SIMONIS 860 vs SIMONIS 760
- Thread starter bbb
- Start date
From my own experience i had both on the same table. 760 is definately faster but plays unnatural. 760 makes shooting some shots very different. The 760 will make the cueball along with object balls seem to slide more than with 860. It's not like it is not playable with 760 but how many rooms will have this kind of setup? Most poolhalls if they even have simonis will be 860 because it lasts a bit longer under normal use and it is the defacto standard. I prefer the 860 because it emulates more of what i would see when I go out and play at a poolhall. If you are into other types of practice( trick shots, artistic pool, masse shots) then I would have second thoughts.
760 contains more nylon than wool compared to 860, hence faster roll of the ball. What cloth is best for you depends on your game of choice. If you play 14.1 most, you'd better go for 760 (better balls spread on the breaks). 860 is the way to go for a 9-ball player.
Strickland also advocated for using 860 on the table bed and 760 on the rails (I don't remember the exact reasoning but it was in the sake of better playability, Earl's way at least). I also remember he said 760 rails wear less.
Strickland also advocated for using 860 on the table bed and 760 on the rails (I don't remember the exact reasoning but it was in the sake of better playability, Earl's way at least). I also remember he said 760 rails wear less.
Simonis 760 is going to play faster than 860. 760 is 70% wool and 30% nylon whereas 860 is 90% wool and 10% nylon. Hope this helps!
When i say unnatural i mean for pocket billiards...
The 860 is a great cloth. Don't know about 760 but I have had 860 for a few years. Fast cloth also. And it lasts a long time. Have played and played on this table for years,,,,allot of games!!!
It's worn thin now but still plays well. Needs to be replaced but it is lightening fast ,,all wore out. lol
It's a Valley,,7 1/2 footer and I can hit 9 rails side to side!!
It's worn thin now but still plays well. Needs to be replaced but it is lightening fast ,,all wore out. lol
It's a Valley,,7 1/2 footer and I can hit 9 rails side to side!!
That speed is not coming from the cloth, that's coming from the rails...and the cue ball bouncing/hopping off the rails
760 has the same wool/nylon blend as the 860HR, 70%wool/30%nylon, where as the normal 860 is 90%wool/10%nylon. The main difference is that the weave being 177 threads per inch. They all three use the same 177 thread per inch, but the 760 uses thinner, as in not as thick threads to weave the 177 thread count, therefore creating a playing surface with less resistance to ball roll, meaning a faster cloth on the playing surface. 760 is most commonly used for pattern playing games where the speed of the balls is more important than the speed of the cue ball, ie: 14.1, 8ball, banks. Games that require a slower cue ball, such as 1pocket, 9ball, 10ball use the 860 more often, as the speed of the object balls are not really noticed as they're being pocketed, whereas the cue ball might be sent around the table 3 rails after pocketing the ball...and the less travel of the cue ball...the better it is...or it has a better chance of finding a hole to drop in. Not only that, in 1pocket, you don't want a run away cue ball after cross corner banking an object ball with a good stroke...you WANT to know that the cue ball is NOT going to go further than your stroke intended it to go.
Hope that makes sense to you guys:grin:
Glen
That speed is not coming from the cloth, that's coming from the rails...and the cue ball bouncing/hopping off the rails
The speed IS coming from the cloth,,,although,,, I agree the rails have allot to do with it,,,they are very active on this . But the cloth being worn smooth and tight has more to do with it than anything,,guaranteed!!!! The cue has allot of time spent on the cloth going 9 rails.
Tell me what table you can get 6-7-8 rails ,side to side. Go give it a try . Bet you wont get 6 on most tables,,and that is hitting as hard as you can .
I have only got 9 once and the cue barely touched.(very close a couple other times) Can get 8 often .
The only reason I ever tried this in the first place is because table is lightening fast.
One more thing,,if the cue is jumping and bouncing around it will slow it down quite a bit.
did you just start an argument about table mechanics with RKC? I think I see a large asteroid being hurled in your direction
I've spent almost 30 years working on pool tables, use to recover over 1,000 bar tables a year for more than 300 bars in Washington state so I have all the experience in the world to tell you the speed of which your are claiming your table has,......is NOT from the cloth, it is in FACT being produced by the rails on your table. Simonis in general slows DOWN as it wears beyond worn out, as in it increases friction against the balls. There is no way in hell a table if it plays right...will bank the cue ball side to side 9 rails, hell you can't even do that on a Billiard table with Carrom cloth on it, and that type of cloth is almost the same thickness as a pair of pantyhose! I'm NOT saying your table don't bank the cue ball 9 times back and forth side to side, but what I AM saying...is it's NOT because of the cloth, that is totally because of the cushions not being correct...period! I've been working with Simonis cloth since 1983...and I know enough about the cloth and this industry to call BS to this kind of claim. I've changed cloth on Valley tables that was more than worn out...to the point that there was NO CLOTH on the slate where the spot is...nothing but bare slate...and it never played with the speed you claim!!!
