Please offer your opinions on cue design theft

[JAMSGOLF]

Please give me the support other refuse to, and add something to the original thread, whether you agree with me or not your comments are more than welcome.

Thanks for your consideration.

Here ya go...

Okay…here’s my take on the whole “design theft” issue.

There is one and only one Mona Lisa. It’s an original. (It is worth millions…if not more.)
There are probably a very small handful of paintings that could very easily pass as the original done by artists who would be considered “masters”. (Ranging into the $10,000’s or more…I’m guessing.)
There are probably thousands of very good renditions done by skilled artists. (Ranging in price from $100’s to $1000’s…depending on WHO painted them.)
There are hundreds of thousands of “prints” of the Mona Lisa. (Can be had for $20).

Are the paintings and prints copies? Yes, there’s no denying that. Is it thievery to paint or in any fashion replicate the Mona Lisa? Not in my opinion… I don’t believe it becomes “theft” until the person signs the painting Leonardo DaVinci and tries to pass it off as the “original”.

If I write the words “Clint Eastwood” and someone else writes the words “Old West Action”, should I be screaming plagiarism? I mean for gosh sake, that person used the same exact letters I did to create their phrase (it’s an anagram)! No, I shouldn’t. However, if I write a short story and someone copies the story verbatim, is it plagiarism then? Yes…it is! When words are used and copied verbatim, there is no way the person copying them can put their own “twist” into the words (yes, one could print and the other could write in cursive…stay with me).

There are 26 letters in the English alphabet. Someone can take those 26 letters and arrange those letters into a series of words, sentences and paragraphs and write a book about Willie Mosconi and have something “original”. Someone else can take those same 26 letters and arrange them into a different series of words, sentences and paragraphs and write a different book about Willie Mosconi. If both books contain several of the same stories, is one “copying” the other or is it giving two different perspectives of the same situation?

There are two basic “artistic” abilities when it comes to making cues…the design and the playability…how a cue plays and how it looks. The true “master cuemakers” are/were able to achieve both…in most cases!

You can have cues that are “plain janes” that have the “best hit ever”!
You can have cues that are pure artistic “originals” that play like absolute crap!
You can have cues that possess both playability and artistic prowess!

Not every cuemaker has the “creativity” of an artist when it comes to the design of their cues…but they can make one hell of a playing cue…so, these cuemakers are either resigned to making “plain janes” their entire career or they need to use designs that are already out there…and put their own name on their version of that design. Will it look the same as the original? Pretty close sometimes. Will it “play” the same as the original? Highly doubtful…sometimes worse…sometimes better!

So, I guess I look at it this way…
If a person copies a story word for word, it’s thievery because there is no way to put your own “spin” on what you’ve just done even if you put your name at the end of the story! If someone takes a story and tells it from a different perspective, then they’ve put their own “spin” on the story…they’ve changed something about the “original”...thus, I do not believe it is thievery.

That’s how I view this subject. The materials used to build the cue are the letters and words. The design of the cue is the “story”. The playability of the cue is each cuemaker’s individual perspective of the “story” – each one written slightly differently…

It’s only “thievery” if the person building the copy/tribute/replica tries to pass it off as the original by not signing their own name, but rather the name of the original cuemaker…

Anyway…just some late night ramblings…

Jason

 

[manwon]

Here ya go...

Okay…here’s my take on the whole “design theft” issue.

There is one and only one Mona Lisa. It’s an original. (It is worth millions…if not more.)
There are probably a very small handful of paintings that could very easily pass as the original done by artists who would be considered “masters”. (Ranging into the $10,000’s or more…I’m guessing.)
There are probably thousands of very good renditions done by skilled artists. (Ranging in price from $100’s to $1000’s…depending on WHO painted them.)
There are hundreds of thousands of “prints” of the Mona Lisa. (Can be had for $20).

Are the paintings and prints copies? Yes, there’s no denying that. Is it thievery to paint or in any fashion replicate the Mona Lisa? Not in my opinion… I don’t believe it becomes “theft” until the person signs the painting Leonardo DaVinci and tries to pass it off as the “original”.

