PAY OR PLAY Introducing a new tournament format, need feedback

[2andOUT]

so with the rebuys/redraws, how do you determine the final payout.

In the example you gave, there are over 10k in entry fees for first 2 rounds, with only $3100 payback.

most players want to know how much $$ in pot before entering. It seems like it would be ever changing up until the 32 round, if I am figuring this correctly.

It seems really confusing, but maybe watching it once, or playing it in once for $5 would help me understand.

 

[FASTEJ]

so with the rebuys/redraws, how do you determine the final payout.

In the example you gave, there are over 10k in entry fees for first 2 rounds, with only $3100 payback.

most players want to know how much $$ in pot before entering. It seems like it would be ever changing up until the 32 round, if I am figuring this correctly.

It seems really confusing, but maybe watching it once, or playing it in once for $5 would help me understand.

The final payout is what is listed with a full bracket.

There are not over 10k in entry fees for the first 2 rounds. In the beginning of the tournament of the example above, the total number of Level 1 spots is 1024, Level 2 512, Level 3 256, ... Level 6 32. So for example sake lets say that the first person to buy into the tournament wants to buy in at Level 6 for $160. Then the board displaying the total spots available would look like this: Level 1 remaining-992, Level 2 remaining-496, Level 3 remaining-248, Level 4 remaining-124, Level 5 remaining-62, and Level 6 remaining-31 (Figuring this out early in the tournament is easy, but down the road gets complicated).

There are many ways to determine the final payout. If the bracket does not fill up by the determined cutoff time, the plan is to give the remaining players a couple of options and have them vote.

In general, my opinion is that 1st place should equal about 10x the highest available buy in. Also, I think this format should only pay the first four spots (maybe top 8 or 16 if the bracket size is very large, like a 32678 player bracket or higher). That is why the 1st place payout for the example above is $1600 for 1st place.

The priority is to get 1st place money equal to what is advertised. So the priority would be that all available prize money goes towards 1st place until the 1st place prize is reached. Then the available prize money would go towards 2nd place until that is reached, then 3rd and 4th equally after that. The reason for this is that most people are determining how much they would buy in at for a chance at a 1st place prize.
So for the example above, would you pay $5, $10, $20, $40, $80, or $160 for a shot at a $1600 1st prize, and how many of each level would you buy in for.
So following this line of thinking, it wouldn't be far fetched that if the bracket doesn't fill up, there would be a possibility of there being only 1st place paid, assuming the remaining players vote to do it that way.

 

[swami4u]

Just in case you were being sarcastic, this format is good for people that in fact just want to practice. Most people don't practice a game of one pocket unless they are playing somebody else. But people do practice 10 ball.
This is the structure for the PAY OR PLAY 10 BALL: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260595

As you can see, Level 1 entry is only $1. This means two things when it comes to practice:
1. You can match up with somebody else for $1 and practice against somebody that you dont know. You still have a chance at winning $500-$2500.
2. You can buy a Level 2 entry for $2. You get to play a match of 10 Ball against yourself (practice game), and you are guaranteed to play at least one more game against somebody in the draw. So you get practice, play at least two games of 10 ball, maybe more, and also still have a chance at winning $500-$2500 for just $2.

In this matter, this structure helps bring amateur money into pro prool. Instead of somebody paying table time just to practice, they can still practice AND be entered in a tournament (with a chance for a payout) for about the same price.

If i say i like it, i like it.....i don't mix words up to much........

"Humm, that's really good, so if you want to just get practice you spend 160 and get to play many people. I like it!"
"So if you like more bang for your buck, this structure is the best."

I was giving a compliment on the new format. Good luck with it, hope it works out.

 

[FASTEJ]

If i say i like it, i like it.....i don't mix words up to much........

"Humm, that's really good, so if you want to just get practice you spend 160 and get to play many people. I like it!"
"So if you like more bang for your buck, this structure is the best."

I was giving a compliment on the new format. Good luck with it, hope it works out.

Thank you for the support.

