Hal Houles CTE in detail
- Thread starter mohrt
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It's a bit late for that!
Why don't you leave this thread alone. It's not the same old people arguing and some good info is coming out. STOP ANTAGONIZING. GET A LIFE.
The fundamental stumbling block I am having with these systems, and I would REALLY like for one of them to be the end-all of aiming, is that they boil aiming down to offsets & pivots --and/or-- treating all shots within a range of angles as the same exact shot.
CTE goes so far as to not care where the pocket is once you've determined if it is a thick, medium, or thin hit (EDIT: and whether you are cutting to the right or left). It seems to me that the shooter does NO aiming of the OB to pocket & only cares if the shots falls into one of three categories. This tells me there is a lot of manipulation going on to make it all appear to work.
Take this series of shot scenarios. How can you shoot "L1-1" the same as "L1-2" and the same as "L1-3" which you must if CTE only cares that they are "thick" hits. What am I missing here?!?!
CTE goes so far as to not care where the pocket is once you've determined if it is a thick, medium, or thin hit (EDIT: and whether you are cutting to the right or left). It seems to me that the shooter does NO aiming of the OB to pocket & only cares if the shots falls into one of three categories. This tells me there is a lot of manipulation going on to make it all appear to work.
Take this series of shot scenarios. How can you shoot "L1-1" the same as "L1-2" and the same as "L1-3" which you must if CTE only cares that they are "thick" hits. What am I missing here?!?!
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There is no diff in accuracy, Stan broke it down to CTE and Edge to abc,
and 1/2 tip pivot,there is no abc reference in a half ball offset
The half ball offset method has a better reference for you set up and easy to repeat .
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TheThaiger
Banned
Well, I had lost all interest in this thread (and aiming posts in general), but now it's suddenly become exciting again.
Stick me on ignore, there's a good chap.
I became introduced to the whole CTE/Pro 1 thing about two weeks ago. I have only had the opportunity to practice it for about an hour, and it did not go well for me. The pivoting was very difficult for me to accomplish correctly. After reading this blog, I have a little more confidence in my own ability to comprehend and execute this now. The information in the blog was very well written and presented, and it certainly cleared up some confusions I had. I will have a few hours later today to play around with this information, and I hope I can manage to execute some of this. I am sure that these systems could greatly enhance my game once I am able to actually perform the required techniques.
Thank you Mohrt for posting this thread, and the link to the blog. I appreciate the time, and flak, you took to do so.
Braden
Thank you Mohrt for posting this thread, and the link to the blog. I appreciate the time, and flak, you took to do so.
Braden
I dont understand? You live under a rock,Figure out how to pivot and address me later. If you knew how silly you really are . With a half ball pivot/offset
you come into the shot on same side every time, you shoot the exact same shot every time. I like Stan but I am not going to lie about which I had rather use. He tells you on the dvd it is EQUAL to a half ball offset/pivot. I choose the half ball offset . INSTEAD of A,B and C reference points. Go learn something before you make yourself look silly
I come into the shot from the inside of the shot angle focusing on the bottom of the OB, When the edge of the CB comes into sight stop. This will be a diff line than CB center to OB edge. Place your back foot and your bridge hand
at the left edge of the CB and Pivot to center.
You can still use the edge to edge or cte reference points if you choose or you can pivot along the shot circle(You can reference Spideys page if
it is still on there)
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I could not have said it better myself. I have messed around with it, and it seems to be deadly on thick cuts. However, I struggle with thin ones.
half ball pivot
Quite simply a pivot in CTE PRO ONE represents a slight rotation to center cue ball.
A pivot can start from a half tip, quarter ball, half ball or from 2 or 3 feet away.
What is critical is that there is a rotation to center cue ball.
In my Basic CTE I use a half tip offset and a fixed edges cue ball. A half ball offset will not give you the same results. 2 completely different offsets. A half ball offset with a fixed edges cue ball is not a good idea in CTE PRO ONE.
So how can a half tip and half ball offset be the same? They each take the tip to the exact verticle axis of the cue ball. Different offsets other than half tip can yeild inconsistencies.
The ultimate accuracies in CTE occur because....if one has the correct objective visuals, they're only a slight rotation away from center cue ball and the shot line. That slight rotation is represented in manual CTE as a half tip, the smallest object fixed pivot I could use.
On my DVD I do not think I used offset with my mention of half ball. When I said half ball, I meant only a turning of one's tip to center cue ball which is a half of the cue ball.
Stan Shuffett
Quite simply a pivot in CTE PRO ONE represents a slight rotation to center cue ball.
A pivot can start from a half tip, quarter ball, half ball or from 2 or 3 feet away.
What is critical is that there is a rotation to center cue ball.
In my Basic CTE I use a half tip offset and a fixed edges cue ball. A half ball offset will not give you the same results. 2 completely different offsets. A half ball offset with a fixed edges cue ball is not a good idea in CTE PRO ONE.