If I write the words “Clint Eastwood” and someone else writes the words “Old West Action”, should I be screaming plagiarism? I mean for gosh sake, that person used the same exact letters I did to create their phrase (it’s an anagram)! No, I shouldn’t. However, if I write a short story and someone copies the story verbatim, is it plagiarism then? Yes…it is! When words are used and copied verbatim, there is no way the person copying them can put their own “twist” into the words (yes, one could print and the other could write in cursive…stay with me).

There are 26 letters in the English alphabet. Someone can take those 26 letters and arrange those letters into a series of words, sentences and paragraphs and write a book about Willie Mosconi and have something “original”. Someone else can take those same 26 letters and arrange them into a different series of words, sentences and paragraphs and write a different book about Willie Mosconi. If both books contain several of the same stories, is one “copying” the other or is it giving two different perspectives of the same situation?

There are two basic “artistic” abilities when it comes to making cues…the design and the playability…how a cue plays and how it looks. The true “master cuemakers” are/were able to achieve both…in most cases!

You can have cues that are “plain janes” that have the “best hit ever”!
You can have cues that are pure artistic “originals” that play like absolute crap!
You can have cues that possess both playability and artistic prowess!

Not every cuemaker has the “creativity” of an artist when it comes to the design of their cues…but they can make one hell of a playing cue…so, these cuemakers are either resigned to making “plain janes” their entire career or they need to use designs that are already out there…and put their own name on their version of that design. Will it look the same as the original? Pretty close sometimes. Will it “play” the same as the original? Highly doubtful…sometimes worse…sometimes better!

So, I guess I look at it this way…
If a person copies a story word for word, it’s thievery because there is no way to put your own “spin” on what you’ve just done even if you put your name at the end of the story! If someone takes a story and tells it from a different perspective, then they’ve put their own “spin” on the story…they’ve changed something about the “original”...thus, I do not believe it is thievery.

That’s how I view this subject. The materials used to build the cue are the letters and words. The design of the cue is the “story”. The playability of the cue is each cuemaker’s individual perspective of the “story” – each one written slightly differently…

It’s only “thievery” if the person building the copy/tribute/replica tries to pass it off as the original by not signing their own name, but rather the name of the original cuemaker…

Anyway…just some late night ramblings…

Jason

Thanks Jason, I understand your thoughts on this subject and I appricate the fact that you posted on topic to this thread,


Thanks very much for your comments.

 

[classiccues]

So you are saying that it is a fact that American labor is priced too high and that American people are lazy?

I don't remember saying that nor do I remember it being a "fact" that I have read anywhere.

However I will be happy to quote your opinion stating that these are facts.

You and playa are just upset that people in China and other countries are knocking off the American Dream. Someone said on here once that it's a war between Capitalism and Communism and Capitalism is winning. This is what your victory looks like.

And by the way, next time you want to throw down the hypocrite label on someone you ought to not employ illegal immigrants in your construction business.

As for the racism, yeah when you assign negative attributes to an entire race then it's racism. Beside that what do you have against eating dogs? It's not like 'China" is sending Wushu Monks dressed in knockoff ninja suits to kidnap your pink toy poodle to serve in China's version of Buffalo Wild Wings, called American Poodle Toes. Ever eat veal? Out in Colorado you can drive by veal farms where the baby cows are kept chained to a dog house so that they can't do anything but stay confined to one very small area, how barbaric.... but all Chinese do not eat dogs which you would know if you spent any time getting your information from some other source than google news.

The thing is Joe that you and playa both spout nonsense that indicates that you feel that America and Americans are SUPERIOR to China and the Chinese. If true then THAT by itself is racist. America as a nation IS SUPERIOR in some things and INFERIOR in others.

But America is not better just because it's America. America, like China, and like every country on the Earth, is a work in progress. It is a collection of people who all HAPPEN to live under one flag and one political system. They don't get to vote out the whole political system each year so they have to live WITH the system that their ancestors put in place with violent means. All of these people are individuals who are each trying to make their way in the world the best way they can. Most are good honest people who don't seek to harm anyone else in any way while they pursue their version of happiness and security. Some are predators who exploit the weakness and ignorance of others. And some are evil and malicious bent on destroying everything that they can.

