Please offer your opinions on cue design theft

That's because it's not a tribute cue. And no someone could not take off the logo and sell it as a Chudy. To do that someone would need to put the Chudy logo on it. Because 2 minute's of research shows that all Chudy cues have the RC3 logo on them.

I totally disagree people are deceived every single day, and cue maker signature are lost in most cases do to refinish work not done by the cue maker

Misrepresentation has nothing at all to do with the maker though when they put out their product with no malice. Anyone can take any cue and alter it to attempt to defraud someone else.

If no malice was intended, people would not try to build a reputation for themselves by stealing another makers unique work, whether fraud was their intention or not.


Hell I saw a guy here in China pull out a Helmstetter Balabuska, with signature on the forearm and then pull out a laminated copy of the Blue Book's entry on George Balabushka to show me to "prove" that the cue was valuable. The price he was asking, $10,000. Someone somewhere probably ended up getting scammed on this cue. That's life and has been happening since ugg sold stuff to ogg.

Did you know that the ancient greek merchants invented distinctive packaging to differentiate their wine from the competition's? They would hire gangs of enforcers to smash the jugs of wine merchants who copied their jug design.

Yes Richard was the first to do the one-sided veneers, but he isn't the first anymore. In all things someone always has to be the first. Being the first is special but it does not grant a person a monopoly on whatever it is that they did first.

No your right he is no longer the only one, that is the reason I started this thread. I have never said that it granted anyone a Monopoly on anything, I have only said that the guy stole a unique design that was not copied by anyone else to my knowledge until the cue in question was built.


If I were the first person to run a mile in three minutes would you seek to ban all other humans from running a mile in three minutes? What if they copied my technique and broke my 3 minute record and started running it in 2 minutes? Should we shoot them?

There is no way on the Earth that you can prevent fraud Craig. It's impossible. No matter what is made someone else will find a way to copy it and use that copy to defraud others. You are honestly wasting your time raging about it and speculating about what could happen.

The only real way to prevent yourself from being defrauded is to practice due diligence. Do your homework. People that don't do this are much easier to con.


On this we agree, being defrauded can happen to anyone. Like I said in a previous post even the likes of Barry Szamboti has misidentified cues that he thought were made by his father, but that just shows why design theft is such a big problem. I am not raging about anything in this thread, I have left that up to you and others, all I have done is express my opinion on this subject, you have to remember John Raging / pissing contests really serve no purpose. When you allow yourself to become involved in those type of battles what is right and wrong don't matter so much anymore. The only thing that does matter is who can better control their emotions, because the person who does this will win hands down every time.


The point is that we can not run around and condemn every person who makes a pool cue in a similar "Style" as another cue maker. We can't use the excuse that such a cue could be used to deceive some other person somewhere down the road. A hammer can be used to kill and we don't ban hammers.

There is difference between making a cue with a similar style/design and stealing / coping a unique design. The design in question is not a run of mill design, it was obviously copied down to the number of stacked Veneer's that Richard is famous for. Please not try and right this off as a simple mistake in style, I think that it is reasonably clear that the cues design was intentionally copied.

If you want to condemn the people who make dead-nuts knockoffs then go ahead. I think that using another person's catalog of cue designs is crass and unimaginative.

If that were true than why are arguing here? Because that is what was done.


But if one looks at the fashion industry which is doing about a trillion dollars a year in revenue they are flourishing despite the fact that millions of copies of the newest designs flood the market within weeks of being debuted on the runways at the big shows. All the famous brands are big and rich and the designers are celebrities. There is no copyright attached to fashion designs and yet the industry is making tons of money.

Let's look at just these two threads. Richard Chudy has gotten a ton of free publicity off this discussion. I would not be surprised if he gets a few orders. I knew he did the one-sided veneers but I hadn't really gone to look at his work and now I have and he has some amazing cues. So the benefit to Chudy is that this one cue from a new maker has generated more buzz about Chudy's work. This is great because no matter how much you or I are in the know about who does what there are people out there who don't have a clue who Richard Chudy is.


Richard was very well know before his design was stolen, that is what made it so easy to spot. I am certain that he would not want people to make knock offs of his designs so he can get the orders you are talking about. In my opinion anyone who deals in this business whether you are collector or dealer in cues for living already were very familiar with Richards work before this thread, he not not some up and coming cue maker, he has already made a name for himself without the help of any design thief. You are right there are many who do not know about Richards work, however, the very people you are talking about also do not buy $1000 + cues so it really doesn't matter that much.