If there's ANY one in this industry that can speak about the effects of how Simonis cloth plays as it wears...it IS me, as I pioneered the Simonis 760 in the Pacific Northwest in the bar table industry...LONG before there was any such thing as Simonis 860!
Glen
I've got 760 on my oversize 8 in my home. I like the fast felt, but it has it's disadvantages also.
Making a good shot and having the cue ball over run an intended position is frustrating, 760 is known for this.
On the other hand, you don't have to use as much force to pocket balls and get position, which ultimately mean less deflection for the cue ball because you are not hitting it as hard.
I like the softer side effects of this equation, but if I had to re-felt my table I would go with 860 so when I go play some other places I'm more in tune; and when folks come here to play they are not all over the place.
It's good home field advantage though:thumbup:
Making a good shot and having the cue ball over run an intended position is frustrating, 760 is known for this.
On the other hand, you don't have to use as much force to pocket balls and get position, which ultimately mean less deflection for the cue ball because you are not hitting it as hard.
I like the softer side effects of this equation, but if I had to re-felt my table I would go with 860 so when I go play some other places I'm more in tune; and when folks come here to play they are not all over the place.
It's good home field advantage though:thumbup:
Ok,,if this has nothing do with the cloth as you say. The I can go put any cloth on this and still get 9 rails??? Hell NO!!!!
And that is what you are saying,,go read your own post. All I said is,,,the cloth is why it is going 9 rails. And BTW,,,,,The table plays GREAT and banks great!!!! just fast.
I could care less how many tables you worked on.
If you are going to correct me ,,,,please give the right answer. My table banks 9 rails side to side because the cloth is extremely fast!!! And yep,,,it takes good rails to do this. But without fast cloth there is no way in hell.
Have you ever seen a table that you can make a cue ball hit 8 rails side to side?? Have you ever even tried it??? Because really there is no reason to,,,,,, and why I stated the reason I tried it in the first place!!!!
I have been playing pool for over 30 years. This is the fastest table I have ever seen.
I have not posted on here in quite a long time,,seems there are allot of arrogant know it all shits on here.
Now go back and read your post and see where you went wrong. I don't care about you job,your college degree or your life. Just that wore out 860 is very fast!!!!:thumbup: But hold on??? Hmmm ?? Its because of the rails on my table,,,right?? not the cloth!!!
It's all in black and white above. You can think what you want,,that's fine. LMAO
I didn't correct anyone with my ill knowledge!!
And what did Einstien have to do with Physics?? LMAO
I'm assuming my pizza delivery guy is a Gourmet chef too!!!
Flash5153 I think Glen will show the error of your thinking. You get more rails because the angle (and maybe other factors) of the rails is not set correctly. One way to check this is this: Does the cue ball bounce when it rebounds off the rails? If it does----that may be the problem. They may rebound faster but that does not mean correctly.
Does it bounce???
Does it bounce???
I new an asteroid was coming ....
so what you are saying is that when you have brand new 860 the table banks 4-5 lengths as it should. But after a year of playing on the cloth all of a sudden it banks 9 lengths?
that makes no sense. I want to see a video of this and I also want to see exactly what your rail height is ....
btw, if it banks 9 lengths it would be a waste of time to play on this table as no other table on earth plays this way .....maybe on the moon but not on earth.
I understand what he is saying. That the rails are not set correctly ,Among other things.
No the ball will not bounce off the rail on a medium stroke,,but if you hit it a little harder ,,it will.Not every time though. The rails may be set wrong and contributes why it is so fast.
I never said otherwise. But no one is going to tell me the cloth has nothing to do with the speed of it.
I just put a ball up against the rail. It touches the ball just above center of the ball.
The table plays and banks fine,, you do have to change your game a little on this table. Might have to go two or three rails for a next shot,,where normally you could just stop it. With rail involved in shot or not.
so hit it with a hard stroke if you want to make the ball bounce and stop?
please fix your table ....rail height should be 1 & 7/16 inches ....you are probably at 1 1/4 inches right now.
fix the rail height then count the banks.
then replace the cloth and count the banks
then report back.