had a constant flow of people trying new things and challenging themselves. Everyone got into it and we would set up different shots and see who could figure it out first. I devised a simple five shot routine from easy to hard to demonstrate the cue and get people used to the range.
In that first month at the BCA and VNEA tournaments in Vegas I had one of the best times in my life interacting with enthusiastic pool players. I had lifelong players tell me how excited they were to be learning a new skill.
I had people with disabilities tell me that the jump shot was off limits to them because they couldn't get the regular cue into position but with the jump cue they could use the dart stroke and were not disadvantaged anymore.
I had players of all skill levels heaping praise on the cue and practicing their new skills every chance they got. At some points I had up to four people practicing on my table at one time.
So you can denigrate all this all you want to but you can't erase the feelings people have when they ENJOY playing. The jump cue has NO DOWNSIDE in this respect. People ENJOY using it, they enjoy having the ability to perform jump shots and some people enjoy it so much that they even practice a lot to become very very very good at it.
No matter how much you try to put them down you won't get anywhere. In the interim I became a fan of the cue because I have had a wonderful time learning all about it, learning how to teach it, learning from others, collaborating on shots.
I even was able to teach a shot to Mike Massey that he didn't know. How many people on Earth can say that?
But here is the best part.
My friend Chris McDaniel is a good player A speed player. Much better than me. Where I have to practice hard to learn shots he is able to get them much faster and much better than me.
So one day he decides that he wants to learn to jump about six feet INTO a six inch target. I need to diagram this:
So he starts out just figuring out the power and kill-spin (reverse) that he needs to be able to just get over the object ball at this distance and keep the cueball on the table. The first 20 shots are a massacre with the cueball flying off the table and general danger for anyone in the vicinity. Of course he decides to practice this at the booth when it's slow but still in full view of everyone walking by.
Then he starts to dial it in and the cue ball is staying on the table. Then he adds a ball hanging in the corner and is able to make this ball easily. So he starts backing up the object ball closer and closer to the blocker. Again balls are flying off the table. But he starts really zeroing in on it until he is able to land the cueball into a six inch window from six feet away and hold the cueball for a legal hit. One of the most incredible shots you will ever see in your life if you are lucky enough to see it.
So now the best part - Chris has been practicing this for most of the day and here comes Buddy Hall. I say to Chris, look it's Buddy. Chris says I am going to show him my shot. I was like please don't - thinking it was going to be ridiculous when the cueball goes off the table and down the hall. Chris times it to shoot it just as Buddy is walking up to the booth and checking out what's happening.
CHRIS NAILS IT right in front of Buddy. NAILS IT.
Buddy says, "That is some shot". Then he stops to chat and decides to try out the cue.
Buddy sets up a few shots and declares, "ok, now I know how it deflects" Then he proceeds to put on a show that was amazing.
When Buddy hit the jump shot with the jump cue you wouldn't hardly hear the hit. He has such a soft touch but with just the right amount of power and stroke. He went through a bunch of shots to see what kind of control he could get but the best were these two:
Here he wants to make the ball and get shape on the nine. So for the first one he decided to draw the ball one rail for shape. Then he decided to draw two rails for shape. THEN he decides to FOLLOW three rails for shape. And it looked like he wasn't even using a jump cue how sweetly the ball came around.
When Buddy strokes and hits the ball it's like a violinist playing the sweetest softest notes. Compared to me when I hit the ball it's like a guy swinging a sledgehammer at a pebble.
So you will never take these memories away from me. And the best part is that they are shared memories. Many people on this forum have seen and participated in the stories I tell. They don't deal in emotionally charged nonsense, but instead in factual experience.
The jump shot is a great shot. The jump cue makes it even better.
My little post which simply stated facts on the matter with no personal attacks is nothing compared to that little tirade. Your the one that in debates inevtiably always starts asking people to gamble for thousands of dollars on this and that when trying to somehow prove your point. When you do that you are opening yourself up and your skills to comments such as I made.