So what? That is simply called life. The fact that you are an American is simply an accident of fate. That doesn't make you better than any other human being on the planet. Being an American doesn't even make you better than the Chinese dog about to be killed for dinner. It just makes you luckier.

So you can squander that luck by spending your time putting down whole other races or you can use it to be a force for positive change. That's on you, you were lucky enough to be born into circumstances that give you the opportunity to make that choice easier. Many people around the world live in harsh that conditions you can't even begin to imagine and they still manage to choose to be positive influences on their communities.

What's your excuse?

Don't need an excuse, in my community, I do what I can. Not playa, or myself have ever said anything except buy American and presented a few reasons why, and none of them are racist. You can falslely and inaccurately claim anything you would like but nothing said so far has been racially motivated.

Feeling superior because you live somewhere you feel is special is also not racist. Taking pride in where you are, where you are from is also not racist. Now when you don't have an identity, and you don't have the convictions of "home", and not knowing that feeling, it may seem like everyone that has that might be racist. But that doesn't make it so.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Lower pay in China is a structural issue. I'm sure you know you can't just start paying everyone an US wage.
Pollution is a funny thing. I hope the air quality in China is much better than it is. But I know that the bad air and dirty water is because they're producing goods that help to support the quality of life for people all over the world, including the US. Would your PCs, cell phones, power tools, anything still cost as little as you paid for them if they were not manufactured in China? or somewhere with conditions like China? Probably not. Also, I think there are plenty of evidence that the US as a whole does a lot more to pollute the whole planet than any other country. The US and Europe had it's turn to pollute and go through the industrial age. It doesn't seem fair to criticize others for doing the same.

Religious or not, it's a part of some other culture's/religions norm to eat certain animals. It's not right to criticize based on your own upbringing. By the way, it's not like everybody eat dogs in China, probably a small minority of people I've met. Most actually wouldn't even dream of eating dogs.

Don't hate/snipe at/belittle the Chinese people just because the country they live in. I used to do that years ago. Then I learned during a business trip here that most people I've met are just as kind and hardworking as most people I've met elsewhere. They work hard in conditions and for pay that most US citizens wouldn't accept. For what? Not so they can have the satisfaction for "taking" someone job in the US. But so they can have a chance to provide for themselves and families.

So you can't criticize China for knowing history and then still gowing out and repeating it? There is a huge difference to what th US did in the 1800's and early 1900's and what China is doing now. The difference is they know what the pollution does. We didn't get that memo until later on. The science wasn't there then, but it is now.

Again, it's just pointing things out. I know not everyone there eats dogs, I know that there are hardworking people there. However when you buy Chinese there is a good chance that more of that money goes into the government.. that.. forces those working conditions AND supports the human right violations in general. Since that is more or less the case, why support that?

Boycotting Chinese goods from our view is no different than boycotting furs. Principle applies and JB sounds just like the guy making the fur coats. Again its just what side of the fence you're on.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

So you can't criticize China for knowing history and then still gowing out and repeating it? There is a huge difference to what th US did in the 1800's and early 1900's and what China is doing now. The difference is they know what the pollution does. We didn't get that memo until later on. The science wasn't there then, but it is now.

Again, it's just pointing things out. I know not everyone there eats dogs, I know that there are hardworking people there. However when you buy Chinese there is a good chance that more of that money goes into the government.. that.. forces those working conditions AND supports the human right violations in general. Since that is more or less the case, why support that?

Boycotting Chinese goods from our view is no different than boycotting furs. Principle applies and JB sounds just like the guy making the fur coats. Again its just what side of the fence you're on.

JV

Well, next time you have to govern 1.4 billion people you can make the rules the way you want them to be.

Guess what Joe? Nothing you say or do matters. You are completely insignificant to the way the world works.

