PAY OR PLAY Introducing a new tournament format, need feedback

Bob,

Edward is going to try this new format during our 'off hours'. I welcome new ideas and this is a chance to see if it will work and to make modificaitons etc. Edward will be there to explain things to all the players.

This is an event that people may decide to play. It will give Edward some feedback as to how to 'make it work'. This is strictly his show and is independent of the other events.


This has NOTHING to do with the US Bar Table Championships or the World PPA event. Those are both standard formats.Do not confuse us with the fiasco that occured at the Peppermill last year.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain this.

Mark Griffin





Bob Jewett said:
If you have a vote of the players about how the prizes should be distributed I think you will also have a riot. I think you have to make all those decisions before the tournament starts. Players don't like surprises about what may have happened to their money. A lot of the players at your tournament will have been at the Peppermill about a year ago.
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FASTEJ said:
You are correct, but again, I have a protocol that is set and is too long to explain. In short, there is protocol to make entry at higher available so long as there are enough Level 1 spots remaining to warrant that entry. For example, at the end there are only 32 Level 1 spots remaining, all in different parts of the bracket. There is a way to allow the next person to buy a Level 6 entry, and depending on where he draws at random, the others will be moved accordingly.
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Ok, so except for level 6, all randomly drawn spots are preliminary and could be changed at any time. If there are no names on the bracket and players get moved, how do they know where they are on the bracket?

At some point you have to play matches. Once some level 1 matches have been played and players have advanced to level 2 spots, are they still subject to relocation?
 
APA Operator said:
Ok, so except for level 6, all randomly drawn spots are preliminary and could be changed at any time. If there are no names on the bracket and players get moved, how do they know where they are on the bracket?

At some point you have to play matches. Once some level 1 matches have been played and players have advanced to level 2 spots, are they still subject to relocation?
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Let me address the first sentence. The players spot in the bracket could be changed, but really that is only in extreme circumstances. The normal procedure would be to let the player draw again until they draw a spot in the bracket that is available for the Level entry they bought in for. Only towards the last part of the tournament there would be a chance that the players may be moved around, but for the most part the player stays at their original draw spot. The system that I have devised just makes the process a little quicker rather than a player drawing and redrawing until they draw an open spot.

The players will know what spot they draw in the bracket. They will be given a piece of paper so that they will be able to keep track where they are in the bracket and how many times they are in the bracket. The main tournament board may not have any names, but the players who draw for their spot in the bracket will know where they are on that board.

As for the last question, in general they are still subject to relocation. An easier way to look at it might be to look at it as 32 separate qualifiers each with a 32 player bracket. Players will rarely be moved from one of the qualifier brackets to another bracket. As I said earlier, the movement really only gets extreme when the bracket is almost full.

Hope this clears it up a little bit.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
If you have a vote of the players about how the prizes should be distributed I think you will also have a riot. I think you have to make all those decisions before the tournament starts. Players don't like surprises about what may have happened to their money. A lot of the players at your tournament will have been at the Peppermill about a year ago.
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Please read again what I wrote in a previous post.

The priority is to get 1st place money equal to what is advertised. So the priority would be that all available prize money goes towards 1st place until the 1st place prize is reached. Then the available prize money would go towards 2nd place until that is reached, then 3rd and 4th equally after that. The reason for this is that most people are determining how much they would buy in at for a chance at a 1st place prize.

I'll say it again, this format is designed to give the players multiple options with the objective of winning the first prize. The One Pocket first prize is $1600. It really comes down to how much do you risk to possibly win $1600?
There is a very small chance that the first prize money will not get to the full amount. If that is the case, that means that not very many people entered the tournament, therefore there would be a fairly small number of players deciding what to do with the prize fund. If there is no consensus on how the prize fund should be divided up, as tournament director I will simply revert to making the total amount of the prize fund being rewarded to the first place finisher. Simple as that.

Again, just to reinforce what Mr. Griffin had said earlier: Do not confuse us with the fiasco that occured at the Peppermill last year.

This format has nothing to do with any previous tournament and whether or not players were paid.

Players in this tournament format will be paid IMMEDIATELY after their last match is played.
 
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Bank2Win said:
huh? wtf?...am i supposed to understand that?...dumb it down for us idiots...
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It actually seems pretty cut and dry, you either play good or play until you run out of money. Its almost like playing poker I think, you can just keep buying back in.....to a certain extent I guess..:grin:
 
$TAKE HOR$E said:
It actually seems pretty cut and dry, you either play good or play until you run out of money. Its almost like playing poker I think, you can just keep buying back in.....to a certain extent I guess..:grin:
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You are absolutely correct. And the certain extent happens when the bracket is full.