And when it comes down to it people who have the money and who have the desire aren't looking to buy cues from people who specialize in being second to market with a particular style or design. Those people want to buy from the originator, they want original art from the source.

So it all works out in the cycle of life.




Have a great night
 
Have a great night

It's very difficult to have a conversation if you embed your answers inside of one big quote.

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Originally Posted by JB Cases
That's because it's not a tribute cue. And no someone could not take off the logo and sell it as a Chudy. To do that someone would need to put the Chudy logo on it. Because 2 minute's of research shows that all Chudy cues have the RC3 logo on them.


I totally disagree people are deceived every single day, and cue maker signature are lost in most cases do to refinish work not done by the cue maker.

This has nothing to do with deception. If someone is trying to pass off cue X as cue Y and there is no logo where on should be then the buyer should get it authenticated before paying.



Misrepresentation has nothing at all to do with the maker though when they put out their product with no malice. Anyone can take any cue and alter it to attempt to defraud someone else.


If no malice was intended, people would not try to build a reputation for themselves by stealing another makers unique work, whether fraud was their intention or not.

You cannot steal style. You can only emulate it. It's not malice to work in another man's style, it actually the purest form of flattery that exists because you are using your own time and money to invest in someone else's idea of what "good" is. I am certain that this cue maker in China had no malice whatsoever when he decided to attempt the single sided veneers. And he put his own ideas on it and the result is a cue inspired (we think) by Chudy but clearly not a Chudy.


Hell I saw a guy here in China pull out a Helmstetter Balabuska, with signature on the forearm and then pull out a laminated copy of the Blue Book's entry on George Balabushka to show me to "prove" that the cue was valuable. The price he was asking, $10,000. Someone somewhere probably ended up getting scammed on this cue. That's life and has been happening since ugg sold stuff to ogg.

Did you know that the ancient greek merchants invented distinctive packaging to differentiate their wine from the competition's? They would hire gangs of enforcers to smash the jugs of wine merchants who copied their jug design.

Yes Richard was the first to do the one-sided veneers, but he isn't the first anymore. In all things someone always has to be the first. Being the first is special but it does not grant a person a monopoly on whatever it is that they did first.


No your right he is no longer the only one, that is the reason I started this thread. I have never said that it granted anyone a Monopoly on anything, I have only said that the guy stole a unique design that was not copied by anyone else to my knowledge until the cue in question was built.

Again, he did not steal a design. He used a concept which is to stack veneers on one side. Chudy has proven the concept in his work and this guy has shown his own spin on the same concept. You are confusing design with style. A design is SPECIFIC arrangement a style is certain consistent look. Jack Justis works in a consistent style. Each of his cases has a specific design that adheres to the style he prefers to work in.


If I were the first person to run a mile in three minutes would you seek to ban all other humans from running a mile in three minutes? What if they copied my technique and broke my 3 minute record and started running it in 2 minutes? Should we shoot them?

There is no way on the Earth that you can prevent fraud Craig. It's impossible. No matter what is made someone else will find a way to copy it and use that copy to defraud others. You are honestly wasting your time raging about it and speculating about what could happen.

The only real way to prevent yourself from being defrauded is to practice due diligence. Do your homework. People that don't do this are much easier to con.


On this we agree, being defrauded can happen to anyone. Like I said in a previous post even the likes of Barry Szamboti has misidentified cues that he thought were made by his father, but that just shows why design theft is such a big problem. I am not raging about anything in this thread, I have left that up to you and others, all I have done is express my opinion on this subject, you have to remember John Raging / pissing contests really serve no purpose. When you allow yourself to become involved in those type of battles what is right and wrong don't matter so much anymore. The only thing that does matter is who can better control their emotions, because the person who does this will win hands down every time.

Sorry Craig, you were raging and I am glad to see that you have calmed down. The point is that you cannot say well this is allowed but that is not. I hate to say that I agree with the hypocrite on anything but the fact is that you either have to have a database of designs with cue maker's names attached to each one to insure than none are ever repeated by anyone or you have to allow for the fact that some cue makers are going to copy in whole or in part other makers. All anyone has done here is express their opinions because on this subject the only facts are what is legal and what is not. Questions of morality and ethics are all only answerable by opinion when it comes to this topic.


The point is that we can not run around and condemn every person who makes a pool cue in a similar "Style" as another cue maker. We can't use the excuse that such a cue could be used to deceive some other person somewhere down the road. A hammer can be used to kill and we don't ban hammers.

There is difference between making a cue with a similar style/design and stealing / coping a unique design. The design in question is not a run of mill design, it was obviously copied down to the number of stacked Veneer's that Richard is famous for. Please not try and right this off as a simple mistake in style, I think that it is reasonably clear that the cues design was intentionally copied.