I don't know if this is true but I heard that you said on here that you hire illegal immigrants in your construction business. Is that also an example of "buying American" when you won't even pay for American labor? If I am wrong and you have never used illegal immigrants then my apologies and kudos to you for being one of the few in the construction industry that doesn't.

Hell I don't even know if you have a construction business. That you have any sort of business at all would surprise me but if so then tell us all publicly if you have ever used immigrant labor or not.

Like your stance on CDT it's either all in or not. Either you get to be anti-world and boycott goods from all the countries you think are "bad" or you don't get a spot on that soapbox if you ever hired illegal labor. Hell, as far as that goes if you ever paid any of your contractors off the books or took money off the books you committed a criminal offense that undermines the country you claim to love.

So stand up and deny these speculations:

Specifically,

1. Have you, Joe Van Buren, ever hired any labor that you knew or suspected were not in the USA legally? The follow-up question is did you register all your employees for their state and federal taxes and make sure you paid the employer's share for each one?

2. Have you ever done work without providing an invoice to keep it off the books?

3. Have you ever paid anyone for work they did without it being accounted for properly?

As long as you are talking the moral high ground I'd like you to answer those questions publicly for the record.

If you have never done any of those things then by all means take your spot on the podium.

P.S. Roy Malott and I would like to ask you to please return the Chinese made GTF case that was sent to you for review. It was not given to you for you to keep but only for you to evaluate. You have had it more than 2 years now and that's enough time.

 

[JB Cases]

Don't need an excuse, in my community, I do what I can. Not playa, or myself have ever said anything except buy American and presented a few reasons why, and none of them are racist. You can falslely and inaccurately claim anything you would like but nothing said so far has been racially motivated.

Feeling superior because you live somewhere you feel is special is also not racist. Taking pride in where you are, where you are from is also not racist. Now when you don't have an identity, and you don't have the convictions of "home", and not knowing that feeling, it may seem like everyone that has that might be racist. But that doesn't make it so.

JV

Tell us what you do Joe. What specific things are you doing to make your community better?

I am all ears? Why don't you tell us so that others may be inspired to copy you in their communities? I am sure that no one here has anything against Community Improvement Action theft. Tell us all what things you are doing that are working so we can all repeat them - that is to say so that the Americans in America can repeat them because obviously you don't want the Chinese or other foreigners to use your successful Community Improvement projects in their cities and towns.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Don't need an excuse, in my community, I do what I can. Not playa, or myself have ever said anything except buy American and presented a few reasons why, and none of them are racist. You can falslely and inaccurately claim anything you would like but nothing said so far has been racially motivated.

Feeling superior because you live somewhere you feel is special is also not racist. Taking pride in where you are, where you are from is also not racist. Now when you don't have an identity, and you don't have the convictions of "home", and not knowing that feeling, it may seem like everyone that has that might be racist. But that doesn't make it so.

JV

Well stated!!!!!!! If China was more diverse the racism issue wouldn't even be brought up.

 

[classiccues]

Well, next time you have to govern 1.4 billion people you can make the rules the way you want them to be.

Guess what Joe? Nothing you say or do matters. You are completely insignificant to the way the world works.

I don't know if this is true but I heard that you said on here that you hire illegal immigrants in your construction business. Is that also an example of "buying American" when you won't even pay for American labor? If I am wrong and you have never used illegal immigrants then my apologies and kudos to you for being one of the few in the construction industry that doesn't.

Hell I don't even know if you have a construction business. That you have any sort of business at all would surprise me but if so then tell us all publicly if you have ever used immigrant labor or not.

Like your stance on CDT it's either all in or not. Either you get to be anti-world and boycott goods from all the countries you think are "bad" or you don't get a spot on that soapbox if you ever hired illegal labor. Hell, as far as that goes if you ever paid any of your contractors off the books or took money off the books you committed a criminal offense that undermines the country you claim to love.

So stand up and deny these speculations:

Specifically,

1. Have you, Joe Van Buren, ever hired any labor that you knew or suspected were not in the USA legally? The follow-up question is did you register all your employees for their state and federal taxes and make sure you paid the employer's share for each one?