In these first tournaments the highest you will be able to buy in to is the round of 32. In bigger formats, it may be increased to the round of 64 or even the round of 128. And if that happens, you will have to pay more, but you will also have the ability to win MUCH more.
 
Bob Jewett said:
So for this 1024-spot bracket, if it fills up by any combination of entries, the total of entry fees is $5120. You are paying out a total of $3000. This seems like a bad deal compared to most tournaments. Have I read this wrong?
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Any response on this point?
 
what i think is needed is a 1 rack shootout 10 ball, players can buy back in up to 3 or 5 times. This way people can beat top players like at poker and create bigger pots with more entrants.

Can be played as a special event on 1 day of a big event, like the dcc or sbe etc... i'm sure everyone will at least buy in once.
 
FASTEJ said:
Let me address the first sentence. The players spot in the bracket could be changed, but really that is only in extreme circumstances. The normal procedure would be to let the player draw again until they draw a spot in the bracket that is available for the Level entry they bought in for. Only towards the last part of the tournament there would be a chance that the players may be moved around, but for the most part the player stays at their original draw spot. The system that I have devised just makes the process a little quicker rather than a player drawing and redrawing until they draw an open spot.

The players will know what spot they draw in the bracket. They will be given a piece of paper so that they will be able to keep track where they are in the bracket and how many times they are in the bracket. The main tournament board may not have any names, but the players who draw for their spot in the bracket will know where they are on that board.

As for the last question, in general they are still subject to relocation. An easier way to look at it might be to look at it as 32 separate qualifiers each with a 32 player bracket. Players will rarely be moved from one of the qualifier brackets to another bracket. As I said earlier, the movement really only gets extreme when the bracket is almost full.

Hope this clears it up a little bit.
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I think it's fairly clear to me, but I also think a lot of players might be surprised at what may happen. In an earlier post you said someone could pay $160 for 32 different level 1 spots and play 32 games of one pocket against a lot of different people. The truth is, depending on where everyone else buys in, that person could play just 3 games against one player, if they get squished all the way into one level 6 subtree.

I think Bob and I are making the same general suggestion. Tell people as much as you can before they sign up so you limit the surprises. Bob's intention wasn't to associate anyone with the Peppermill incident, he was saying that because some of the players in your event will probably be players who were at the Peppermill there could be a very strong negative reaction to surprises.
 
APA Operator said:
... Bob's intention wasn't to associate anyone with the Peppermill incident, he was saying that because some of the players in your event will probably be players who were at the Peppermill there could be a very strong negative reaction to surprises.
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Exactly. This area and especially those people who like to go to Reno for tournaments have been sensitized to this sort of thing.

But I had a second point. Any response to that?
 
Another thing you have to consider is the time required. Games of one pocket are notoriously variable in length. Darren Appleton got into a match at DCC that took over 5 hours to complete after he was on the hill (race to 3). If you have 1024 1st-level entries, that's something over 1000 games to be played. If you have only 10 tables available that's 100 games per table. At an average of fifteen minutes per match (good luck), that's 25 hours of play on each table, but if you get some slow players it will stretch out.

How many days will the tournament run?
 
Response

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
So for this 1024-spot bracket, if it fills up by any combination of entries, the total of entry fees is $5120. You are paying out a total of $3000. This seems like a bad deal compared to most tournaments. Have I read this wrong?

Sorry for the delay in answering this post. I completely missed it while answering the other posts.

My response is that no you have not read it wrong.
As for the statement that it "seems like a bad deal compared to most tournaments?" In my opinion this statement is just too general a statement, and its all relative. As you already can tell by the format, this tournament is far from being like most tournaments.

I will respond with two of many possible answers as to why this may seem like a bad deal.

1. I could pay out the full amount of entry fees, but I will pay places 512th-1st = $10. Compared to the tournament structure being used, what would you say is more of a bad deal?
My point being is that people play tournaments to try and take a little of their money and make it a larger sum of money. I'm pretty sure most tournament players do not choose whether they will enter a tournament based on the total prize pool as opposed to the possible individual payouts and how much it cost to play in tournament.

2. If anybody feels that this is a bad deal, they simply have the choice of not playing in the tournament.
 
lee brett said:
what i think is needed is a 1 rack shootout 10 ball, players can buy back in up to 3 or 5 times. This way people can beat top players like at poker and create bigger pots with more entrants.

Can be played as a special event on 1 day of a big event, like the dcc or sbe etc... i'm sure everyone will at least buy in once.
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The point about creating a bigger pot with more entrants is exactly one of the main objectives of this tournament format.

As mentioned in a previous post, this format give many options (dynamic entry fee and dynamic bracket) to a player instead of just one option (fixed entry fee and fixed bracket).

I feel that with this format there would be more participation from a larger number of people willing to play in a tournament as opposed to a single elimination or double elimination with a medium to high entry fee.
 