You didn't state facts. You stated your INTERPRETATION of what you saw. The only FACT is that you MISSTATED the intention of the videos and completely missed the purpose of them. IF I had wanted to put any particular technique in the "BEST LIGHT" then I would have edited the videos. BUT my intention was to show my progression as a STUDENT of the technique for the BENEFIT of anyone else who was interested in exploring the technique. That you got it all wrong and focused on the misses only shows that you are prejudiced and clearly not enough of a student to be open to learning.
You should ask yourself this JB, why do "you" constantly end up in arguements with so many people on this forum and end up forcing the mods to give you your "time outs" while so few other people on this forum ever seem to get into personal arguements that go totally out of control like you do?
Because I don't play nice with people like you who delight in constantly making false statements about subjects I am well versed in. When you or people like you do this the first time then I am nice and polite while I correct your statements. Then you inevitably try to make it personal and when you do I eviscerate you. Maybe that's a bit harsh but it's who I am. I don't tolerate trolls or trolling behavior. So if you don't want to be slapped down don't act like a troll.
I have debated a ton of things with a ton of people on this forum and I have read heaps of debates on various subject between other people and you John are one of the few people on this forum that seems to be unable to debate stuff and have the discussion remain civil, with me, or countless other people... pretty much anyone who might disagree with you in fact.
Really? Would you care to go back through just this thread and pick out the uncivil and cutting remarks you have made about jump cues and the people who use them? Shall we point out the baseless and factless comments you have made? Is this your idea of how to conduct a civil discussion?
Stop with the "oh yeah, well I think you suck, wanna bet a thousand dollars with me!!!" attitude every time a debate is not going how you want it and you might find discussions remain alot more civil and constructive instead of becomming a destructive mess like so many of the threads you take part in end up becomming.
See, now you are putting words in my mouth. I have never said "you suck, nor implied it."
I said IF you are convinced of your position then are you willing to BET on it. I am convinced of MY position enough to bet on it. Has NOTHING at all to with your skill level.
If you make a statement about a particular aspect of the game then it's easy enough to prove or disprove on the table.
You say jumping with jump cues is "bloody easy". Ok, then if it's "bloody easy" then show the world how easily you can perform the shots that I will do. Either it's "bloody easy" or it's not. If what you say is true then any half-decent player on this forum SHOULD be able to duplicate my shots in two tries at most wouldn't you agree?
Instead of all the name-calling, telling jump cue users that they suck at other aspects of the game as YOU have done in this thread, why not simply man-up and PROVE your point on the table?
What's bloody easy is to come one here and spout nonsensical and untrue blather about a subject. What's bloody hard is to back it up on the table.
UNLESS you actually KNOW what you are talking about BECAUSE you have REAL experience with it. THEN backing it up IS bloody easy.
Are you truly the densest object on Earth? When I do a video there is a goal. When it's a video to show a particular method then I leave it unedited because I am showing that I am STUDENT of the technique not a TEACHER of it. WHY? WHY WHY WHY do you have to act like an asshole about this? Why? Is there any NEED to be a jerk?
Alright then you ponder that question while I address the goal of an EDITED video that would show SUCCESSFUL jump shots. The reason for that is because it's important to highlight what is POSSIBLE when using a jump cue. To show the shots that CAN be achieved with practice. It is not to show MY PARTICULAR percentage rates with any particular shot. The unedited version would be long and rambling because I do not intend to script it or practice it. I intend to do it quickly in about an hour at most because that's about all the time I have to give to the subject.
And maybe after an hour of me shooting jump shots the editor can come up with a tight five minute video showing off the shots.
I think you should stop posting in this thread, and put the hours upon hours you save into making a nice video that people could reference forever. One which notes all your points. And thanks in advance if you do it
I think you should stop posting in this thread, and put the hours upon hours you save into making a nice video that people could reference forever. One which notes all your points. And thanks in advance if you do it
I will. The issue is time and effort. It's not easy to make a video. I have been trying for a year to learn how to film and edit but not having the time to really get into it makes it hard.
Yesterday I did an experiment at lunch to prove some of the points using my staff. They love to play but none of them would ever be mistaken for being a pool player. So I did 20 minutes and proved the points perfectly but then we saw that the damn camera wasn't recording. So the moment was ruined BECAUSE now my employee had already figured out how to kick balls. So by doing it again the results would be skewed. aaarrggh!!!