 

[FASTEJ]

Just a bump for more feedback.

Update:

ONE POCKET MINI TOURNAMENT ON MON FEB 13, RACE TO 23 BALLS AT USBTC IN RENO

 

[stuckart]

The Beauty of this Tournament is in the Eye of the BeerHolder!

It's an interesting concept and I hope for the best.

Might have been a little easier to get buy-in if you started down a level or two. Instead of 1024 person bracket, which there isn't enough players at, maybe starting lower would be easier for persons to realize.

For sake of clarification to those still puzzled let's say it's a 256 person chart.

If 256 persons each pay $5, then the bracket is full.
If 128 persons each pay $10, then the bracket is full.
If 64 persons each pay $20, then the bracket is full.
etc.

Here's the confusing parts, I think.

A 256 person tourney goes down to 128 in rd 2, 64 in rd 3, etc.

If it's a 256 person tournament, but 1 person buys in for $40 at the 32 player level, the remaining Tree Structure up from 32 to the 256 is all Locked up. That person paying $40 just took 8 $5 spots at the 256 person level.

In this tourney with 1024 spots, if someone wanted they could pay $160 which gets them to the Final 32. In retrospect they just purchased every single $5 spot in that part of the bracket, 32 spots at $5, which guarantees that they are in the final 32. Their first actual match could be against someone who paid $5, but had to win 5 matches to get there.

 

[3andstop]

I didn't really follow the whole thing, but, I have a question. You say you can buy back in until the bracket is full.

Is there some kind of rush to get to the tournament director to buy in first?

Is there some kind of structured order to be able to buy back or is it first come first shove?

If I'm still in my game and I see the bracket getting full, do I take a time out to buy back in and hope I loose the game I'm currently playing?

That is what initially came to my mind.

 

[stuckart]

I didn't really follow the whole thing, but, I have a question. You say you can buy back in until the bracket is full.

Is there some kind of rush to get to the tournament director to buy in first?

Is there some kind of structured order to be able to buy back or is it first come first shove?

If I'm still in my game and I see the bracket getting full, do I take a time out to buy back in and hope I loose the game I'm currently playing?

That is what initially came to my mind.

I thought the same thing. How could you buy back in? All the spots are full with people who actually won their matches. Only way I could see it is if there is 80 spots at a level and only 50 some players, instead of getting a bye, you can take one of these spots?!?!?!

 

[FASTEJ]

If it's a 256 person tournament, but 1 person buys in for $40 at the 32 player level, the remaining Tree Structure up from 32 to the 256 is all Locked up. That person paying $40 just took 8 $5 spots at the 256 person level.

In this tourney with 1024 spots, if someone wanted they could pay $160 which gets them to the Final 32. In retrospect they just purchased every single $5 spot in that part of the bracket, 32 spots at $5, which guarantees that they are in the final 32. Their first actual match could be against someone who paid $5, but had to win 5 matches to get there.

This is exactly right, hence the name of the format PAY OR PLAY. Glad you understood it. You can pay more for the spot in the final 32, or you can pay less and try to get their by playing your way in. The first option your spot is guaranteed. The second option you can try to get there and if you happen to lose, you can try again (assuming there are spots remaining). So if you think you can win 5 matches in a row within 32 separate tries, you save some money.

 

[FASTEJ]

I didn't really follow the whole thing, but, I have a question. You say you can buy back in until the bracket is full.

Is there some kind of rush to get to the tournament director to buy in first?

Is there some kind of structured order to be able to buy back or is it first come first shove?

If I'm still in my game and I see the bracket getting full, do I take a time out to buy back in and hope I loose the game I'm currently playing?

That is what initially came to my mind.

It is first come first serve. This is the answer to the first two questions.

This is a multi-entry tournament. You are not limited to buying in one spot at a time. You can buy as many spots at any level at any time.

I thought I put this in another post but I will repeat it here just in case anybody missed it. There will be a board at the tournament desk that will state how many spots remain at each level.

