EYE DOMINANCE AND HEAD POSiTION

[FranCrimi]

Fran.....that is a really really good question. After I read it I had to move to the table for some testing to better answer your question.

Here we go. Standing behind the QB, my right eye has told my chin where it needs to be so that I can get into my stance, to be in line with the shot. When I bend over to shoot the ball and close my right eye it looks like the shot is straight in. When I close my left eye it looks like the CB will miss the OB to the left.

I'll tell ya, perception is tricky. Maybe what you think you are seeing is not real (accurate). But I have learned to accept the way I see things. (spots)

At least I know about my eyes and the tricks they can play. 13 years ago I couldnt figure out what the heck was going on, drove me nuts.

My cue is between the bidge of my nose and my right tear duct. My vision is centered.

John

John, thanks for taking the time to figure it out and explain it. So it sounds to me like for all the years your eyes were fighting each other, your cue placement probably varied.

But then when Harry told you about the dominant eye thing, it really wasn't a complete explanation about lining up to the shot. So, you placed your cue under your dominant eye, but it wasn't properly lined up with the shot, so it seems your cue may have been a little off line. I suspect that you had trained your left eye to see the shot back when your eyes were fighting with each other so there was still an eye conflict going on.

Now, you have found a place that allows your dominant eye to catch the line of the shot (because the dominant eye will always grab the information before the recessive eye) and still accommodate your recessive eye, which you trained over the years without realizing it.

That's my uneducated guess. Sounds to me like you've got it just right now in slightly favoring the dominant eye side.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but how does Allison manage to shoot so well with the cue actually touching her chin? Is she just one person who doesn't have a dom-eye, or has she just learned to see that reality with the cue centered between both eyes?

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on this topic. Everyone is going to have one spot where they see the actual line most accurately, and it may or may not be under one eye or the other. Earl seems to actually have both eyes on one side of the cue some times.

I don't believe that dom-eye doesn't matter, as it plays an important part in how we all see that line. I do believe it's different for everyone.

Steve

Steve, I believe that if we allow a person to place their cue under their recessive eye when they have tested for a strongly dominant eye simply because they think they see the shot better that way, we will be doing them a disservice. Before I would allow something like that, I would test and retest and test again. As I have written many times here, there are degrees of eye dominance and those degrees have an effect on how close to the center the player can place their cue.

The road to improvement has many aha moments, and just because someone thinks they may be seeing something well, it doesn't mean that it's true for the long run. I will never take a back seat with a student of mine and just say, 'whatever works for you' --- not until statistics tell me otherwise.

 

[stumpie71]

This is a very interesting subject. I haven't worked with Geno but plan on it in the near future. However I have been dealing with something similar. I am left eye dominant and play left handed. My vision is excellent. To make a long story short I use to have a hybrid snooker style stance and changed it to a more classical stance. In doing so I noticed I was having problems with my shots. After much trial and error I was able to figure out the problem and it was my visual perception of the shot.

My sight line is slightly under my right eye with my head straight. I used various methods to determine this including placing 5 doughnuts on my table in a straight line, string lines and even a couple of lasers (don't ask). It is amazing though how the slightest movements in our body can change our visual perception.

Hopefully people and instructors will keep the info coming because every little bit helps.

 

[One Pocket John]

This is a very interesting subject. I haven't worked with Geno but plan on it in the near future. However I have been dealing with something similar. I am left eye dominant and play left handed. My vision is excellent. To make a long story short I use to have a hybrid snooker style stance and changed it to a more classical stance. In doing so I noticed I was having problems with my shots. After much trial and error I was able to figure out the problem and it was my visual perception of the shot.

My sight line is slightly under my right eye with my head straight. I used various methods to determine this including placing 5 doughnuts on my table in a straight line, string lines and even a couple of lasers (don't ask). It is amazing though how the slightest movements in our body can change our visual perception.