Richard's style with the one sided veneers is cool but it's not as if this is some technical feat that required years of research to accomplish. The only reason it's not run of the mill after being out in the world for 19 years is because either not enough people have seen it or no one else wants to do it. Richard does a lot of designs that other cue makers don't copy because those designs are far out there. What cue was intentionally copied? Show the cue that the Chinese maker used to copy from? You can't because there isn't one. The guy took the idea of single side veneers and applied his own take on it. No more no less.

Furthermore it's entirely possible that someone else could independently come up with the idea of doing single sided veneers. It's happened many times throughout history that people working independently with no knowledge of the other have developed similar, almost identical, products.





If you want to condemn the people who make dead-nuts knockoffs then go ahead. I think that using another person's catalog of cue designs is crass and unimaginative.


If that were true than why are arguing here? Because that is what was done.

No, that is not what was done. You have made several cues with pearlescent rings have you not? Are you now a design thief because others before you have made cues with pearlescent rings? This cue ONLY has one element of Chudy's in it, the single sided veneers. It's not a copy of any single Chudy cue.


But if one looks at the fashion industry which is doing about a trillion dollars a year in revenue they are flourishing despite the fact that millions of copies of the newest designs flood the market within weeks of being debuted on the runways at the big shows. All the famous brands are big and rich and the designers are celebrities. There is no copyright attached to fashion designs and yet the industry is making tons of money.

Let's look at just these two threads. Richard Chudy has gotten a ton of free publicity off this discussion. I would not be surprised if he gets a few orders. I knew he did the one-sided veneers but I hadn't really gone to look at his work and now I have and he has some amazing cues. So the benefit to Chudy is that this one cue from a new maker has generated more buzz about Chudy's work. This is great because no matter how much you or I are in the know about who does what there are people out there who don't have a clue who Richard Chudy is.



Richard was very well know before his design was stolen, that is what made it so easy to spot. I am certain that he would not want people to make knock offs of his designs so he can get the orders you are talking about. In my opinion anyone who deals in this business whether you are collector or dealer in cues for living already were very familiar with Richards work before this thread, he not not some up and coming cue maker, he has already made a name for himself without the help of any design thief. You are right there are many who do not know about Richards work, however, the very people you are talking about also do not buy $1000 + cues so it really doesn't matter that much.

It was easy to spot for the people HERE on AZB in the cue gallery section. Do you honestly think that a guy in China is TRYING to make a living building cues to sell for $1500 that are dead nuts knockoffs of cue makers that can be so-easily identified? I mean the guy would have to be the world's biggest idiot to start knocking off RC3 designs as his bread-and-butter. He did not copy any Chudy cue with this cue.

What if I told you that one of the biggest cuemakers on the planet does not care about people knocking him off as long as they give him credit? You are angry on Richard's behalf but for all you know he could be pleased that someone finally after 19 years has thought enough of him to try and work with this SSV concept.

Go watch the TAR interview with Ernie and see what he has to say about knockoffs. What he says confirms the point I made above but you should listen to Ernie tell you himself.
 
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Thanks very much for everyones opinions during the course of this thread, at least those who stayed on topic. My intent here was not to change anyones mind on this subject because trying to do that would be fools quest. I have learned much more than I ever thought I would about other members feelings concerning this topic. I hope others have taken something away from this that was also valuable.

In my opinion there is no right or wrong answer concerning this topic, only opinions on what is right or wrong. There is no way to clearly identify what is design theft and some ones ability to simply create a similar design to one that is already being used by others.

Only the person who has made the copy can say for certain if it was their genuine thoughts or if they used another's work as their inspiration for the design. Honesty is what sets these concepts apart, and time alone will tell if the person that does these things is honest or just another knock off artist who has never had a genuine thought.

Thanks for everyones input in this discussion:smile:
 
Questions of legality can be factually answered because there are laws and court cases that govern them.

So when someone makes a statement that so-and-so has broken the law because of making a cue that looks like another cue then that statement is generally wrong in the eyes of the law.

However if someone makes a statement that they feel it is wrong to make a cue that looks like another cue then that is an opinion only.

There are two important sides to this discussion.

Legal - based in the established and current law.

Moral/Ethical - based on how people FEEL.

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The legal side is fairly easy to prove/disprove. Is is legal to do X? Yes or no. Turns out that in the USA it is perfectly legal to copy someone's cue design at the moment. (Exception being the use of copyrighted images and trademarks without permission)

The moral side is the one that is in eternal debate. Some people feel that copying is wrong no matter what. Others feel it's wrong sometimes. And others feel it's never wrong.