From post #22
In the beginning of the tournament of the example above, the total number of Level 1 spots is 1024, Level 2 512, Level 3 256, ... Level 6 32. So for example sake lets say that the first person to buy into the tournament wants to buy in at Level 6 for $160. Then the board displaying the total spots available would look like this: Level 1 remaining-992, Level 2 remaining-496, Level 3 remaining-248, Level 4 remaining-124, Level 5 remaining-62, and Level 6 remaining-31 (Figuring this out early in the tournament is easy, but down the road gets complicated).

 

[APA Operator]

Interesting format. I'm a little confused about how and when names appear at different places in the bracket. Can you explain what you mean by "draw at random for their placement in the bracket"? Is that happening at sign-up time, or is there some pre-determined cutoff time for each level, at which point that level is drawn?

 

[APA Operator]

The final payout is what is listed with a full bracket.

In the beginning of the tournament of the example above, the total number of Level 1 spots is 1024, Level 2 512, Level 3 256, ... Level 6 32. So for example sake lets say that the first person to buy into the tournament wants to buy in at Level 6 for $160. Then the board displaying the total spots available would look like this: Level 1 remaining-992, Level 2 remaining-496, Level 3 remaining-248, Level 4 remaining-124, Level 5 remaining-62, and Level 6 remaining-31 (Figuring this out early in the tournament is easy, but down the road gets complicated).

For me it seems to get complicated with the third entry. What would the numbers be if the first person buys in at level 6, the second person at level 3 and the third person also at level 3?

 

[FASTEJ]

Interesting format. I'm a little confused about how and when names appear at different places in the bracket. Can you explain what you mean by "draw at random for their placement in the bracket"? Is that happening at sign-up time, or is there some pre-determined cutoff time for each level, at which point that level is drawn?

There are a couple of ways the players draw at random. There are numerous ways to enter and it depends on the way each player enters. The quick answer is that it could happen at sign up time and it could happen after you play your first match.

If you are buying an entry and did not choose to play someone for that first match, you will draw for your place in the bracket at that specific moment in time.
Example: For the structure above, you the player wishes to buy a Level 1 entry for $5. You will then draw from a bag of a full rack of billiards balls and then be placed in the bracket. Lets assume that you drew match A-1-1. That means that you will wait until another person draws that same match before you play.

If you and another person decide to buy a Level 1 entry and also agree to play each other, you will play your one game of One Pocket and the winner will draw for their place in the bracket.
Example: You and player B decide to buy entry Level 1 and also decide to play each other. You play 1 game of One Pocket and player B wins. Player B then comes to the tournament desk and draws match A-1-2. You will then be placed at match A-1-2 with player B advancing to Level 2.

This can be done in the same manner at higher levels. In the first example you buy in at Level 1 with no opponent. This example you buy in at Level 3 with no opponent.
Example: You buy a Level 3 entry for $20 and draw match B-1-1. You will then be placed at that spot in the bracket, but since you bought a Level 3 entry, you will also be placed in match B-1-2. In essence you bought the four Level 1 spots in matches B-1-1 and B-1-2, which in turn advances you to Level 3 (More or less you play yourself in each match in Level 1, and the winners of the two matches play each other in Level 2, which is yourself again, and that means you advance to Level 3). You are then waiting for your Level 4 match.

This can also be done with two players buying in at higher levels and choosing to play each other.
Example: You buy in at Level 3 and player B buys in at Level 3. You play a race to 2 and you win. As the winner you then draw match A-2-4. Your name will be placed in matches A-2-3 and A-2-4 in Level 1 and player B's name will be place in match A-2-1 and A-2-2 in Level. The bracket will show that you each advanced to Level 3 and played each other with you advancing to Level 4.

It might seem very confusing written in words, but when its done in person, it is actually very easy to understand.

 

[FASTEJ]

For me it seems to get complicated with the third entry. What would the numbers be if the first person buys in at level 6, the second person at level 3 and the third person also at level 3?