So how can a half tip and half ball offset be the same? They each take the tip to the exact verticle axis of the cue ball. Different offsets other than half tip can yeild inconsistencies.
The ultimate accuracies in CTE occur because....if one has the correct objective visuals, they're only a slight rotation away from center cue ball and the shot line. That slight rotation is represented in manual CTE as a half tip, the smallest object fixed pivot I could use.
On my DVD I do not think I used offset with my mention of half ball. When I said half ball, I meant only a turning of one's tip to center cue ball which is a half of the cue ball.
Stan Shuffett
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Nice to see you back in an aiming thread Stan!
Mosconiac, Neil said it very succinctly. Each of those three shots is slightly different but still within the same "class" of shots, and because of those slight alignment differences it results in 3 different cut angles. I guarantee you I can perform all of the shots from L1 to L3 perfectly, I would be shocked if I missed any of them unless I was doing something extra with the cue ball or I made some sort of physical stroke mistake. And all of the shots can be made using the same routine and starting point (CTE line) and then just varying the secondary aim point and pivot as you progress from thick to thinner cuts.
I gave up trying to figure this out. I know I'm a very technical person and way over-analytical, and when I first saw this I didn't understand it or think it would work. But it does, call it visual intelligence, feel, whatever, I don't care anymore. I think visual intelligence is the most accurate term for it frankly. If somehow I can follow a prescribed set of alignments and pivots and my brain is able to interpolate within that framework and make small adjustments to my routine or pivots that I don't notice, then great, because it's 100% repeatable and I'll do it all day long. The feeling I have when shooting now is so different from before, I no longer wonder if I'm on the right line, I KNOW. It's up to me to miss the shot from there by second guessing myself, fidgeting out of position, making a bad stroke, not adjusting correctly for english, etc.
I'm currently working with a student who is a pretty good player, he saw me make some shots and asked me how I aimed them. I started to explain, and I could tell he didn't believe me. I gave him a page or two of some condensed information that I had from my notes and stuff people have discussed here. He looked it over, and last night I demonstrated for 15 - 30 minutes while he stood behind me.
The whole time, he could watch as I explained what type of shot it was, what I was aiming at, how I was moving into the ball, and which pivot and why. I used both manual pivots and Pro1 to show him, and he said he could see how when I got to center ball I was just locked in. I made short, long, thick, thin, banks, close up shots, etc. and they all went. He could see that I wasn't fidgeting into position, or pivoting differently, or making small adjustments. I picked up my visual alignment, pivoted into place and 1stroked everything. When I see them laughing because they can't believe it's that easy, I know they get it. Now I also told him if he wanted to try it that there is work involved - you have to get comfortable with the visualizations and pivots, learn to trust the shots, learn the adjustments for distance, spin, etc., and incorporate it into your routine. But it's well worth it.
As discussed many times, this may not be for everyone, and if you already pocket balls well then great. But if you have issues with certain types of shots, or lack confidence in your aiming technique, it's worth a shot. Myself and many others on here would be happy to help explain it if you have the materials and are trying to understand it better.
Scott
Mosconiac, Neil said it very succinctly. Each of those three shots is slightly different but still within the same "class" of shots, and because of those slight alignment differences it results in 3 different cut angles. I guarantee you I can perform all of the shots from L1 to L3 perfectly, I would be shocked if I missed any of them unless I was doing something extra with the cue ball or I made some sort of physical stroke mistake. And all of the shots can be made using the same routine and starting point (CTE line) and then just varying the secondary aim point and pivot as you progress from thick to thinner cuts.
I gave up trying to figure this out. I know I'm a very technical person and way over-analytical, and when I first saw this I didn't understand it or think it would work. But it does, call it visual intelligence, feel, whatever, I don't care anymore. I think visual intelligence is the most accurate term for it frankly. If somehow I can follow a prescribed set of alignments and pivots and my brain is able to interpolate within that framework and make small adjustments to my routine or pivots that I don't notice, then great, because it's 100% repeatable and I'll do it all day long. The feeling I have when shooting now is so different from before, I no longer wonder if I'm on the right line, I KNOW. It's up to me to miss the shot from there by second guessing myself, fidgeting out of position, making a bad stroke, not adjusting correctly for english, etc.
I'm currently working with a student who is a pretty good player, he saw me make some shots and asked me how I aimed them. I started to explain, and I could tell he didn't believe me. I gave him a page or two of some condensed information that I had from my notes and stuff people have discussed here. He looked it over, and last night I demonstrated for 15 - 30 minutes while he stood behind me.