I personally have a problem when people confuse design with style. The Single Sided Veneers are a style that has come to define Richard Chudy's work. For those who are deep into pool cues this style is instantly recognizable. SouthWest's style is clear and thus anyone who builds a SouthWest style cue can't get away from it.

Design is the SPECIFIC arrangement of elements to for a single piece. Design is not style but style is by design.

This may sound like a play on words but it's not. Style follows design. So anyone who copies a design is copying a specific tangible thing. Anyone who copies a style is copying a concept, a look that is not tangible.

This cue in question copies Richard Chudy's style but not any particular design.

Now you can argue that taking a man's style (which cannot be taken) is like taking his soul which is worse than taking a particular design. Morals/ethics/sprituality.

Or you can argue that when a person presents their style to the world then they are giving it to the world for all who wish to follow him.
 
Questions of legality can be factually answered because there are laws and court cases that govern them.

So when someone makes a statement that so-and-so has broken the law because of making a cue that looks like another cue then that statement is generally wrong in the eyes of the law.

However if someone makes a statement that they feel it is wrong to make a cue that looks like another cue then that is an opinion only.

There are two important sides to this discussion.

Legal - based in the established and current law.

Moral/Ethical - based on how people FEEL.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The legal side is fairly easy to prove/disprove. Is is legal to do X? Yes or no. Turns out that in the USA it is perfectly legal to copy someone's cue design at the moment. (Exception being the use of copyrighted images and trademarks without permission)

The moral side is the one that is in eternal debate. Some people feel that copying is wrong no matter what. Others feel it's wrong sometimes. And others feel it's never wrong.

I personally have a problem when people confuse design with style. The Single Sided Veneers are a style that has come to define Richard Chudy's work. For those who are deep into pool cues this style is instantly recognizable. SouthWest's style is clear and thus anyone who builds a SouthWest style cue can't get away from it.

Design is the SPECIFIC arrangement of elements to for a single piece. Design is not style but style is by design.

This may sound like a play on words but it's not. Style follows design. So anyone who copies a design is copying a specific tangible thing. Anyone who copies a style is copying a concept, a look that is not tangible.

This cue in question copies Richard Chudy's style but not any particular design.

Now you can argue that taking a man's style (which cannot be taken) is like taking his soul which is worse than taking a particular design. Morals/ethics/sprituality.

Or you can argue that when a person presents their style to the world then they are giving it to the world for all who wish to follow him.




John words are a wonderful thing, they can be bent and twisted to shape any opinion your mind can fashion. Until it happens to you on a person level then all bets are off.

There is no argument here John, unless that is what all you posts to this thread have been designed to do, and only you know if that is a fact or not.

As I stated above unlike some I am not guided by the illusion that I can change the opinions of others, anyone who believes that they have the ability to do so is truly Mad. But even with that said some certainly attempt to do this and the funny thing appears to be the fact that they never know how they are actually viewed by the wider audience.

Take care Sir, having the last word is never as important as speaking honestly and truthfully from the heart.:smile:
 
John words are a wonderful thing, they can be bent and twisted to shape any opinion your mind can fashion. Until it happens to you on a person level then all bets are off.

There is no argument here John, unless that is what all you posts to this thread have been designed to do, and only you know if that is a fact or not.

As I stated above unlike some I am not guided by the illusion that I can change the opinions of others, anyone who believes that they have the ability to do so is truly Mad. But even with that said some certainly attempt to do this and the funny thing appears to be the fact that they never know how they are actually viewed by the wider audience.

Take care Sir, having the last word is never as important as speaking honestly and truthfully from the heart.:smile:

I am not sure what this means. All I know is that as far as the billiard industry goes my designs have been copied and knocked off more than any one else's in this thread and probably more than any other member of AZB.

I am one of the few here who has gone to court to protect my intellectual property.

So that gives me a voice and it's a voice of experience.

Losing several million dollars in sales over a decade due to design "theft" has caused me to put a lot of thought into this subject. There is no one on this forum who has lost more. So like rape, no one who has not been raped can ever really know what it's like or talk about it with any authority until they have been raped.

If you have the notion that I am not speaking from the heart on this then I guess you are entitled to your opinion. Not only am speaking from the heart but I am also speaking from experience and study.
 