2. Have you ever done work without providing an invoice to keep it off the books?

3. Have you ever paid anyone for work they did without it being accounted for properly?

As long as you are talking the moral high ground I'd like you to answer those questions publicly for the record.

If you have never done any of those things then by all means take your spot on the podium.

P.S. Roy Malott and I would like to ask you to please return the Chinese made GTF case that was sent to you for review. It was not given to you for you to keep but only for you to evaluate. You have had it more than 2 years now and that's enough time.

Since you want to play questions and answers....

Since you have been involved in casemaking, how come all the factories you helped set up, or set up, have ben in countries that exploit their labor force? Because John, that is what you are, an exploiter. YOU who won't pay rates of civilized countries have done nothing short of exploit the human race for profit.

Then you have the audacity to call someone else racist.

JV

BTW the case imploded because of the tight fit so I let me dog chew on it and he evntually died because of the tainted glue and dye/finish.

You lost another bet, you're such a goon.. lol

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Is there a social group called "We Just Hate Each Other"? If there's not, should someone create it for this kind of stuff?

I actually have the utmost respect for the input that the three of you guys have in this forum...how about returning that respect to Craig, his thread and those of us who are interested in the topic of cue design theft? If you guys want to air your "personal" grudge match publicly...fine...just do it in the appropriate place.

It's no different than a couple of drunk guys starting a fight in a bar. If they have respect for the bar owner, they'll take it outside...if they don't have respect for the bar owner (or the other patrons), they'll keep the fight inside and the entire bar will get destroyed!

Be respectful...Take your fight "outside" boys...

 

[JB Cases]

Since you want to play questions and answers....

Since you have been involved in casemaking, how come all the factories you helped set up, or set up, have ben in countries that exploit their labor force? Because John, that is what you are, an exploiter. YOU who won't pay rates of civilized countries have done nothing short of exploit the human race for profit.

Then you have the audacity to call someone else racist.

JV

BTW the case imploded because of the tight fit so I let me dog chew on it and he evntually died because of the tainted glue and dye/finish.

You lost another bet, you're such a goon.. lol

So you don't want to deny that you hire illegal immigrants to work for you in your construction company?

I will be happy to lay my cards on the table Joe. Are you?

Your accusations are false and I will be happy to answer every question you have in detail after you answer mine.

Starting from 1991 my case making has been done in, Germany, Turkey, the Czech Republic, Taiwan, America and now China. I will let you look up the political systems of each of those countries.

Regarding the case I assume then that you are saying it is your intention to pay for it since you allowed your dog to destroy it rather than return it?

You sound upset. Don't be. We are just trying to establish that you are NOT a hypocrite so that those who wish to can get behind your words with confidence. After all it's painful when you follow someone and they turn out to be acting in direct opposition to the values they claim to hold.

This isn't about China Joe. It's about you. Only about you.

 

[JB Cases]

Well stated!!!!!!! If China was more diverse the racism issue wouldn't even be brought up.

Tell us everything you know about China? Statements like this make me think you know next to nothing other than how to spell China.

 

[JB Cases]

Is there a social group called "We Just Hate Each Other"? If there's not, should someone create it for this kind of stuff?

I actually have the utmost respect for the input that the three of you guys have in this forum...how about returning that respect to Craig, his thread and those of us who are interested in the topic of cue design theft? If you guys want to air your "personal" grudge match publicly...fine...just do it in the appropriate place.

It's no different than a couple of drunk guys starting a fight in a bar. If they have respect for the bar owner, they'll take it outside...if they don't have respect for the bar owner (or the other patrons), they'll keep the fight inside and the entire bar will get destroyed!

Be respectful...Take your fight "outside" boys...

There is no outside to take it to. I didn't bring "China" into this discussion. But I do live in China and have for the past five years.

You're being a bit melodramatic about this. Nothing will get destroyed. This is a thread about a topic that has been debated as long as there have been internet forums devoted to pool and billiards. Searching on the topic will bring you to flame wars that make this little discussion seem like a recital of Mary Had A Little Lamb.

Tell the racists and bigots to leave their nonsense at the door. Going back through the thread you will see that Joe and Playahater played the race card. What they started has nothing at all to do with the topic.