With that scenario the board would read like this:
Level 1 remaining-984, Level 2 remaining-492, Level 3 remaining-246, Level 4 remaining-123, Level 5 remaining-61, and Level 6 remaining-30.

Everything is based on Level 1 entries remaining. It gets very complicated and too long to explain here, but there is a system on how people are placed, and that all depends on what matches they draw at random.

 

[APA Operator]

There are a couple of ways the players draw at random. There are numerous ways to enter and it depends on the way each player enters.

If you are buying an entry and did not choose to play someone for that first match, you will draw for your place in the bracket at that specific moment in time.
Example: For the structure above, you the player wishes to buy a Level 1 entry for $5. You will then draw from a bag of a full rack of billiards balls and then be placed in the bracket. Lets assume that you drew match A-1-1. That means that you will wait until another person draws that same match before you play.

If you and another person decide to buy a Level 1 entry and also agree to play each other, you will play your one game and the winner will draw for their place in the bracket.
Example: You and player B decide to buy entry Level 1 and also decide to play each other. You play 1 game of One Pocket and player B wins. Player B then comes to the tournament desk and draws match A-1-2. You will then be placed at match A-1-2 with player B advancing to Level 2.

I imagined it would work that way. There has to be a cutoff for each level, right? I wouldn't want to wait forever to play a level 1 match.

Similarly, what do you do when the level 1 cutoff comes and all the players are on the A-1 through A-256 side and the other side of the bracket is empty because the random draws happened to go that way? Do you pray that a lot of players buy higher-level entries on the other side of the bracket so someone doesn't get a bye all the way to the finals?

If a player can see the names on the bracket before the cutoff time, might they be induced to wait until a big name player has an opponent before they buy a slot, making their placement on the bracket somewhat less than random? Or perhaps they would be induced to buy in at a higher level to avoid that player for a good portion of the event?

I don't know if any of these are things you want to try to avoid, but I do think that you should at least make people aware of them ahead of time, so they know what they are getting into. Not everyone bothers to think about this stuff, then when they actually see it happen they become a very angry player at the tournament desk. Perhaps you should include a disclaimer that says "There is some strategy involved in deciding when and at what level to enter this tournament - those who strategize well may have an advantage in the early rounds." Then you could at least tell those angry players "Hey, we told you what you were getting into."

 

[APA Operator]

With that scenario the board would read like this:
Level 1 remaining-984, Level 2 remaining-492, Level 3 remaining-246, Level 4 remaining-123, Level 5 remaining-61, and Level 6 remaining-30.

Everything is based on Level 1 entries remaining. It gets very complicated and too long to explain here, but there is a system on how people are placed, and that all depends on what matches they draw at random.

I get the numbers for the first three levels, but couldn't the two random level 3 matches prevent two different matches at each level above from being purchased? Couldn't the numbers also look like this:
Level 1 remaining-984, Level 2 remaining-492, Level 3 remaining-246, Level 4 remaining-122, Level 5 remaining-60, and Level 6 remaining-29

I think there are actually eight different combinations of numbers that could result if the third entry is level 3, sixteen if it's level 2, and 32 if it's level 1. That's why it gets confusing for me at the third entry - what am I missing?

It's probably easier to understand my question if we talk about Level 1. Suppose the first 32 entries are all level 1. If you pick 32 random spots in level 1, you could eliminate one level 6 spot (if they happen to be the 32 leaf nodes of that subtree) or you could eliminate all of the level 6 spots (if the level 1 spots are each in a different level 6 subtree).

 

[FASTEJ]

I imagined it would work that way. There has to be a cutoff for each level, right? I wouldn't want to wait forever to play a level 1 match.

Similarly, what do you do when the level 1 cutoff comes and all the players are on the A-1 through A-256 side and the other side of the bracket is empty because the random draws happened to go that way? Do you pray that a lot of players buy higher-level entries on the other side of the bracket so someone doesn't get a bye all the way to the finals?