All I can say is that social conformity is a powerful phenomenon. People are pack animals and when their parents didn't teach them about a particular situation, they lean on the rest of the pack to tell them what they should feel and they adopt that belief, defending it to no end even though at the core they don't really know if it's right or not. It's human. There's a science based on studying this stuff. With uncharted subjects, the majority belief is often the result of the snowball effect, gaining momentum without a real solid base. It's monkey see, monkey do. Before you know it, there's a common belief that is utterly wrong but it lasts long enough to do it's damage. Look around. It's everywhere. It's right here. Design theft is justified & the guilt neutralized because it's what people perceive is the socially acceptable way to deal with it.

The five techniques of guilt neutralization are denial of responsibility, denial of injury, denial of victim, condemnation of the condemners, and appeal to higher loyalties. I don't make this shit up. It's rock solid text book science. Denial of responsibility is saying you didn't know it was design theft. Denial of injury is saying, "big deal, nobody's hurt by it." Denial of victim is saying, "it's ok because everybody does it." Condemnation of condemners is saying, "what about you? you're a hypocrite who justifies himself by twisting things." And appeal to higher loyalties is saying, "it's what the customer wanted". This is legitimate science, not just some hoky poky bullshit. Design theft is wrong, clearly wrong, yet people justify it to themselves in predictable manner, and actually try attaining support for their BS from their social group. In this case it's the forums.

I'm not here to argue and I won't. I went through it recently with a cue maker who quite literally attempted an exact copy of a cue I built. I was pissed off and spoke out. For that I was called a hypocrite, among other things. The world is a jacked up place if a guy can't even stand up for himself anymore. I'm educated & consider myself a well grounded thinker. I understand what's happening and see things clearly. What I don't understand is why people continue to act like a herd of cattle, following the group because it's safer. We actually live in a time and place that allows a person to be themselves without fear of survival. But still, everybody follows the herd.

Quoted for posterity. Can't believe no one commented on the best post of this entire thread. Guess it proves the pack mentality.

P.S. CC, please stop paying your internet bill so we can stop reading your illiterate gibberish and looking at your ridiculous pictures. I know you think they're witty but here's a news flash...they aren't!
 
Quoted for posterity. Can't believe no one commented on the best post of this entire thread. Guess it proves the pack mentality.

What were we supposed to comment on? Should we debate the psychology presented?

So some people in this thread are adamantly against CDT, some are in the middle, and some don't care about it at all. So what "herds" are they in?

Which herd is wrong and which herd is right?

It's not like we are talking about the Holocaust here and some people are trying to justify it. We are talking about style and design and what's legal, what's right, and what's over the line.

In the larger world this is actually a much bigger debate than here on AZB with many cited papers written about it. Many cases have gone all the way to the Supreme Court over it.

It's not right to call everyone who disagrees with you part of the "herd". Or make the accusation that they are trying to minimize the "crime" you accuse them of.

The fact is that the entire world of human endeavor as we know it exists 100% because of copying. Every building you see, every painting you see, every utensil you use, every computer you use, every piece of clothing you wear exists because the person who created it copied something to be able to make it.

We are all part of the herd. And once in a while one of us figures out something new (that was also based on something old) and the herd follows and goes in THAT direction.

This topic is not so cut and dried as to be able to say THIS is right and THAT is not. And it never will be.
 
So yes said:
But that is exactly why it doesn't matter. Spend your time on something you can have even the slightest impact on. Worry, fretting or trying to make a dent in an issue like someone copying something else is pointless. Pick your battles...pick the ones you have a chance of winning.

It's like George Carlin said... "Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff."

If you are worried about your design, copyright it before you "release" it. In the world of pool cues, that really isn't feasable unless you are a "company" like predator/OB/etc...

Good discussions John. You always have some great arguements.

r,

Greg
 
I was contacted by Richard Churdy this afternoon, and no matter what anyone else thinks he was glad that some one took a stand and made the comments that I made. He was also not surprised that so many others could care less, or that they found nothing wrong with stealing a unique design that he was alone known for because he said he had seen similar threads on this forum concerning this very topic.

He also asked for links to the thread so the he could read / review all the debate and thoughts of the forums members. I don't know if he is a member of this forum or not, but I hope if he is so that he will share his thoughts on this subject.

I also sent Richard a link to the original post that has pictures of the cue in question, however, I could not include the name of the makers name because of course he does not want anyone to know who he is. I do not know if this is a guilt response or if he is not proud of his work, and at this point I do not think it really matters too much anyway, because it is better for him to stay under the rock he has chosen to hide under.

