Dr. Pool - Meskwaki Casino tournament bad review

Dr. Pool

Suprnva & Richardson,

I have never been to one of those events so I cannot speak from personal experience.

I will (for my own satisfaction) chat with Dean and see what he has to say.

I know he has a HC system but I have no idea what it is based on.

I appreciate your passion and let me do a little digging - not that I can make any difference on the topic.

Mark Griffin
 
Suprnva & Richardson,

I have never been to one of those events so I cannot speak from personal experience.

I will (for my own satisfaction) chat with Dean and see what he has to say.

I know he has a HC system but I have no idea what it is based on.

I appreciate your passion and let me do a little digging - not that I can make any difference on the topic.

Mark Griffin

I think if anyone can make a difference, it would be you.
 
Actually, most handicap systems have a slight to moderate bias in favor of those with the stronger handicap.

I understand your sentiment. It does create a bit of conflict. Ranking systems are difficult to construct and implement, and even with adequate data (which is rare) there always exists some element that will be unhappy with the result. Again, we can look at the history of college football as a guide. :)

On the other hand, pool is not alone in this regard. Most recreational sports leagues do away with a handicap system in favor of a tiered skill structure. The desired result is still the same -- to create balanced competition. One of the issues, however, is that it takes a certain number of entries to make such a structure work, whereas a handicap system can create a larger field by attempting to balance everyone against everyone rather than placing members in small, presumed equivalent, subsets. Even then, there is usually some debate as to the perceived ranking.

The other problem with pure open formats is that the number of entries becomes exclusive to only those that feel they have a chance to win. Most people do not like to compete if they do not feel they have a chance at being victorious. Therefore, open events, particularly on a small scale, have a reasonable probability of never getting off the ground due to potential low entries.

In a basketball game, I only need to win 1 out of 4 quarters to win the game. Baseballl, 1 of 9 innings to win the game. Auto racing, one of potentially hundreds of laps and win the race. 9 ball can be won by pocketing 1 out of the 9 balls. Some variant rules of 8 ball can have a winner declared without ever pocketing a ball!

It is all about how one defines the system. Some systems are based on an aggregate. Some only count the accumulation of these subsystems and disregard the aggregate entirely. What is fair often tends to be defined as such by tradition.
WOW. I have never quoted a whole post but yours is so succinct and to the point that it deserves to be seen again.
 
Mark,

I respect you and your opinions very much. I think you do more for pool than anyone else in this day and age. However, unless you are actually here in Wisconsin and see how Dean's tournaments have effected everything, I don't think you can form a valid opinion. Yes, lots of people love his tournaments. But that is because, as stated by the original poster, you don't have to win a single game to win a match. How is that good for pool?

Also, say Dean is running a tournament at a casino and the same weekend there is a tournament going on at a pool hall. Let's say some people, we'll go with a lower number like 20, decide to go to the casino tournament that would have normally gone to the tournament at the pool hall. How does that help pool? Wouldn't having more people at a pool hall support pool more than having them go to a casino?

His ratings have totally destroyed things here. Nobody wants to play tournaments unless they are handicapped. There is no reason for people to want to get better because they can just go to Dean's tournaments and keep a super low ranking and win all the time. But the players that have put in their time and effort and have gotten better have no chance. How is that good for pool?

And this is something I would really like your opinion on. As I stated in my previous post, Dean tried to rate someone higher than they are just because they beat him in one match in a tournament and because he thought they stroked the ball too good. Is that how players should be ranked? Is that fair in any way? If that is, maybe there should be a table setup at the entrance to the tournament area at the Riviera and everyone that is going to play should just hit a draw shot and Dean can place them in whatever tournament he feels because essentially that's what he tried to do in this case.

We could go back and forth about this all day and night. I'm just giving my opinions based on seeing the state of pool in Wisconsin first hand and hearing from many, many other people that feel the way I do.