Hopefully people and instructors will keep the info coming because every little bit helps.

This is what I do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk

And I keep my vision centered.

Keeping the chin in line with the shot line and my vision centered led me to more of a snooker stance somewhere between 45deg and 60deg. Its very comfortable. I had to get use to twisting the upper part of my body (shoulders) to get in a shooting position.

John

 

[genomachino]

Thanks for sharing your wisdom...........

I agree with you Geno, especially the part about the degree of dominance. Players with a severely dominant eye will position the cue squarely under that eye. In extreme cases of eye dominance, like Earl, for example, there will be a tendency for drifting the cue to the outside edge of the eye.

There are posters here who feel that eye dominance does not matter and that the player should place the cue wherever they see reality. I would like to suggest to them that they start taking statistics on how many of those cases the player sees reality with the cue under their dominant eye.

I do have a concern for players who are not guided to place their cues under their dominant eye. I could probably make some shots with my cue poorly placed under my chin. But when it comes down to actual long-term playing it might be a different story. As an instructor, I will always take the players dominant eye into consideration when it comes to cue placement.

I have been keeping track of my students over the last 20 years and where they place their cues. I have found that the only time they needed to place their cue under their recessive eye was when there was a specific eye pathology. One student was missing an eye. Another had a severe condition in his dominant eye and was nearly legally blind in that eye.

Players who don't have severely dominant eyes are able to place the cue closer to the center point between both eyes.

Hi there Fran,

Thanks for your insight here. It would be fun to show you "The rest of the Story". Your almost there.

Give me a call sometime. It would be fun to share something with you that you can teach and pass on.

Thanks geno......

 

[genomachino]

I almost worked with Allison...........

Fran. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but how does Allison manage to shoot so well with the cue actually touching her chin? Is she just one person who doesn't have a dom-eye, or has she just learned to see that reality with the cue centered between both eyes?

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on this topic. Everyone is going to have one spot where they see the actual line most accurately, and it may or may not be under one eye or the other. Earl seems to actually have both eyes on one side of the cue some times.

I don't believe that dom-eye doesn't matter, as it plays an important part in how we all see that line. I do believe it's different for everyone.

Steve

Hi there Steve,

When i was at the Olympia last year Allison asked me if I'd show her what Perfect Aim is. She is very much a student of the game.

I did look at her stance and eye placement and she is definitely dominant in one eye or the other. I can't remember for sure which one, but it is difficult to tell with some players because it is hard to see what they are seeing with their eyes.

Some players have the cue way outside of what appears to be their line of sight.

Unfortuanately I was giving free lessons on the table upstairs and she was downstairs shooting with all the guys putting on a show. Dean (Dr pool) brought her into Oconomowoc.

It got late and she had to catch her plane. there was no time to share. It would have been fun to work with such an Icon. She's such a nice person too.

I'm sure she's figured out alot about it since then.

I think she is right eye dominant.

But the dominant eye is everything. It dictates where your eyes are all the time.It tells where your stance should be. And where your stroke should be. The problem is on some types of shots, especially when you are cutting the way of your non dominant eye, the non dominant eye tries to work as the dominant eye forcing the look to not be right but appear right.

Bottom line is anyone that understands this can peak their aim to their real potential. Without knowing how this all works it's like pointing a gun without using the sight because that is exactly what you are doing. the natural sight is not in the correct position.

This is the main reason most players have trouble cutting balls more one way than the other. They are having trouble keeping the dominant eye in the dominant position.

I've been preaching this for 3 years now and the message is still the same. It's just the way it is.

 

[FranCrimi]

Hi there Fran,

Thanks for your insight here. It would be fun to show you "The rest of the Story". Your almost there.

Give me a call sometime. It would be fun to share something with you that you can teach and pass on.

Thanks geno......

Hi Geno,

I absolutely will call you. I love learning new things.