JIMO
 
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I was contacted by Richard Churdy this afternoon, and no matter what anyone else thinks he was glad that some one took a stand and made the comments that I made. He was also not surprised that so many others could care less, or that they found nothing wrong with stealing a unique design that he was alone known for because he said he had seen similar threads on this forum concerning this very topic.

He also asked for links to the thread so the he could read / review all the debate and thoughts of the forums members. I don't know if he is a member of this forum or not, but I hope if he is so that he will share his thoughts on this subject.

I also sent Richard a link to the original post that has pictures of the cue in question, however, I could not include the name of the makers name because of course he does not want anyone to know who he is. I do not know if this is a guilt response or if he is not proud of his work, and at this point I do not think it really matters too much anyway, because it is better for him to stay under the rock he has chosen to hiding under.

JIMO

The rock he has been hiding under?

You're kidding right? If you know someone who speaks Chinese then you can find him easily through the Chinese pool forums and contact him and have a conversation.

I wonder if Richard Chudy is going to then apologize to all the cue makers he has copied in some form or another. Has he ever done a cue with double-sided veneers? Four points? Inlays?

I mean come on?

This is from Richard's site in the Classic Style Cues section:

Classic Style Cues

In the beginning when a cue stick was a cue stick everything was four pointed, four veneered and steel jointed. And if you started making cues in the east this is what you cut your teeth on. I am no exception and yes, I still make’m...2011 style. You’ll also find plain front cues here (they were called ‘Merry Widows’ back in the day) and my signature single sided six pointers. This is where it all begins some are plain and simple others more elaborate but all are classic.
- Richard Chudy Website

So now some cue maker in China is cutting his teeth on Richard's design and that's a bad thing?

Listen, I LOVE Richard's cues and every time I am standing at his booth I get lost in his work. But this is nonsense to claim that no one else should ever be allowed to do what Richard has done.

We really don't need to go down the road of nitpicking every cue maker's cues and picking out the design elements that have been "borrowed" from other cue makers do we?

It is my OPINION that you are being way to harsh with the cue maker in China. I will make it a POINT to get his name because I do not believe for one second that he is hiding under a rock. The fact is that Jive has not talked to this cue maker. At this point NO ONE HERE knows what was in the guy's head when he made the cue.

So it's a bit early to be getting out the pitchforks and torches to burn the guy at the stake.

We will see what Richard has to say if he decides to chime in. He is really the only person here that has a right to be upset at all since it's pretty much agreed that he was the first to subtract one side of the veneers.


EDIT: Got the cue maker's name and phone number. I will call him up and interview him and post the interview at www.pool.bz and here. Then we will have his thoughts as to why this cue came into existence.
 
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The rock he has been hiding under?

You're kidding right? If you know someone who speaks Chinese then you can find him easily through the Chinese pool forums and contact him and have a conversation.

I wonder if Richard Chudy is going to then apologize to all the cue makers he has copied in some form or another. Has he ever done a cue with double-sided veneers? Four points? Inlays?

I mean come on?

This is from Richard's site in the Classic Style Cues section:

Classic Style Cues

In the beginning when a cue stick was a cue stick everything was four pointed, four veneered and steel jointed. And if you started making cues in the east this is what you cut your teeth on. I am no exception and yes, I still make’m...2011 style. You’ll also find plain front cues here (they were called ‘Merry Widows’ back in the day) and my signature single sided six pointers. This is where it all begins some are plain and simple others more elaborate but all are classic.
- Richard Chudy Website

So now some cue maker in China is cutting his teeth on Richard's design and that's a bad thing?

Listen, I LOVE Richard's cues and every time I am standing at his booth I get lost in his work. But this is nonsense to claim that no one else should ever be allowed to do what Richard has done.

We really don't need to go down the road of nitpicking every cue maker's cues and picking out the design elements that have been "borrowed" from other cue makers do we?

It is my OPINION that you are being way to harsh with the cue maker in China. I will make it a POINT to get his name because I do not believe for one second that he is hiding under a rock. The fact is that Jive has not talked to this cue maker. At this point NO ONE HERE knows what was in the guy's head when he made the cue.

So it's a bit early to be getting out the pitchforks and torches to burn the guy at the stake.

We will see what Richard has to say if he decides to chime in. He is really the only person here that has a right to be upset at all since it's pretty much agreed that he was the first to subtract one side of the veneers.



First of John if you read the other thread it was made clear that the maker would not be identified, whether that was his choice or the choice of the threads OP I don't know, maybe you can tell us all who he is, since it appears that you know where to find the person.

Now I don't know why my comments that Mr. Churdy was contacted about the coping of one of his unique designs has made you so angery, I mean would you not want some one to contact you if the same thing happened and some one had copied one of your unique case designs of whcih there are many?

