Unsportsmanlike intentional foul just BIH??

J

jad

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I'm posting this for a friend who is looking for comments regarding this play that happened in a local APA tournament this past weekend. I've gone through the APA manual and I can't see any answers there.

Here is the situation:
APA Jack and Jill SL 10 8 ball..two 5's playing a 7 and a 3.

One of the 5's is shooting and is hooked. He chooses to play an intentional foul to tie up his opponents balls.

Here is the issue: He pushes two opponents balls together WITHOUT hitting the cueball first. He just pushes his tip into the six to tie it up against the seven. The opponents protest. The experienced players observing just shake their heads and say they have never seen that before. The ruling from the tournament director is ball in hand.

Question: Is this/should this be just a ball in hand?

So if this is acceptable as an intentional foul, can't it be used to advantage? For example, let's say a team is down to their last ball before the 8 but it's buried. If you don't have to hit the cueball first, just knock the ball into a pocket (without hitting the cueball)..chances are the opposing 7 and 3 cannot run all their balls, then when you get back to the table you are on the 8!

Comments?
 
Ken Shuman was just talking about this during the US Bar Table Championships and feels it should be unsportsmanship and loss of game, and I agree. It's bullshit that anyone would do that.
 
Thinking the way APA sportsmanship rules usually go...it would first be ball in hand, with a warning. Next sportsmanship violation would be loss of game, and then the next, forfeit of match. I would also think that balls would need to be reset to their original position.
 
I hate to hear things like this

jad said:
I'm posting this for a friend who is looking for comments regarding this play that happened in a local APA tournament this past weekend. I've gone through the APA manual and I can't see any answers there.

Here is the situation:
APA Jack and Jill SL 10 8 ball..two 5's playing a 7 and a 3.

One of the 5's is shooting and is hooked. He chooses to play an intentional foul to tie up his opponents balls.

Here is the issue: He pushes two opponents balls together WITHOUT hitting the cueball first. He just pushes his tip into the six to tie it up against the seven. The opponents protest. The experienced players observing just shake their heads and say they have never seen that before. The ruling from the tournament director is ball in hand.

Question: Is this/should this be just a ball in hand?

So if this is acceptable as an intentional foul, can't it be used to advantage? For example, let's say a team is down to their last ball before the 8 but it's buried. If you don't have to hit the cueball first, just knock the ball into a pocket (without hitting the cueball)..chances are the opposing 7 and 3 cannot run all their balls, then when you get back to the table you are on the 8!

Comments?
Click to expand...

I think it should have been unsportsmanlike.

I don't know what the rule is for unsportsmanlike.
Maybe as simple as returning the ball to the right place.
Maybe just a ball in hand.
But my opinion is it should be loss of game at the least.

Just my opinion don't shoot me.
 
according to what I know about the rules....the balls would get replaced to the spot closest to where they originally were before being hit. I'm not sure why they called it ball in hand because according to the APA it is only a foul when the cue ball is struck. Either by a cue or another object. Unless of course one of the balls struck the cue ball. Either way it was bad form.
 
Nits

jad said:
I'm posting this for a friend who is looking for comments regarding this play that happened in a local APA tournament this past weekend. I've gone through the APA manual and I can't see any answers there.

Here is the situation:
APA Jack and Jill SL 10 8 ball..two 5's playing a 7 and a 3.

One of the 5's is shooting and is hooked. He chooses to play an intentional foul to tie up his opponents balls.

Here is the issue: He pushes two opponents balls together WITHOUT hitting the cueball first. He just pushes his tip into the six to tie it up against the seven. The opponents protest. The experienced players observing just shake their heads and say they have never seen that before. The ruling from the tournament director is ball in hand.

Question: Is this/should this be just a ball in hand?

So if this is acceptable as an intentional foul, can't it be used to advantage? For example, let's say a team is down to their last ball before the 8 but it's buried. If you don't have to hit the cueball first, just knock the ball into a pocket (without hitting the cueball)..chances are the opposing 7 and 3 cannot run all their balls, then when you get back to the table you are on the 8!

Comments?
Click to expand...

This is why rulebooks are constantly being revised. Idiots. Where do you draw the line. I take all your balls and tie them all up, or knock some of mine in the hole. Along these same lines is purposefully shooting your opponents balls. Done all the time and should be loss of game. I don't care what the rule book says, it's wrong. Un American. Chicken poop.
 
If you move balls with your cue, they are supposed to be put in the spots they were in before they were moved, so they would have to be put back anyway.

Not sure on the unsportsmanlike part of it, even though it is a big DB move but it should be at least ball in hand.
 
One time in a league game years ago I accidentally moved about 5 balls with my cue. My cue got caught on the ledge of the bar when I was shooting causing my stroke to go completely awry. So much so that I never even contacted the cue ball.