Anyway I did get another 30 minutes so I might upload that and see what comes of it.
I hope someone else will take up my offer to let them edit a video that I can make of me doing shots.
I am best if I can just let the camera run and not worry about it. Then I get into a rhythm and can really show off some good stuff.
Is your poll really supposed to be about banning jump shots, and not jump cues? I could see some not liking the jump cue, but not the jump shot itself. Do you mean an illegal scoop jump you might see at a bar? (Sorry, I only got half way through all the posts.)
You say jumping with jump cues is "bloody easy". Ok, then if it's "bloody easy" then show the world how easily you can perform the shots that I will do. Either it's "bloody easy" or it's not. If what you say is true then any half-decent player on this forum SHOULD be able to duplicate my shots in two tries at most wouldn't you agree?
Holy cow, JB. I'm not going to reply to your monumental post with the gigantic illustrations. It takes half an hour to get a response window.
I'll make it simple- when a world class player pulls out a jump cue it's an absolute turn-off for me.
Why anyone would find it exciting to watch someone send the cueball flying off the table so often just so they can see the few times when they actually accomplish what they were trying to do with their dopey jump shot is a mystery to me. Considering the high percentage of loss of control of the cueball, and, in fact, the whole table pattern, too, there's a very obvious question that needs to be answered honestly- when they do pocket the ball was it by accident? Oh, yeah, I know- you make almost all of yours.
Holy cow, JB. I'm not going to reply to your monumental post with the gigantic illustrations. It takes half an hour to get a response window.
I'll make it simple- when a world class player pulls out a jump cue it's an absolute turn-off for me.
Why anyone would find it exciting to watch someone send the cueball flying off the table so often just so they can see the few times when they actually accomplish what they were trying to do with their dopey jump shot is a mystery to me. Considering the high percentage of loss of control of the cueball, and, in fact, the whole table pattern, too, there's a very obvious question that needs to be answered honestly- when they do pocket the ball was it by accident? Oh, yeah, I know- you make almost all of yours.
Ok. You are allowed to not like something. What you are not allowed to do is invent a bunch of fallacies to support your distaste.
What a person is trying to accomplish is to get a good hit and control the cueball. If they lose control of the cueball then it is ONLY because of a lack of skill. If they make the ball then it's because they have the skill.
Of course sometimes when a player is focused on just getting over the ball then making it is a bonus but for the most part jumpers who develop their skill rarely lose the cueball. Still even for accomplished jumpers making the ball is not a high percentage shot. But it's shot.
When someone pockets a ball using a kick shot was it also by accident if you compare true percentages? I submit that in most cases the intention is to hit the ball and making it is a bonus, hanging balls excepted.
Anyway, you don't have to put people down just because they like a part of the game that you don't. You don't have to call them fools, bangers, circus acts, or whatever sort of insults feel good to bolster your opinion.
Buckminster Fuller, the famous designer, once said that when he solves a problem if the solution is not elegant then the problem is not solved. I agree that jump cues used badly are hard on the eyes and ears. Used well though, as people like Buddy Hall can do, they are an elegant solution.
No, you read it wrong. That statement has to do with a contest. The assertion is that jumping with a jump cue is "bloody easy". So if true then any decent player should not require any practice and should be able to hold their own with me in a jump shot contest.
All you have to do is admit that jumping with a jump cue is a skill shot. It is. How well it's done is a reflection of the skill level of the shooter.
I feel that you clearly understand that there are plenty of jump shots which cannot reasonably be expected to be made easily without some degree of practice. If you understand that then simply acknowledge it.
I don't like asparagus but I am not going to deny that it's healthy food.
Ok. You are allowed to not like something. What you are not allowed to do is invent a bunch of fallacies to support your distaste.
What a person is trying to accomplish is to get a good hit and control the cueball. If they lose control of the cueball then it is ONLY because of a lack of skill. If they make the ball then it's because they have the skill.
