Position of Back Forearm When Addressing The Cue Ball

[kollegedave]

When I first started playing pool (15 years ago or something like that) I remember reading instructional books and seeing videos where new players were consistently taught that when addressing the cue ball just before they shoot, their back forearm should be perpendicular to the floor, and it should form a right angle with their upper arm. However, many of these resources for instruction, while definite in their teaching, were light on reasons WHY the back forearm should be in this "right angle" position before the shot. In considering many pros who are known for their straight and powerful strokes, it seems their back hand is inside their back elbow and not perpendicular, some more than others...



So my questions are simple, if the back arm should form a "right angle" when addressing the cue ball, why?

If some of you perceive advantages to to addressing the cue ball at a point where the elbow is at a position inside of a right angle (as in the photos), what are the advantages of this elbow position?

 

[ShootingArts]

When I first started playing pool (15 years ago or something like that) I remember reading instructional books and seeing videos where new players were consistently taught that when addressing the cue ball just before they shoot, their back forearm should be perpendicular to the floor, and it should form a right angle with their upper arm. However, many of these resources for instruction, while definite in their teaching, were light on reasons WHY the back forearm should be in this "right angle" position before the shot. In considering many pros who are known for their straight and powerful strokes, it seems their back hand is inside their back elbow and not perpendicular, some more than others...



So my questions are simple, if the back arm should form a "right angle" when addressing the cue ball, why?

If some of you perceive advantages to to addressing the cue ball at a point where the elbow is at a position inside of a right angle (as in the photos), what are the advantages of this elbow position?

You have opened an interesting can of worms. The reason for the cue to be at a right angle to the fore arm at cue ball contact is a simple geometrical matter. Without moving your elbow which is generally considered unacceptable practice your wrist is moving closest to inline with your cue when there is that 90 degree relationship. Because both your wrist and grip can change the actual relationship between the fore arm and cue theory and absolute fact do not always match up.

There is another issue however, particularly with the hard tips and stiff shafts in vogue today. If you really pay attention you will find that it doesn't jar your arm as much if your fore arm is in the position you have probably noticed most pro's use. While it isn't always pertinent it seems to me that finesse shots are more easily executed starting with the fore arm near perpendicular and going forward too.

If you watch video and look at illustrations in books old and new you will usually find images and examples of the instructors also hitting the cue ball with this fore arm forward position except when they are carefully illustrating the "perfect" fore arm position.

Years ago I deliberately timed the hit of the cue ball early or late in my swing on certain shots. With a closed bridge it has roughly the same effect as back hand english except it applies to high and low hits.

Hu

 

[Bavafongoul]

Actually That's Incorrect.....

The reason why the right forearm is perpendicular to the ground (90 degrees) is because it represents the neutral position in developing and maintaining a rythimic stroke. The concept is that the shooter's shoulder remains stationary and the forward movement of the arm is the final completion of the pendelum movement completing the stroking of the cue ball.

 

[West Point 1987]

This is a little bit of a controversial topic, I expect some instructors will jump into this...IMHO, there's no absolute requirement to have a perpendicular forearm. I personally like to keep mine perpendicular, as it makes my stroke much more free, fluid and straight--but that's me. There's a natural tendency for a lot of folks (include top players) to inch that hand further forward, as it gets your hand closer to the balance point on the cue and increases your sensitivity to the weight of the cue and hence your light/finesse control is a little better. The further forward you hold the cue, the more likely you'll get elbow drop--which I also don't think is particularly bad, assuming your stroke is still straight when it contacts the cue ball (which is almost always long before an elbow drop will screw up your line). I notice that a lot of the old timers playing straight pool liked to shoot choked up on the cue, and that's with a 57" cue, too. Of course a lot of them used a slip stroke, so that kind of evened it out.

I agree all the instructional material (including the old stuff) always stresses the perpendicular line. I think it's funny so many of the top players hold forward of that point, yet all the doctrinaires jump all over folks telling them it's wrong.

 

[scottjen26]

Agree with the above - 90 degrees is the anatomically best way to hold the cue, especially if you are trying to develop a "perfect" pendulum type stroke. Makes sense for this that you would want the strike point to be at the bottom of the pendulum arc. Just like in golf, where you ideally want your leading arm straight at contact so that the lever is at it's most efficient.

But as you observed, a lot of top pros, even younger ones, don't follow the traditionally taught doctrines to the letter. I think that's because plain and simple, they need to do whatever it takes for them to get the ball in the hole, everytime. As they develop their stroke, certain personalized traits evolve, and if moving their elbow in slightly, or their hand slightly forward, or pumping their stroke, or dropping their elbow ends up happening then that's the way they end up shooting.

I shot with a slightly forward position for years, maybe an inch or two forward of perpendicular, probably sometimes even a bit more. I worked to get much closer to perpendicular, amazing how just that small change feels very weird at first. But I did it for me to delay my natural elbow drop, it was occasionally happening too close to the point of impact which would lead to occasional inconsistencies. Now I have the confidence that any drop that occurs is after impact and I don't have to rely on manual adjustments in my stroke to keep the cue on target.