The opposing team captain tried to claim forfeit, but after a discussion it was agreed that it was just a mistake and that ball in hand would be awarded with the balls staying where they laid (it was too difficult to remember where they were beforehand). I think I lost that game. :(
 
The incoming player has the option to return the balls to their original positions or leave the tables as is. He also gets ball in hand and the opponent gets a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
jad said:
I'm posting this for a friend who is looking for comments regarding this play that happened in a local APA tournament this past weekend. I've gone through the APA manual and I can't see any answers there.

Here is the situation:
APA Jack and Jill SL 10 8 ball..two 5's playing a 7 and a 3.

One of the 5's is shooting and is hooked. He chooses to play an intentional foul to tie up his opponents balls.

Here is the issue: He pushes two opponents balls together WITHOUT hitting the cueball first. He just pushes his tip into the six to tie it up against the seven. The opponents protest. The experienced players observing just shake their heads and say they have never seen that before. The ruling from the tournament director is ball in hand.

Question: Is this/should this be just a ball in hand?

So if this is acceptable as an intentional foul, can't it be used to advantage? For example, let's say a team is down to their last ball before the 8 but it's buried. If you don't have to hit the cueball first, just knock the ball into a pocket (without hitting the cueball)..chances are the opposing 7 and 3 cannot run all their balls, then when you get back to the table you are on the 8!

Comments?
Click to expand...

Although unsportsmanlike conduct is a good question here; absent of that, the balls should be replaced back to their original position and the shooter make a "legal" shot.
 
leehayes said:
according to what I know about the rules....the balls would get replaced to the spot closest to where they originally were before being hit. I'm not sure why they called it ball in hand because according to the APA it is only a foul when the cue ball is struck. Either by a cue or another object. Unless of course one of the balls struck the cue ball. Either way it was bad form.
Click to expand...

Yep, this is the answer for APA, I believe. I still agree with most of the other responses regarding unsportsmanlike conduct and loss of game but I don't believe that would be the ruling in APA.
 
loss of game?

I think it is not considered a foul unless you strike the cue ball first, though I have no doubt there are APA/BCA rules that are in conflict but are seldom envoked. Therefore, the balls moved, intentionally or not should be replaced to their origonal position.

I had an opponent who was shooting over my ball and actually graze my ball with the cue tip prioir to striking the cue ball and it was not a foul under APA rules.

By this logic, striking your opponents ball first is not a foul and can't qualify as an "Intentional foul"...Therefore....no loss of game. Just put the balls back where they were but do so at the discretion of the person injured by this unusual approach....not the person who struck the wrong ball.

While this is my take on the situation, I'm sure there is some rule that would make it easy to argue a less logical but more punitive outcome despite the fact it conflicts with other rules. It is often a very fine line of subjectivity between choosing what appears to be a logical approach to victory and then labeling it unsportsmanlike if you don't like the results. Unsportsmanlike is more often a state-of-mind and intent. I'm not sure that was the case here.

I suppose, if the there are rules in conflict, you would have to rely on a ref. to decide which rules carry more weight in the interpretation or hope that he/she stumbles upon the rule that favors your perspective more so than your opponents perspective.
 
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leehayes said:
according to what I know about the rules....the balls would get replaced to the spot closest to where they originally were before being hit. I'm not sure why they called it ball in hand because according to the APA it is only a foul when the cue ball is struck. Either by a cue or another object. Unless of course one of the balls struck the cue ball. Either way it was bad form.
Click to expand...

You go it.
 
sportmanship foul

SpotMonster22 said:
Thinking the way APA sportsmanship rules usually go...it would first be ball in hand, with a warning. Next sportsmanship violation would be loss of game, and then the next, forfeit of match. I would also think that balls would need to be reset to their original position.
Click to expand...

I don't know what the current rules are as I have not played in many years. I am not specifically referring to the APA but as I remember of the leagues and tourneys I played in such a foul was (1) at the discretion of the ref or director as to foul ball in hand in which case the opponent had the choice of leaving the balls in place or returning them to their original position. or (2) loss of game or (3) loss of match or (4) ejection from the feild of play.

Such deliberate unspotsmanship conduct should not be tolerated at all. Left to my discretion I would impose # 3 for 1st offense. # 4 for any further offense as a matter of record in any future matches and disqualification in any future events period. :nono:
 
I have never played APA but in VNEA it is a foul for several reasons, but the one that is a matter of the subject at hand states...that if ANY balls are accidently touched by hand, cue, bridge and cause the placement of balls on the table or result of any shot to be disrupted it is a foul, this also includes if the ball that was accidently touched crosses the path of the cueball either before or after it crosses that point, it is a foul even if it does not touch another ball. Therefor in this situation since he touched one ball with his cue and it caused another ball to change its original postion as a result of his "shot" it would be ball in hand. If you accidently touched just one ball with your hand, cue, bridge and it does not cross the path of the cueball, and does not interfere with any other balls on the table, then it is the opposing players choice to either leave the balls as they lay, or put that ball back to its original position.
 
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