Then to question Mr. Churdies integrety when you have no proof that he has ever been involved with design theft, I mean come on John your comments are slanderous at the very least. I think if you are going make such an accusation you should at least provid some proof, instead of making comments that are clearly based on your current emotional state of mind.

John, I think you owe Mr. Churdy an apology at the very least unless you have proof, so please post your proof, photographs of the copies would certainy clear this up.

Last John, I do not see why your responce to my posts are becoming so negative and sarcastic no where have I attacked you, belittled you, or threatened you, the only thing I have done is offer an opinion which doesn't agree with your's. This alone seems to anger you to point of attacking a cue maker who has done nothing to anyone concerned, I think you should take a close look at your actions, because I do not think you intended to attack or slander anyone.

I have to ask, are your actions based upon the fact the individual is Chinese, and that the cue was made in China? If so and that is what has you emotionally involved in this thread save you anger for those who have used that fact as a point of discussion, while I may have included it some where in a post I have not dwelled upon that fact and like I said before that fact doesn't really matter to me on any level anyway.


Please consider your comments above John, and also consider why you are making them.

Have a good night Sir.
 
The rock he has been hiding under?

You're kidding right? If you know someone who speaks Chinese then you can find him easily through the Chinese pool forums and contact him and have a conversation.

I wonder if Richard Chudy is going to then apologize to all the cue makers he has copied in some form or another. Has he ever done a cue with double-sided veneers? Four points? Inlays?

I mean come on?

This is from Richard's site in the Classic Style Cues section:

Classic Style Cues

In the beginning when a cue stick was a cue stick everything was four pointed, four veneered and steel jointed. And if you started making cues in the east this is what you cut your teeth on. I am no exception and yes, I still make’m...2011 style. You’ll also find plain front cues here (they were called ‘Merry Widows’ back in the day) and my signature single sided six pointers. This is where it all begins some are plain and simple others more elaborate but all are classic.
- Richard Chudy Website

So now some cue maker in China is cutting his teeth on Richard's design and that's a bad thing?

Listen, I LOVE Richard's cues and every time I am standing at his booth I get lost in his work. But this is nonsense to claim that no one else should ever be allowed to do what Richard has done.

We really don't need to go down the road of nitpicking every cue maker's cues and picking out the design elements that have been "borrowed" from other cue makers do we?

It is my OPINION that you are being way to harsh with the cue maker in China. I will make it a POINT to get his name because I do not believe for one second that he is hiding under a rock. The fact is that Jive has not talked to this cue maker. At this point NO ONE HERE knows what was in the guy's head when he made the cue.

So it's a bit early to be getting out the pitchforks and torches to burn the guy at the stake.

We will see what Richard has to say if he decides to chime in. He is really the only person here that has a right to be upset at all since it's pretty much agreed that he was the first to subtract one side of the veneers.


EDIT: Got the cue maker's name and phone number. I will call him up and interview him and post the interview at www.pool.bz and here. Then we will have his thoughts as to why this cue came into existence.


Send that information to Richard, like you said above he is the only one who has the right to be angery, so why are you getting involved, and why not at least post the Cue Makers name, I mean it sucks to have a cue on the forum such as it is currently, or is there a reason the cue should be left as a cue by an unknown maker!!:smile:
 
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Send that information to Richard, like you said above he is the only one who has the right to be angery, so why are you getting involved, and why not at least post the Cue Makers name, I mean it sucks to have a cue on the forum such as it is currently, or is there a reason the cue should be left as a cue by an unknown maker!!:smile:

Why am I involved? For the same reason you are involved. You have something to say about the subject and so do I.

Don't worry about it the cue maker's name will be revealed soon enough as if that matters.

It's also not an unknown maker. Unknown to you but there is a logo on the bottom of the cue. The brand is Monster Cue and the one-man workshop is near Beijing.

Some other small Asian cue makers you might not know are CBZ and Rayes Cues.

Feel free to pass on my email to Richard and I will be happy to do what I can to get him in touch with the cue maker after I conclude my interview.
 
First of John if you read the other thread it was made clear that the maker would not be identified, whether that was his choice or the choice of the threads OP I don't know, maybe you can tell us all who he is, since it appears that you know where to find the person.

First of all I don't know WHY it's so important that you FIND the cue maker. Is someone planning to send a hit man after him?

This is the FIRST line in the other thread. I bolded the relevant part for you.