The whole time, he could watch as I explained what type of shot it was, what I was aiming at, how I was moving into the ball, and which pivot and why. I used both manual pivots and Pro1 to show him, and he said he could see how when I got to center ball I was just locked in. I made short, long, thick, thin, banks, close up shots, etc. and they all went. He could see that I wasn't fidgeting into position, or pivoting differently, or making small adjustments. I picked up my visual alignment, pivoted into place and 1stroked everything. When I see them laughing because they can't believe it's that easy, I know they get it. Now I also told him if he wanted to try it that there is work involved - you have to get comfortable with the visualizations and pivots, learn to trust the shots, learn the adjustments for distance, spin, etc., and incorporate it into your routine. But it's well worth it.
As discussed many times, this may not be for everyone, and if you already pocket balls well then great. But if you have issues with certain types of shots, or lack confidence in your aiming technique, it's worth a shot. Myself and many others on here would be happy to help explain it if you have the materials and are trying to understand it better.
Scott
What you are saying has been discussed a lot in this forum in the past. Contrary to some teachings of CTE in the past, we now know that we do care where the pocket is beyond just identifying a shot as thick, thin, or real thin.
If your three shots were placed on a flat surface without a target pocket, and you ritually performed the CTE prescription for thick cuts for each shot, all three would be cut at the same angle. If you did that on a pool table, the same thing would happen and you'd probably miss one or more of the shots.
But Stan cleared up this issue for us last year. What is different for the three shots on a pool table is that the eyes are in different positions for the three shots. And how does one know where to put his eyes? It is knowledge gained from experience. I'll repeat here something I wrote last year:
[Stan] is acknowledging that the basic set of prescriptions, if executed precisely the same way every time, would create only a small number of cut angles for a given CB-OB distance. So that issue should be settled. What, then, creates the additional cut angles; what turns a discrete method into a continuous method -- one with enough cut angles to pocket all shots? Where is the "feel" being introduced? Stan has now answered that question -- it is different eye positions for the same set of visuals. In other words, for any particular shot and alignment-menu choice, such as this:
CB-OB distance = 3 feet
cut to left
secondary alignment line to "B"
bridge length = 8"
cue offset = 1/2 tip
pivot from left to right
multiple cut angles can be achieved by viewing the CTEL and secondary alignment line from different eye positions.
How does one know where to put his eyes? It is knowledge gained from experience. Stan did not acknowledge that this is "feel," but I'm sure many of us would view it that way, as feel in any aiming method is developed from experience in using the method.
So there we have it. Stan's manual CTE depends upon utilizing multiple eye positions within each of the basic 6 alignments. The feel or additional knowledge is not introduced by varying the offset, or by varying the bridge length (beyond what Stan prescribes), or by fudging the pivot -- it comes from knowing where to place the eyes while still somehow holding to the underlying pair of visuals for each of the prescriptions.
I hope this really puts an end to the squabbles. Manual CTE is not some voodoo hocus pocus. It is not geometric magic. There are no supernatural powers to align-&-pivot methods. It doesn't work because of numerology -- the table being 1x2 or 90 being the sum of 45, 30, and 15. It works by utilizing a small number of reference alignments that the player has learned to fine tune based on his explicit knowledge of where the pocket is and the appearance of the cut angle needed for the shot, i.e., his experience-based knowledge of the shot needed.
CB-OB distance = 3 feet
cut to left
secondary alignment line to "B"
bridge length = 8"
cue offset = 1/2 tip
pivot from left to right
multiple cut angles can be achieved by viewing the CTEL and secondary alignment line from different eye positions.
How does one know where to put his eyes? It is knowledge gained from experience. Stan did not acknowledge that this is "feel," but I'm sure many of us would view it that way, as feel in any aiming method is developed from experience in using the method.
So there we have it. Stan's manual CTE depends upon utilizing multiple eye positions within each of the basic 6 alignments. The feel or additional knowledge is not introduced by varying the offset, or by varying the bridge length (beyond what Stan prescribes), or by fudging the pivot -- it comes from knowing where to place the eyes while still somehow holding to the underlying pair of visuals for each of the prescriptions.
I hope this really puts an end to the squabbles. Manual CTE is not some voodoo hocus pocus. It is not geometric magic. There are no supernatural powers to align-&-pivot methods. It doesn't work because of numerology -- the table being 1x2 or 90 being the sum of 45, 30, and 15. It works by utilizing a small number of reference alignments that the player has learned to fine tune based on his explicit knowledge of where the pocket is and the appearance of the cut angle needed for the shot, i.e., his experience-based knowledge of the shot needed.
I may have not been clear , I was not trying to reference a half ball off set with the reference points you use in pro 1. I hope you didnt take it as a knock.As I said before I am so used to a half ball offset that it is more natural to me and very accurate . I miss balls with either some times and then I may not miss a ball at all.
I think Pro 1 is great. I dont think I was integrating the 2 methods or trying to describe or clear up anything to do with Pro one. The only reason I was in this thread is because of the OP talking about Half Ball pivots coming in from 1 side, Which struck my interest because I use a VERY similar method of CTE.
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