If a player can see the names on the bracket before the cutoff time, might they be induced to wait until a big name player has an opponent before they buy a slot, making their placement on the bracket somewhat less than random? Or perhaps they would be induced to buy in at a higher level to avoid that player for a good portion of the event?

I don't know if any of these are things you want to try to avoid, but I do think that you should at least make people aware of them ahead of time, so they know what they are getting into. Not everyone bothers to think about this stuff, then when they actually see it happen they become a very angry player at the tournament desk. Perhaps you should include a disclaimer that says "There is some strategy involved in deciding when and at what level to enter this tournament - those who strategize well may have an advantage in the early rounds." Then you could at least tell those angry players "Hey, we told you what you were getting into."

There basically is a cutoff time to allow for the tournament to play out. It all depends on how many entries there are at the time. You have to look at how many matches are left to be played and how much time is available until the tables can no longer be used. Again I have a protocol for this but it is way to long to post.

As for the strategy, you are absolutely right. The smart people might figure out how to use this to their advantage. It might work for them or it might not. Except that I have not mentioned that all names are going to be kept confidential until the match is ready to be played. The board will just show that a player occupies that spot, but there will be no name there. Players will also have the right to waive the anonymity and have me place their name in their spots. Only the final 32 names will be revealed when it gets to that point.

 

[FASTEJ]

I get the numbers for the first three levels, but couldn't the two random level 3 matches prevent two different matches at each level above from being purchased? Couldn't the numbers also look like this:
Level 1 remaining-984, Level 2 remaining-492, Level 3 remaining-246, Level 4 remaining-122, Level 5 remaining-60, and Level 6 remaining-29

I think there are actually eight different combinations of numbers that could result if the third entry is level 3, sixteen if it's level 2, and 32 if it's level 1. That's why it gets confusing for me at the third entry - what am I missing?

It's probably easier to understand my question if we talk about Level 1. Suppose the first 32 entries are all level 1. If you pick 32 random spots in level 1, you could eliminate one level 6 spot (if they happen to be the 32 leaf nodes of that subtree) or you could eliminate all of the level 6 spots (if the level 1 spots are each in a different level 6 subtree).

You are correct, but again, I have a protocol that is set and is too long to explain. In short, there is protocol to make entry at higher available so long as there are enough Level 1 spots remaining to warrant that entry. For example, at the end there are only 32 Level 1 spots remaining, all in different parts of the bracket. There is a way to allow the next person to buy a Level 6 entry, and depending on where he draws at random, the others will be moved accordingly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... 1024 player single elimination bracket (May be expanded to 2048 if high demand) Played on 9 ft Diamonds
Players can buy in at any level and/or rebuy as many times as they like until the bracket is full.

1st $1600
2nd $800
3rd/4th $300
With Full Bracket of 1024

Level----------Round of--------Race to-----Entry Fee
1------------------1024-------------1------------$5
2-------------------512--------------1-----------$10
3-------------------256--------------2-----------$20
4-------------------128--------------2-----------$40
5--------------------64--------------2------------$80
6--------------------32--------------3------------$160
7--------------------16--------------3--------------------------
8-------------8 (Quarter-final)-----3--------------------------
9-------------4 (Semi-final)--------4------------Loser 3rd/4th
10---------------2 (Final)-----------5------------Loser 2nd Winner 1st

So in this example a player has a shot at winning $1600 for as little as $5!

Please ask any questions about the format and I will answer them the best I can. This will provide clarity for others that are confused.

So for this 1024-spot bracket, if it fills up by any combination of entries, the total of entry fees is $5120. You are paying out a total of $3000. This seems like a bad deal compared to most tournaments. Have I read this wrong?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... there would be a possibility of there being only 1st place paid, assuming the remaining players vote to do it that way.

If you have a vote of the players about how the prizes should be distributed I think you will also have a riot. I think you have to make all those decisions before the tournament starts. Players don't like surprises about what may have happened to their money. A lot of the players at your tournament will have been at the Peppermill about a year ago.