OPINION ALERT!!! Great Players Are Great Players Because…

[JB Cases]

Great players are great because they put in the time. No one is born as a great pool player. They put in the time and had the right circumstances and mentoring.

That's it.

They can do things that you and I can't because they put in the time to learn them.

Do you think Florian Kohler is more "talented" than you are?

Start at the beginning with his YouTube videos and you will see that his ability comes from huge amounts of deliberate and focused practice. He worked hard to develop the skill to perform the shots he discovered are possible.

Get a pool table of your own, lots of time, no bills, no kids, no wife, no job and an encouraging community of like-minded people around the world posting competing videos to push you and you can be as good as Florian or at least better than anyone you are likely to meet in a pool room.

Same thing applies to regular pool. Put in the time, have proper influences (coaching, mentoring, exposure to great players) and you can't help but get very good to great.

Research has shown that time+instruction+focus is more important than "talent". People who are considered "great" at anything have generally put at least ten years of focused learning and training into it.

The old saying that an amateur practices until they get it right and a pro practices until they can't get it wrong applies here.

 

[BasementDweller]

Great players are great because they put in the time. No one is born as a great pool player. They put in the time and had the right circumstances and mentoring.

That's it.

They can do things that you and I can't because they put in the time to learn them.

Do you think Florian Kohler is more "talented" than you are?

Start at the beginning with his YouTube videos and you will see that his ability comes from huge amounts of deliberate and focused practice. He worked hard to develop the skill to perform the shots he discovered are possible.

Get a pool table of your own, lots of time, no bills, no kids, no wife, no job and an encouraging community of like-minded people around the world posting competing videos to push you and you can be as good as Florian or at least better than anyone you are likely to meet in a pool room.

Same thing applies to regular pool. Put in the time, have proper influences (coaching, mentoring, exposure to great players) and you can't help but get very good to great.

Research has shown that time+instruction+focus is more important than "talent". People who are considered "great" at anything have generally put at least ten years of focused learning and training into it.

The old saying that an amateur practices until they get it right and a pro practices until they can't get it wrong applies here.

I know this subject comes up a lot and you are always on the side of everybody having unlimited potential. Your arguments have been persuasive enough that I have reconsidered why I put such limits on my own ability to improve. So, in that regard I tap my cue to you. However, I still maintain that not everybody can become a champion player. We are all mere mortals and only have finite amount of time to work with -- champions and bangers a like. So, yes we could all spend the next 5 years trying diligently to learn how to draw the ball 2X the length of the table, or spend that time working on nailing down some difficult position shot, or doing drills or whatever, all in an attempt at continually getting better. What do you think the champions are doing during this time period? They're getting better too. Maybe they are just out competing at a high level but that in and of itself is accomplishing something. In other words, it's very difficult to catch up with them.

I now agree with you that just about anybody can get really good at pool. However, once you get up to that shortstop level (which I'm not at so I'm just citing my opinion) it gets very hard to continue to see improvement. I think a lot of the newer research that you cite, should make everybody rethink what it takes to get good to even great at something. But being the BEST at something is much harder to quantify and I don't believe any psychologist, sociologist, or any type of ologist will ever be able to totally understand this. I no more believe we all have the potential to be a player like Efren Reyes than I believe we could all be trained to be an artist like Michelangelo.

The whole point of my post was just pointing out how much better these guys stroke the ball than us bangers do. Can a banger become one of these guys? Maybe - but the formula for greatness isn't simply time+instruction+focus, instead it's time+instruction+focus+X. I admit I have no idea what the “X” is and I probably never will.

 

[naji]

The whole point of my post was just pointing out how much better these guys stroke the ball than us bangers do. Can a banger become one of these guys? Maybe - but the formula for greatness isn't simply time+instruction+focus, instead it's time+instruction+focus+X. I admit I have no idea what the “X” is and I probably never will.

I will PM you something, it seems you are eager to learn and i am going to help for free. All i ask is if it helps send feed back on AZB. Thanks.

 

[sjm]

Great players are great because, as a result of hard work and long experience, they:

a) prepare properly for their matches, in terms of sleep, eating and practice
b) know when to play offense and when to play defense
c) design their shots with insight and precision
d) execute their selected shots consistently
e) effectively deal with the ebbs and flows in performance, luck and results

 

[JB Cases]

I know this subject comes up a lot and you are always on the side of everybody having unlimited potential. Your arguments have been persuasive enough that I have reconsidered why I put such limits on my own ability to improve. So, in that regard I tap my cue to you. However, I still maintain that not everybody can become a champion player. We are all mere mortals and only have finite amount of time to work with -- champions and bangers a like. So, yes we could all spend the next 5 years trying diligently to learn how to draw the ball 2X the length of the table, or spend that time working on nailing down some difficult position shot, or doing drills or whatever, all in an attempt at continually getting better. What do you think the champions are doing during this time period? They're getting better too. Maybe they are just out competing at a high level but that in and of itself is accomplishing something. In other words, it's very difficult to catch up with them.