"A buddy of mine flew in from Beijing with a brand new cue that i had to post on AZ cos i think it looks amazing and it's a design i've never seen before. This is a Custom cue Made in China, i know many will be be laughing thinking it's another mass produced cue, produced in a sweat shop by 5000 twelve year olds.... Well it's not, i'm sure the kids were at least 14...
This is a custom cue from Monster Workshop, it's a one man shop and i'm still trying to get his name. Will get my friend to furnish me with more details later.
"

Now I don't know why my comments that Mr. Churdy was contacted about the coping of one of his unique designs has made you so angery, I mean would you not want some one to contact you if the same thing happened and some one had copied one of your unique case designs of whcih there are many?

I am not angry at all. I have a different perspective than you do that's all. I get contacted all the time when people run across knockoffs of my cases. I deal with it based on whatever the situation calls for.

Then to question Mr. Churdies integrety when you have no proof that he has ever been involved with design theft, I mean come on John your comments are slanderous at the very least. I think if you are going make such an accusation you should at least provid some proof, instead of making comments that are clearly based on your current emotional state of mind.


Slanderous? I copied the words from Richard's website where he clearly said he cut his teeth making east-coast style cues. The proof that a lot of his work contains elements used by others is on his website. I don't know IF Richard was the first to make a four point cue? Do you? Or the reverse points below the wrap? Who did those first? I am asking you because you know a lot about these things? The first I can remember seeing reverse points was by either Bludworth or Porper. In any event they both used them so clearly someone was copying someone else to some degree.

Craig be real buddy. You are slamming this poor guy from China and at the same time giving a FREE PASS to hundreds of American cue makers that have "copied" or borrowed elements of design from other makers.

I am not angry over this I am just being real. Do I get pissy when people copy me? Sure I do. I don't like it. But I understand that it's part of life.

I am not at all denying Richard the right to be angry. I am just not in agreement with you that THIS CUE is a copy of any of Richard's cues as you keep saying it is. It's clearly emulating Richard's style but is not a copy of any of Richard's designs.



John, I think you owe Mr. Churdy an apology at the very least unless you have proof, so please post your proof, photographs of the copies would certainy clear this up.

An apology for what? For pointing out to you that some of his cues contain elements of design that are also present in other cues? Using Richard's own words he said he makes "classic" cues using the traditional 4 point designs.

L
ast John, I do not see why your responce to my posts are becoming so negative and sarcastic no where have I attacked you, belittled you, or threatened you, the only thing I have done is offer an opinion which doesn't agree with your's. This alone seems to anger you to point of attacking a cue maker who has done nothing to anyone concerned, I think you should take a close look at your actions, because I do not think you intended to attack or slander anyone.

I have not been in the least sarcastic. Nor am I being negative unless you consider it negative to be in disagreement with you on this subject. My views are one side of the coin, yours are the other. You started this thread because you were very angry about the cue that Jive posted. I made my views clear and my views have been consistent on this subject for many years.

I have to ask, are your actions based upon the fact the individual is Chinese, and that the cue was made in China?

Not at all. As you know I don't care in the least where something is made.


If so and that is what has you emotionally involved in this thread save you anger for those who have used that fact as a point of discussion, while I may have included it some where in a post I have not dwelled upon that fact and like I said before that fact doesn't really matter to me on any level anyway.

You know me better than that Craig. You know that my emotional level is quite calm in this thread. We are old pros at this game by now.


Please consider your comments above John, and also consider why you are making them.

I can tell you why I have made the comments I have, they reflect my opinion on the topic. As I said and you have not yet acknowledged my designs have been knocked off more than anyone else's on AZB. So this gives me the right to speak up about the topic as much or more than anyone else.

Have a good night Sir.

Thank you and the same to you.
 
For everyone else and since this is primarily about Richard's style here is the Ask The Cue Maker interview at Jimbo Army http://www.jimboarmy.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5091&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

Richard made one super relevant comment that especially applies here;

"As far as design theft goes you know it when you see it. If you look at a cue and immediately think of maker A and it turns out to be made by maker B there is a problem. And please, don’t try to disguise it by calling a ‘tribute’. " - Richard Chudy

Now this point is important because IMMEDIATELY people thought of Richard's work when they saw the SSV. And it's a good point. If you see something and you immediately think of someone else's name then it's clearly a case of design "theft".

But is that bad? Well that's the question isn't it.

P.S. read it ALL the way through for the shocking ending :-)
 
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What were we supposed to comment on? Should we debate the psychology presented?

No, John, you're right. Please continue with the mud slinging. These topics get so much clearer when you guys do that :rolleyes:

Koop - forgets what the original debate was about.
 
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