Scott

 

[lfigueroa]

When I first started playing pool (15 years ago or something like that) I remember reading instructional books and seeing videos where new players were consistently taught that when addressing the cue ball just before they shoot, their back forearm should be perpendicular to the floor, and it should form a right angle with their upper arm. However, many of these resources for instruction, while definite in their teaching, were light on reasons WHY the back forearm should be in this "right angle" position before the shot. In considering many pros who are known for their straight and powerful strokes, it seems their back hand is inside their back elbow and not perpendicular, some more than others...



So my questions are simple, if the back arm should form a "right angle" when addressing the cue ball, why?

If some of you perceive advantages to to addressing the cue ball at a point where the elbow is at a position inside of a right angle (as in the photos), what are the advantages of this elbow position?

Ron Shepard and I used to discuss this quite a bit back on RSB. In a nutshell, Ron would say that the perpendicular forearm is what players should aspire to, being as how it is the geometric ideal and sets you up to strike the cue ball when things are neutral and most level. I believe a player should forget all that and shoot from where it feels best, is most natural, and where you're getting your best results (OB in the hole, CB behaving itself). If that turns out to be perpendicular, great. If not, no biggie. The idea being that there are no style points at pool -- go with what works best.

Lou Figueroa

 

[John Brumback]

Ron Shepard and I used to discuss this quite a bit back on RSB. In a nutshell, Ron would say that the perpendicular forearm is what players should aspire to, being as how it is the geometric ideal and sets you up to strike the cue ball when things are neutral and most level. I believe a player should forget all that and shot from where it feels best, is most natural, and where you're getting your best results (OB in the hole, CB behaving itself). If that turns out to be perpendicular, great. If not, no biggie. The point being that there are no style points at pool -- go with what works best.

Lou Figueroa

Well said,Lou F.Yep there are probably at least a 1000 different strokes and set ups that work good,but you must practice them alot no matter which one you got or use.Does anybody ever watch top players? There aint two that look a like,LOL Never will be untill they start turning out robots.It's funny to me that some of the best players in the world have had the worst looking set ups and strokes.That should tell people something.What it takes is practice.That's most peoples problem,right there.John B.

 

[randyg]

You can learn simple or complex.

Perpendicular makes it simple to repeat a stroke.

Either way, what's good for one............
randyg

 

[ShootingArts]

I love a slip stroke with someone that is good at it

This is a little bit of a controversial topic, I expect some instructors will jump into this...IMHO, there's no absolute requirement to have a perpendicular forearm. I personally like to keep mine perpendicular, as it makes my stroke much more free, fluid and straight--but that's me. There's a natural tendency for a lot of folks (include top players) to inch that hand further forward, as it gets your hand closer to the balance point on the cue and increases your sensitivity to the weight of the cue and hence your light/finesse control is a little better. The further forward you hold the cue, the more likely you'll get elbow drop--which I also don't think is particularly bad, assuming your stroke is still straight when it contacts the cue ball (which is almost always long before an elbow drop will screw up your line). I notice that a lot of the old timers playing straight pool liked to shoot choked up on the cue, and that's with a 57" cue, too. Of course a lot of them used a slip stroke, so that kind of evened it out.

I agree all the instructional material (including the old stuff) always stresses the perpendicular line. I think it's funny so many of the top players hold forward of that point, yet all the doctrinaires jump all over folks telling them it's wrong.

I love watching a slip stroke when someone really knows how to use it. I had some video, now lost, that made it look like slight of hand magic or maybe the man had an extra joint or two in his arm, absolute beauty. I played with developing a small slip stroke a few years back and found it definitely had it's uses. With the fast cloth on tables today we can hit the balls so softly that a slip stroke is probably better than ever. Long straight in shots on a nine footer and banks were falling like rain when I got a local shortstop fooling around with the slip stroke too.

The disadvantage of a slip stroke is obvious, the added complication of releasing and regrasping the cue stick. The advantage is that you can use exactly the same stroke as the practice strokes to hit the cue ball. Forget any changes on the final stroke such as the pause at the rear. You just take one more practice stroke adding a slight slip as you start back and when you come forward the stick is effectively a few inches longer striking the cue ball without any changes to your carefully grooved in path you have been practicing. While you follow through, the hit on the cue ball occurs in the same range as the practice strokes making slight deviations from your path before contacting the cue ball far less likely than when using a stroke without slip.

While the theory of the release and grasp being a horrible complication seems reasonable when we are sitting behind a computer typing on a keyboard in reality when using a slip stroke with a linen wrapped cue a very few ounces difference in grip pressure is all that is needed to slip or not slip. Of course we open another can of worms too. I know Ray Martin posts on here and don't mean to be negatively targeting him but in his excellent 99 shots book you can find an image of him shooting with the rear of his cue elevated three or four inches for no reason at all except that he considered that a level cue. We have carried "level" to an extreme and get the butt as low as we can but a slight angle also vastly aids in a slip stroke working properly.

I don't think everyone should run out and adopt a slip stroke, or a chicken wing, or Bustamonte's wonderful stroke that might not work for anyone else in the world. However I do think we need to think long and hard before we knock what we don't understand. Many of the old school players had multiple strokes in their arsenal and used the one that was best for the particular shot. If I was a youngster putting in 30-40 hours a week or more trying to become a pro I'd give that some thought.

Hu

 

[Slasher]

I like this starting position. Because it puts my arm in a neutral relaxed state and is also a good reference for consistency.