I now agree with you that just about anybody can get really good at pool. However, once you get up to that shortstop level (which I'm not at so I'm just citing my opinion) it gets very hard to continue to see improvement. I think a lot of the newer research that you cite, should make everybody rethink what it takes to get good to even great at something. But being the BEST at something is much harder to quantify and I don't believe any psychologist, sociologist, or any type of ologist will ever be able to totally understand this. I no more believe we all have the potential to be a player like Efren Reyes than I believe we could all be trained to be an artist like Michelangelo.

The whole point of my post was just pointing out how much better these guys stroke the ball than us bangers do. Can a banger become one of these guys? Maybe - but the formula for greatness isn't simply time+instruction+focus, instead it's time+instruction+focus+X. I admit I have no idea what the “X” is and I probably never will.

The thing is that when one looks deeper at Efren or Michaelangelo then one sees the intense amount of training and teaching that they were exposed to.

Desire however is what seems to be the X-factor. How does a fat person get fat? They work for it by eating more than others. How does a fat person get thin and stay thin? They work at it.

If you don't get the desire to do the hard work then the hard work is lost on you.

Efren has said that he would observe bangers and when they would fluke a shot he would then practice that same shot until he could do it fairly consistently. So Efren has a library of shots like that to draw on where he has a very good idea what the probability of the outcome is.

To you and me it looks superhuman when he does one of these shots in a game. But it's not. It's simply using time in a much more productive way than most other people do. Think about it, when we go to the pool room and watch bangers we don't generally observe them with the attitude of trying to LEARN something from them. We look at them as if we are superior and are dismissive of what they are doing.

How many of us would do what Efren did even if we had the time? Go to any pool room and look at what the average players are doing? Almost none of them will be really working on their game intensely. Pool is a cruel mistress that allows decent players to glimpse greatness once in a while and makes them believe that this level is easier to obtain than it actually is.

So until we can replicate the type of training and conditions that Efrens and Ralf Souquets have we can't really know what we can achieve as players. Actually that's not entirely true because the very fact that great players exist in a world where there is no real steady path to being a professional is proof positive that their desire overcomes their environments.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[JB Cases]

I know this subject comes up a lot and you are always on the side of everybody having unlimited potential. Your arguments have been persuasive enough that I have reconsidered why I put such limits on my own ability to improve. So, in that regard I tap my cue to you. However, I still maintain that not everybody can become a champion player. We are all mere mortals and only have finite amount of time to work with -- champions and bangers a like. So, yes we could all spend the next 5 years trying diligently to learn how to draw the ball 2X the length of the table, or spend that time working on nailing down some difficult position shot, or doing drills or whatever, all in an attempt at continually getting better. What do you think the champions are doing during this time period? They're getting better too. Maybe they are just out competing at a high level but that in and of itself is accomplishing something. In other words, it's very difficult to catch up with them.

I now agree with you that just about anybody can get really good at pool. However, once you get up to that shortstop level (which I'm not at so I'm just citing my opinion) it gets very hard to continue to see improvement. I think a lot of the newer research that you cite, should make everybody rethink what it takes to get good to even great at something. But being the BEST at something is much harder to quantify and I don't believe any psychologist, sociologist, or any type of ologist will ever be able to totally understand this. I no more believe we all have the potential to be a player like Efren Reyes than I believe we could all be trained to be an artist like Michelangelo.

The whole point of my post was just pointing out how much better these guys stroke the ball than us bangers do. Can a banger become one of these guys? Maybe - but the formula for greatness isn't simply time+instruction+focus, instead it's time+instruction+focus+X. I admit I have no idea what the “X” is and I probably never will.

You should read the Talent Code and Talent is Overrated. Both of these books will answer every question and observation you made here.

There is certainly a "something" that makes an Efren stand above his peers who also had similar experiences. But the rumor is that there was a player in the Philippines who was even better than Efren who unfortunately was murdered.

Which really ties into the Confucian idea that there is always a heaven above the heaven.

 

[naji]

You totally missed what Gerry was saying.

No i did not, he is saying "EXPECTATION! and pros have special ability to expect they are going to make the ball and it will go". When we do not know why pros are good we invent terms and language, like expectation, play by feel, have more focus than us normal people, mind power, all these are none sense in my book, and discourage players from mastering pool. There are lots of knowledge and secrets to be learned once mastered practice becomes fun because you will be making every ball and know if you miss why you missed. I am not just talking i mean what i say. Sorry Neil this is my opinion and it is as a result of my recent discovery of all knowledge/secrets of pool. Any one with no disability will be able to be pro if they put the time and effort with right learning material and instructor.