 

[The Renfro]

The missing piece is something called parallax... It is the ability of the eyes to work together by either turning in. ie crossing.. or in some instances the internal muscles contract in a way to create parallax.... One of the main issues in this is that if the eyes are internally focusing to mimic the effects of their turning in at some point the hardening of the lenses from age and lifestyle will suddenly make it impossible for this to happen....

When the eyes are young and healthy we stick the cue under our chin or wherever and have at it... The eyes take care of themselves.. We may get crossed up on left or right cuts every once in awhile but all in all we just don't have to think about it....

Watching Morra up close I have a very high confidence that he suffers convergence deficiency and his eye will only turn in slightly if at all...
This would explain his being a one eyed wonder so to speak... The brain is a pretty complex thing... It does selective omission in vision... You show it 2 different images from 2 eyes and it will selectively omit the image that isn't the proper one unless they are both too close to make a decision.. By John being as far under his left eye as he is there is no way the brain is utilizing his right eye except peripherally for depth perception....


My eyes will not turn in at all. And at around 39 the lenses had hardened to the point that internal foci could no longer create parallax..... What I figured out thanks to Geno is that I can use either eye as dominant BUT I have to make the one I choose extremely dominant... I am way out side the tear duct... I have to get to a point where the image from the non aiming eyes isn't even close to seeing the target line... As long as i do this my brain disregards the image from that eye and I don't get the old double cross....

I had been struggling with this for awhile and in one respect for years... When a tough shot came up I would methodically place the cue under my chin and aim with all my might only to watch shot after shot miss the pocket after I had hit exactly where I aimed.... In hindsight I did hit it perfect looking thru the faulty visual setup that had picked where it thought the aim point existed in space.......

Never dismiss dominance... Never assume that everyone sees the way you do...

Think about this... When you look out the window at lets say a tree... I bet you see it in all of it's glory in distinct and vivid 3d... you can tell how some branches are close and some are far away... You can tell the depth of the shade it provides..... I don't see any of that... I see more or less a photograph... The eye doctor put some lenses in my sunglasses for me a few years ago and to my astonishment I finally saw what a tree was supposed to look like... Tried the lenses for pool but the glasses aspect and frames got in the way of the 3d benefit as far as I was concerned....

If you aren't having to worry about dominance yet be thankful.. And I truly hope things stay that way.... But just think... One more night in a smoky pool room or one more birthday may be the turning point where the lenses in your eyes may no longer be as supple as one of those strippers on Helfert's Pinoy adventures.........

 

[RWOJO]

Head position

I just got done with a lesson Sunday night with a new student. He shoots decent but wants improvement.

I had him shooting long straight in shots and he was consistantly hitting slightly to his right. I tried head position and dominant eye (left handed and left eye dominant). He already shoots with his cue slightly favoring to the left eye.

I tried completely under left eye...
I tried directly under chin...
I tried slightly to right eye...
I tried directly under right eye...

None of the above mattered, he was still missing by a little bit every time even though he was stroking straight.

I had almost forgot the next part of head position - Height. He has always played with his chin practically touching the cue. I had him raise his head 5 - 6 inches above the cue and BINGO. He was shooting dead center everytime.

So remember when working on dominant eye dont forget the height of the head too. Experiment with combinations and see what works best for you to shoot as straight as possible.

 

[ronscuba]

.....

I had almost forgot the next part of head position - Height. He has always played with his chin practically touching the cue. I had him raise his head 5 - 6 inches above the cue and BINGO. He was shooting dead center everytime.

So remember when working on dominant eye dont forget the height of the head too. Experiment with combinations and see what works best for you to shoot as straight as possible.

Head height position definitely affects me.

I think it has to do with my eyes being square when standing taller vs. slightly angled when my chin is on the cue. I am right handed.

With my chin on the cue, I can't position my eyes square without painfully twisting my neck. My left eye is slightly closer to the cue ball than my right eye and the cue looks straight if it is placed in between my chin/nose and right eye.