Beyond that you and everyone else can report posts that bother you. Instead of complaining in the thread just hit the report post button and when Mr. Wilson gets enough of those he will step in and do something.

Meanwhile, Joe and his new best friend don't get free reign to spew stereotypes and bigoted comments without being called out for it.

Also Jason, I don't "hate" Joe or his sidekick. I don't hate anyone. I just happen to disagree with the things they say because the things they say are either completely false or twisted and used out of context. The world is vast. Bigger and more complex than any of us can truly imagine. China is a big part of that big world and these people have been on this patch of Earth doing their thing for 5000 years, 3000 (That's THOUSAND, not hundreds) of which are recorded in pretty damn good detail. To presume that one KNOWS all about a country and it's people from half a world away is really an huge act of hubris. To presume that one knows all about a country simply because one reads a few news stories that sensationalize the worst things the writer can find to write about is a sign of willful delusion.

No one writes beautiful stories about all the great things in China. Why not? Because those things don't sell papers do they? Talking about all the great things that Americans do doesn't win converts to the war effort against America does it? But you and I know the America that some propagandist in Yemen doesn't know. We know all that America is underneath the veneer that our political system lays down. I know a lot of the deeper layers that make up Chinese society and culture because I have lived here for five years. And still I am FAR from knowing it all.

When someone makes a statement about how China should be more diverse I can't help but feel sorry for them. This part of the Earth which has had civilization for 5000 years should be more diverse? In this country villages which are only 20 miles apart barely speak the same language. This country was once at the heart of the silk road, the main trading artery from China to Europe.

I could go on and on and on......you want kumbaya and respect? Then ask them to do their homework first and read a little deeper. Maybe they should make some friends in China and exchange pictures, get to know the people and get their reports from REAL people who live and work here. China has 400 million internet users so it shouldn't be hard to get to know someone from China.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

P.S. Roy Malott and I would like to ask you to please return the Chinese made GTF case that was sent to you for review. It was not given to you for you to keep but only for you to evaluate. You have had it more than 2 years now and that's enough time.

Maybe he like the GTF CASE so much he use the CASE for His Daly Playing Cue Case, and for Great Protection?

 

[SplicedPoints]

So you can't criticize China for knowing history and then still gowing out and repeating it? There is a huge difference to what th US did in the 1800's and early 1900's and what China is doing now. The difference is they know what the pollution does. We didn't get that memo until later on. The science wasn't there then, but it is now.

Again, it's just pointing things out. I know not everyone there eats dogs, I know that there are hardworking people there. However when you buy Chinese there is a good chance that more of that money goes into the government.. that.. forces those working conditions AND supports the human right violations in general. Since that is more or less the case, why support that?

Boycotting Chinese goods from our view is no different than boycotting furs. Principle applies and JB sounds just like the guy making the fur coats. Again its just what side of the fence you're on.

JV

I see there is really no point arguing. I don't have a problem with Buy American. It's your dollar and your will to spend it.

I wish people would start traveling more to see the world. Know more people from different parts of the world. Don't just sit in your house and imagine how the world operates by watching and reading the news, written by people with backgrounds and interests similar to your own. This is a general statement.

I only chimed in because poolplaya was out of line with his comments that seem very unenlightened to the degree of insulting, as many people have pointed out.

 

[cueaddicts]

Maybe he like the GTF CASE so much he use the CASE for His Daly Playing Cue Case, and for Great Protection?

Maybe he had to incinerate it to kill the cooties.........wtf ????

John, quit playing Mr. Innocent here......you insulted and attacked Sam first a few times before he went off and this thread went downhill from there.

And since we're on Q & A, what are your feelings about this scenario?

[He that shall not be named] approaches well-known American craftsman/casemaker and says, hey, let me take over your operations....we'll handle the production in China and you can have your name on the cases and sell them for regular price. We'll split the profits, and don't worry, there's no need to tell your customers.....they don't need to know they're being made overseas.