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APA Operator said:
I think it's fairly clear to me, but I also think a lot of players might be surprised at what may happen. In an earlier post you said someone could pay $160 for 32 different level 1 spots and play 32 games of one pocket against a lot of different people. The truth is, depending on where everyone else buys in, that person could play just 3 games against one player, if they get squished all the way into one level 6 subtree.

I think Bob and I are making the same general suggestion. Tell people as much as you can before they sign up so you limit the surprises. Bob's intention wasn't to associate anyone with the Peppermill incident, he was saying that because some of the players in your event will probably be players who were at the Peppermill there could be a very strong negative reaction to surprises.
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Again you are absolutely correct in your first statement. I'll even give you one example of how this happens.

The first person to enter the tournament buy 32 Level 1 spots. They choose not to play anyone for their first match so they draw at random for these spots. By chance this player draws 1 spot from each Level 6 subtree. The next 31 players to enter all buy a Level 6 entry and draw for their spot in the bracket. The first player's entries are all squished into one Level 6 entry.

The chances of this scenario playing out is 0.00000000000000000000000001%. Again as I said before, there are only a minimal amount of extreme circumstances where someone would end up in a bad situation. But hey, that's the luck of the draw.

As for your second statement. Obviously you see how hard it is to explain how every little thing works about this tournament format.

I thank you for your participation and feedback. Telling people as much information as you can in this situation may cause more confusion and harm than good in my opinion. That is why I started this discussion. I will absolutely answer all questions that are asked from me, assuming they are reasonable in my eyes.

Again, thank you for your feedback as I feel the questions you have asked have contributed to the better understanding of this format for others.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Another thing you have to consider is the time required. Games of one pocket are notoriously variable in length. Darren Appleton got into a match at DCC that took over 5 hours to complete after he was on the hill (race to 3). If you have 1024 1st-level entries, that's something over 1000 games to be played. If you have only 10 tables available that's 100 games per table. At an average of fifteen minutes per match (good luck), that's 25 hours of play on each table, but if you get some slow players it will stretch out.

How many days will the tournament run?
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This tournament will run from Feb 12th-19th. It will start as soon as the 9ft tables are ready to go the Sunday night (the day before any of the main USBTC events start). More or less I have access to these tables when they are not being used by CSI to run their mini tournaments and when they are not being used for the World PPA event. I will be there the entire time other than the times stated above to run the tournaments (PAY OR PLAY ONE POCKET AND PAY OR PLAY TEN BALL) and will be available to answer any questions.

This is a very dynamic and exciting tournament format and there is plenty of time to get both of these tournaments finished with a full bracket in each. As I answered to another poster on this topic, there will be a minimal chance that an extreme situation will arise based on the virtually limitless scenarios that can play out with this format.

Thank you for your participation and your feedback.
 
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FASTEJ said:
The chances of this scenario playing out is 0.00000000000000000000000001%. Again as I said before, there are only a minimal amount of extreme circumstances where someone would end up in a bad situation. But hey, that's the luck of the draw.
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I have no problem with that, as long as I am aware beforehand that it could happen so I can make my enter/don't enter decision.

As for your second statement. Obviously you see how hard it is to explain how every little thing works about this tournament format.

I thank you for your participation and feedback. Telling people as much information as you can in this situation may cause more confusion and harm than good in my opinion.
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I think that depends on how you define "harm" and "good". If fewer players enter because they got confused, is that "harm" or "good"? It might harm the $2K that isn't being paid out, but it might be good for players who don't know what they're getting into.

Besides, if there is going to be confusion, better that it happen early rather than late, right?

That is why I started this discussion. I will absolutely answer all questions that are asked from me, assuming they are reasonable in my eyes.

Again, thank you for your feedback as I feel the questions you have asked have contributed to the better understanding of this format for others.
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I apologize if I'm asking too many questions or getting too deep into the details. I'm kind of a bracketology buff and find new or unique formats fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to clarify everything for me.
 
APA Operator said:
I have no problem with that, as long as I am aware beforehand that it could happen so I can make my enter/don't enter decision.



I think that depends on how you define "harm" and "good". If fewer players enter because they got confused, is that "harm" or "good"? It might harm the $2K that isn't being paid out, but it might be good for players who don't know what they're getting into.

Besides, if there is going to be confusion, better that it happen early rather than late, right?



I apologize if I'm asking too many questions or getting too deep into the details. I'm kind of a bracketology buff and find new or unique formats fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to clarify everything for me.
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No need to apologize. I am a bracketology nerd also. I wasnt an English major in college so it is hard for me to explain in words how things like this work. I think that most people that try the format will find that it is actually very easy to understand once they experience it.
 
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