Of course sometimes when a player is focused on just getting over the ball then making it is a bonus but for the most part jumpers who develop their skill rarely lose the cueball. Still even for accomplished jumpers making the ball is not a high percentage shot. But it's shot.
I say that you're promoting fallacies. We've all seen plenty of top level players described by a commentator as highly skilled jump shot artists hit the OB then watch the CB careen off the table while half the table pattern is rearranged in a random manner.
We've also seen the same where the OB is missed completely with the same results and also where the OB is hit, misses the pocket by twelve inches and half the table pattern is rearranged in a random manner.
When someone pockets a ball using a kick shot was it also by accident if you compare true percentages? I submit that in most cases the intention is to hit the ball and making it is a bonus, hanging balls excepted.
A kick is obviously a lower percentage shot than an open shot but, once again, that isn't the point. Reread above my comments that include the words "careen", "off the table", and "random"
Anyway, you don't have to put people down just because they like a part of the game that you don't. You don't have to call them fools, bangers, circus acts, or whatever sort of insults feel good to bolster your opinion.
You would be hard pressed to point out anywhere in this thread or anywhere else in relation to jump shots or jump cues where I referred to anyone as a "fool" or a "banger". The reason is because I never did. You may be having an internal struggle with self-perception.
I have used the term "circus act" because jump shots look a lot like circus tricks to me and I don't feel the least bit guilty about describing them as what they look like. Putting down a shot or industry product you seem to have made a lot of money on and maybe still are is not equivalent to putting you down personally.
What is your point in offering a gaff challenge where people play your custom designed jump cue "trick shots" that you have practiced and without a doubt will be practicing like crazy the week before the actual bet to make sure you have all of those specific shots down pat.
What you offer is like a trick shot person offering a challenge match where they play only THEIR trick shots that they have practiced extensively against someone else for cash, who is going to do that? Mike Massey would not be stupid enough to do that, you do know why they ALTERNATE shooting each players trick shots in those competitions right?
You want to take a general shot that is claimed to be easy, and think that you playing specific jump cue jump shots that only you have practiced and that you dreamed up better then someone else means anything at all? Are you going to change the cloth on the table so that the player you bet against does not see the 1000 ball marks in the exact setup location for each of those shots that show your practice sessions on those exact shots for the last week so that you have only those specific shots down pat so you don't lose face?
That is a total gaff game and if you know anything about gambling then you know it, and unfortunately for you so do alot of other people on here.
Now it's a gaff? Sorry but you said jumping is bloody easy. So IF it's bloody easy then where is the problem?
You mean it's a gaff if I PRACTICED a bunch of shots until I got really good at them and then challenged someone who had not practiced those shots to a contest?
Why should the opponent need any practice if it's so bloody easy?
Let me be more clear for you. I will be happy to have a contest with you on any pool table in the world. We can alternate shots. I confident that I can perform any jump shot that you can come up and equally confident that you fail to perform most of mine.
Why?
Because I have practiced just about every jump shot known. I doubt that you can show me any shot I haven't already seen and done.
I understand gambling just fine. You want to say that jumping is bloody easy but you don't want to bet on it. If you were convinced of your position then you would be willing to back it up. You're not and you aren't.
All that did is prove to me you cannot kick. Kicking balls at a high level is not about hitting shots in a straight line and using diamond systems. The people who can REALLY kick at a high level know how various side spins affect the shots off each individual rail, they know what speed of the shot will do to affect the angle, they know how playing high english or drawing the ball into the rail affects the angle coming off the rails. Learning how to hit a straight kick using the diamond system is easy, learning how to master the kicking game with all of the spins, multi rail, hitting balls that actually "don't" have a straight path to hit the ball but being able to bend the cueball to avoid the balls and hit the ball anyways, that stuff is what makes a kicker truly great.
Your quote above proves you have kicking knowledge at the most basic level, or you were simply lying and trying to diminish the true intricasies of kicking to further your arguement with falsehoods... which is it JB?
Kicking at it's most basic is simply hitting the cueball into the rail in a straight line at the right spot. ANY person who can hit the ball in a straight line can figure out kick shots given enough tries with no instruction. They will learn the intricacies as they continue to shoot.