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[naji]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I just don't understand why you would think that any of those terms actually discourages anyone from mastering pool. Especially when it has been proven time and time again just the opposite.

Mainly because i reach a level with pool knowledge where i know if you do not do every shot by the book you will miss. All those terms lead us and me in particular to believe that those pros are gifted players and i will never get there, so with my limited time in the past i was discouraged to dig deep into pool until recently, oh boy what i find is stunning to me, and i am sure to many others.

 

[Neil]

...........

 

[naji]

Some do believe in just natural talent, many of us don't though. That has been debated on here a number of times. How good you get depends on what kind of and how much training you have, coupled with desire and belief in yourself.

What is it that you feel you have found out?

Great now we are talking-thanks.

What i have found, Lots of stuff. from how to properly aim, proven by shooting combinations with accuracy and consistency, how to use focus, not just focus, how to associate focus with stroke and timing, how to pocket every possible shot on table using any english or no english, shoot fast, slow, jacked up, near rail you name it, how to rarely miss a power draw or follow, just to name few.

 

[thefonz]

just gggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrreat!!!!!!!!!!!!

even the most gifted players sometimes don't achieve much.
a flamboyant stroke and flashy shots doesn't win tournaments

ie. there is nothing flashy about ralph souquet, or buddy hall for that matter.
but man can those guys make the game look simple. they should both collaborate on a new pool book.....

....An Idiot's Guide to Positional Play and Cueball Control.

other than the above, practice, focus, belief in ones abilities are the keys to success.

 

[jaybanthony]

I do not believe that their greatness is solely or even mainly the result of their stroke. They have a born with ability to stay calm under pressure, they actually like it. Most of us wilt under the most intense pressure whether we have a great stroke or not.

I have to respectfully disagree, the ability to stay calm under pressure is learnt, it comes from the desire to win. No one is born with anything. All success in life is derived from passion and desire, all traits that can be developed. That is my belief.

 

[Mr. J]

Pros know most all the shots...

The Pros are who they are because of many things...

They Know all the shots...

This means that they can feel all the shots...

They have practiced all of them many times, and shot them when needed many times, under all kinds of conditions...

The Pros are who they are because they will not pull the trigger until all is felt and known of the shot in front of them, they will execute when they feel that the ball is in for sure, and the cue ball will definately go where they want it to...

They know it, They feel it, then they execute when the moment is all good and well...(for them)...

Mr. J.

 

[duckie]

Ever so often, someone comes along and raises the bar of what is considered excellent in performance. Sometimes the bar is such that it can never or will take a while for it to be reached.

These few just are gifted. There is nothing you can do to match how gifted they are. It isn't one thing that makes them so as some would like to believe but the ability to put everything together over and over again and then challenge themselves to do better.

Look at the top level of F1 and MotoGP. There are one or two racers that just check out over and over again in races. They really don't have any more or less drive, work ethics, talent and so on as the others at that level.

They just have something extra, the x factor. And that is something you either have or don't.

 

[TheThaiger]

Ever so often, someone comes along and raises the bar of what is considered excellent in performance. Sometimes the bar is such that it can never or will take a while for it to be reached.

These few just are gifted. There is nothing you can do to match how gifted they are. It isn't one thing that makes them so as some would like to believe but the ability to put everything together over and over again and then challenge themselves to do better.

Look at the top level of F1 and MotoGP. There are one or two racers that just check out over and over again in races. They really don't have any more or less drive, work ethics, talent and so on as the others at that level.

They just have something extra, the x factor. And that is something you either have or don't.

In terms of F1, a good car helps...

 

[TheThaiger]

No one is born with anything.

Eh? This is palpably untrue.

 

[Gerry]

Great now we are talking-thanks.

What i have found, Lots of stuff. from how to properly aim, proven by shooting combinations with accuracy and consistency, how to use focus, not just focus, how to associate focus with stroke and timing, how to pocket every possible shot on table using any english or no english, shoot fast, slow, jacked up, near rail you name it, how to rarely miss a power draw or follow, just to name few.

this post is my point exactly naji. Now that you have learned many new things, you now expect to make these shots that before to you seemed very difficult. At one time we all were happy to just roll the balls in.....now you can make the same shots 10 different ways with the expectation it is going to go in....thats what I meant....not that any pro has any special gift.....just more experience/confidence stemming from the years of learning.

G.

 

[naji]

this post is my point exactly naji. Now that you have learned many new things, you now expect to make these shots that before to you seemed very difficult. At one time we all were happy to just roll the balls in.....now you can make the same shots 10 different ways with the expectation it is going to go in....thats what I meant....not that any pro has any special gift.....just more experience/confidence stemming from the years of learning.

G.

Thanks Gerry, apologize if i miss interpreted your intentions.