 

[Wayne-Holmes]

Photo Theft

Does photo theft count the same as design theft when the perp claims he was the maker????
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3242935#post3242935

 

[bobco729]

I agree 100%

Craig, hasn't this been covered a hundred times? #1 it's not design theft to take a technique and do your own interpretation of it. #2 legally nothing on a cue is subject to copyright so you can't really steal what's not owned can you? #3 morally it's "wrong" to make dead nuts copies of someone else's work for your own profit but this is not an example of such.

We all copy from others, it's how we grow. Do we condemn Scott Gracio for his version of the Brusnwick 360? Or all the folks who make Tad-like designs? Or how about your use of pearlescent plastics in much the same way that cuemakers of the past and present (Viking) do it? The point is you and all other cue makers work in the styles that inspire you and you try and grow and take those styles in different directions.

That's how progress is made. Just think where we would be if the inventor of the wheel killed the first person who dared to make a copy of it.

Perfectly stated.
"country" Bob

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe he had to incinerate it to kill the cooties.........wtf ????

John, quit playing Mr. Innocent here......you insulted and attacked Sam first a few times before he went off and this thread went downhill from there.

And since we're on Q & A, what are your feelings about this scenario?

[He that shall not be named] approaches well-known American craftsman/casemaker and says, hey, let me take over your operations....we'll handle the production in China and you can have your name on the cases and sell them for regular price. We'll split the profits, and don't worry, there's no need to tell your customers.....they don't need to know they're being made overseas.

Sorry Sean, you are wrong on this. Start with post #22 and work your way down. Sam started by echoing a false premise of Joey's and inserting "China" into and when called on that decided to try the patriot card and from there dove further into the "china" stereotypes while trying to put me down.

Regarding your second scenario I think that it's wrong for the offer to be made and wrong if the offer was accepted.

Are you trying to accuse me of making this offer because I certainly did not make any such offer to any person living or dead.

I have talked with many people these past five years about the possibility of manufacturing their products in China and never once have I suggested that they deceive their customers by hiding the country of origin. I have only approached one case maker but only after they had already been to China and had been talking to another company. And in my letters to that company I never once suggested that they sell their cases deceptively

So since we are playing Q&A why don't you name and shame the person you want to accuse and provide your proof? Making paraphrased accusations is not proof. I asked Joe to provide a simple public statement denying that he hires illegal immigrants. Make it part of the public record.

I answered your questions. I answer everyone's questions. The benefit of being completely open on these forums is that I have nothing to hide. I have had some conversations with many people in the billiard industry that are not open to the public but I have done nothing that I need to be ashamed of and nothing that is deceptive to consumers. On the converse side I turned down a big order to makes cases where the customer was insisting that I stamp made in USA on them so that he could deceive his Chinese customers.

So if you think you have something on me now is the time to publish it and get it out there. Otherwise keep your implications to yourself.

 

[JB Cases]

Does photo theft count the same as design theft when the perp claims he was the maker????
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3242935#post3242935

No and Yes.

The stealing of photos and content is a copyright violation. Representing himself as the maker of the cues is fraud.

If he then makes a cue based on the photos and it's identical or clearly derivative then it's design theft (which has been covered here).

I am going through this very same thing with some asshat in China who stole ALL of our pictures and made his own website claiming that he made the cases and when one is ordered based on the pictures he makes a very bad knockoff for the customer. We are in the process of suing him for the copyright violations and the fraud. In China it's actually a criminal offense to misrepresent yourself as the maker of a product when you have nothing to do with the production. Whether or not this will actually result in any remedy is up in the air. (ok Barton haters you can cheer now)

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I am going through this very same thing with some asshat in China who stole ALL of our pictures and made his own website claiming that he made the cases and when one is ordered based on the pictures he makes a very bad knockoff for the customer. We are in the process of suing him for the copyright violations and the fraud. In China it's actually a criminal offense to misrepresent yourself as the maker of a product when you have nothing to do with the production. Whether or not this will actually result in any remedy is up in the air. (ok Barton haters you can cheer now)

Would this crime in CHINA be a big deal like 30 lashes of the CANE Ala Singapore Style?