When standing a little taller, my eyes are square, equal distance to the cue ball and the cue looks straight if it's directly under my nose chin.

This might not be true for everyone, but at least for me, head height matters because it affects whether or not I can position my eyes square and equal distance to the cue ball. I am at the point I don't really think about it. I just position the cue so it looks straight. The position changes depending on how tall my stance is.

 

[The Renfro]

Head height increases distance... for a certain shot having him raise up would have oriented the eyes to where the parallax was allowing both eyes to see the same contact point.... Keep working with him.... the height change was a bandaid and won't be the answer on shorter or longer shots consistently.....

 

[nevermiss]

I have taken some lessons and analyzed sighting on my own, and from this I have made some observations about my own game that might help you. Set up a fairly easy cut shot and fall on your cue with your eyes in different spots above the cue. Do this several times each for different positions, and find the position that gives you the clearest image of the edges of the object ball.

My experience, and the experience of the guy who taught me, is that sighting out of your dominant eye (if you have one) is the way to go. I sight out of my right eye and not only does it give me the clearest image of the ball, it also allows me to stay more focused on my target through the shot.

It is also worth mentioning that I have found it extremely important to make sure that my eyes are level (i.e. in a straight line that is parallel to the floor). This is really easy to lose sight of when you are shooting over a ball or jacking up to shoot down on the cue ball.

I hope that you find some value here.

 

[RWOJO]

Head height increases distance... for a certain shot having him raise up would have oriented the eyes to where the parallax was allowing both eyes to see the same contact point.... Keep working with him.... the height change was a bandaid and won't be the answer on shorter or longer shots consistently.....

The guy I'm talking about is an APA Skill Level 5 who is really striving to get better. The head height seems to be more of a fix than a bandaid because he is shooting far better than normal. He recently had his first break and run in league. He has won almost all his matches since the 'fix'. He his making it far deeper in the local tournaments consistently.

I'm still working with him on other area's of weakness but he is consistantly shooting very straight with this new head position. He already had solid fundamentals, but this change was the biggest effect on his game to date.

 

[measureman]

I have not read this whole thread.I am right handed and left Eye dominate and if you look to your left at my picture this is my stance.

 

[measureman]

Here is a better picture. Been playing like this for over 50 years.

 

[Ratta]

Well,

there are several/many aspects of Head Position and how to place the head, so YOU can see *this straight (shooting) line* to align correctly for it.

The are so many explanations on this theme- and i for myself am a bit careful about it-because it can be extremly simple-and in very few cases really difficult.

the way for example Steve Davis explains to find the proper alignment including *seeing* the straight line to place your vision-center correctly is great. (the book with the line, placed on the table). Old but GREAT!

What CJ Wiley poste a few ago is in my opinion one of the greatest statements ever put in words-it s just great.
"Someone ask me "why can I play like a pro for a few hours, then have mental lapses and start making mistakes?" My answer surprised him...I said "the problem is all in your perception of the cue ball, because it's always changing....we can make the cue ball look smaller by standing further away, or make it look larger by standing closer... we want to be the same distance to give us the "illusion" that the distance is the same...once we have established our distance now we are able to do something that is REALLY IMPORTANT.....we can see the distance relationship between the cue ball and the object ball, and the lower our eyes, the closer the two balls will appear...the higher our eyes the farther the object ball will appear.....the key is to find the distance relationship YOU PREFER and try to make EVERY shot fit this perception.....so, as a rule the closer the cue ball is to the object ball the higher you stand...as the distance increases you're eyes should lower to create the same visual "illusion". And creating this illusion consciously makes all the shots appear to be the same....this leads to uncanny consistency ;-)"

there are furhtermore more easy ways to find your vision center. From my expirience many ppl have absolutley no problem with aligning or seeing -or even not finding their vision-center. The much greater amount have just poor mechanics and are not able to execute how they would like to execute.

lg
Ingo