But hand the same rank beginner a jump cue and no instruction at all and tell them to make a simple jump shot and they will spend MUCH MORE time trying to make the cueball jump.
I will bet everything I have ever owned that on average the rank beginner learns to kick semi-proficiently well before they learn to jump with a jump cue if left entirely on their own with NO coaching, no examples, no systems.
The only falsehood is your false comparisons. Jumping with and without a jump cue is a skill that must be practiced. Kicking is a skill that must be practiced. Two SEPARATE aspects of the game.
I say that you're promoting fallacies. We've all seen plenty of top level players described by a commentator as highly skilled jump shot artists hit the OB then watch the CB careen off the table while half the table pattern is rearranged in a random manner.
Examples? I have watched plenty of matches and what you describe in the PROFESSIONAL contests is the rare exception. Show us the links to the videos which back up your claim of "plenty" of top level players failing. Especially players described as highly skilled jump shot artists. I will pay you $100 if you come up with just five examples where the player is said to be highly skilled at jumping and then he totally blows the shot.
We've also seen the same where the OB is missed completely with the same results and also where the OB is hit, misses the pocket by twelve inches and half the table pattern is rearranged in a random manner.
Examples? WE have not been watching the same matches clearly.
A kick is obviously a lower percentage shot than an open shot but, once again, that isn't the point. Reread above my comments that include the words "careen", "off the table", and "random"
Read my responses where I ask you to provide proof.
You would be hard pressed to point out anywhere in this thread or anywhere else in relation to jump shots or jump cues where I referred to anyone as a "fool" or a "banger". The reason is because I never did. You may be having an internal struggle with self-perception.
You're right. You didn't specifically call jump cue users fools or bangers.
I have used the term "circus act" because jump shots look a lot like circus tricks to me and I don't feel the least bit guilty about describing them as what they look like. Putting down a shot or industry product you seem to have made a lot of money on and maybe still are is not equivalent to putting you down personally.
Which is your opinion. Unfortunately it doesn't mesh with reality. I respectfully ask you to back up your claims above. Use YouTube or any other video sources and show us proof of your claims.
I contend that the VAST majority of jump shots by professional players are controlled and executed properly. But I am interested in seeing your proof and will gladly pay you for it if you can provide it as stipulated using your claims.
Jumping with a full length cue is fine, but there's an advantage given to taller players or players with longer fingers. The shorter jump cue somewhat equalizes that.
What about limiting the number of times a player can use a short jump cue in a tournament? I've seen InsidePOOLmag's video on youtube between Nevel and Strickland where they were allowed 2 jumps with a short cue, and no limit on jumping with a full cue.
Personally I think it should be up to the tournament directors. When Filipino players came to the US, they pretty much took the art of kicking and safety play to a new level. I see the jump cue as something else to take the game to another level.
to bring up something that is somewhat on a same level in safety play. If a person can not jump because a player has put them in jail so bad, and they can not possibly hit the object ball by kicking because all of the kicking paths are blocked, is it really fair of them to tie up 2-3 balls on purpose?, and then give up ball in hand?
So, the question becomes, if you are going to restrict shots, jumping and tieing up balls, should a player be 'forced' to try to kick at the object ball?
My answer would be no, we should not force players to one type of shot, because it limits the game and imagination.
Imagine, if you will, that if certain moves on a chess board were made, that a player only had the option to Castle, instead of making only 1 of 4 possible moves? Would that be fair?
I am a roll the dice and see where they land type of guy. Even if Pool, I am not really a cherry picking type of guy, if I don't like the table as it lays, I try to change it to where I will like it better.
Examples? I have watched plenty of matches and what you describe in the PROFESSIONAL contests is the rare exception. Show us the links to the videos which back up your claim of "plenty" of top level players failing. Especially players described as highly skilled jump shot artists. I will pay you $100 if you come up with just five examples where the player is said to be highly skilled at jumping and then he totally blows the shot.
There's an obvious bias to contend with. No one posts videos of missed jump shots on YouTube, only the successful ones. I'm not going to watch every match I've ever seen again to locate the crappy jump shots but it would be a good idea if someone started cataloguing them for their humor value.