-Patrick

Patrick,

I think the useless and tirrrrred, tired banter on WPPS is blinding your judgement on handicapped events. The bulk of your lower-level players aren't going to show up to a non-handicapped event.... it's plain and simple... they're donating if they do; so why would they? The argument that they don't want to get better because is weak. There are better times for a low-ranked player to improve than during the two matches they're going to get in a tournament they have no chance in. I'm not saying they're a waste of time, because I personally donate all the time. Not because I think I can win, but because I love the game and love the competition, and I truly believe it makes a better player out of me. But like I said, the majority of low-ranked players aren't going to do that.

People like the DR Pool events because they're well-run, and they're a good time; not because they don't have to win a game to win a match. If you look at peoples' handicaps, sure, statistically they can win a match without winning a game. I will guarantee you that happens a lot less than you think.

Handicapped events are keeping the numbers big. Do you think the Varsity Club would have had 118 people at their latest event if it wasn't handicapped? You'd be out of your mind if you think so. Look at the top 12 finishers from that event... Beyer was recently moved down to AA, and for some reason Volkman is rated as a AA on my sheet I took home from the Calcutta. Why was that, by the way? 14 out of the 24 who cashed were Masters, and five out of the 24 were top-end AA players. Do you think handicapping that event hurt its turnout and outcome?

Dean's event dates are posted long before they happen. If rooms feel that 20 people, on the low end, are attending DR Pool events instead of theirs, they should schedule accordingly. The Keshena DR Pool event is the same weekend every year and is always a huge tour stop... if Jeremy wants to run an event on the same weekend, that's his prerogative. What about the A/B tournament that just popped up on the 17th? Same day as Janet's Pool Tour closed event.

Mark is absolutely right: a lot of the work done behind the scenes of pool players is thankless. Dean does a LOT for pool, especially in Wisconsin. It's sad to hear that people think he single-handedly ruined pool for Wisconsin because that is complete and utter blasphemy. Show me another state that puts up numbers remotely close to what Wisconsin does at their state tournaments. You might have a couple. Then, tell me how the state of pool is in Wisconsin.
 
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I like what Dr Pool is doing for pool............

This is without a doubt the worst tournament I've ever played in. Its also the first time I've ever seen multiple people just quit the tournament because they were frustrated and didn't want to deal with it anymore, one player was even in the winners bracket.

They don't use a computer system for handicapping, it's whatever they *think* you should be. If you shoot a good match they move you up. If you get ran over you stay the same.

To explain their *system* you get 10 points per ball and 45 for the 8 ball. So if you win its 115 points. Seems good in theory, but you could actually lose to someone who NEVER wins a game against you. :/ Lowest handicap i saw was 420, highest was 970. I saw multiple 600-700 rated people breaking and running out.

If you're a masters player and admit it they make you so high you have no shot to win the tournament. Because as they said, "There are more lower level players here losing money to the casino, we want them to continue to come and play"

Oh yeah, the tournament director was drunk. That is always helpful.

Anyhow, just a review I thought I'd share. Maybe inform someone in case they don't want to make the same mistake i did trying to be honest. I told them i was a low level masters player(true) they made me a 870. I lost to a 440(who never beats anyone, their words) and a 630 who had three table runs against me. :(

PS: if you play masters level pool, go there, tell them you're a B player and get a 550 rating and win the tournament. That's what about 6 of the top 16 did.

Back in 2009 Dean let me play in the tournaments he was having so I played with my son. I went there with my son knowing that our chances of winning were pretty slim but it was just really cool to spend the weekend with my son.

We won a bunch of matches, in fact one of the teams that we beat came up and told Dean that we just smoked them. They didn't tell him that they couldn't make 2 balls in a row. Too much beer I think.

Dean raised our average up after that and it was OK.

Point is nobody is going there with a lock on these tournys. Anybody can win almost. And at a certain point he filters out all the killer, master players and that's OK. He needs to fill up the casinos.

I don't think anyone knows how many players Dean gets playing that would otherwise never go to a pool tourny. This is great for pool.

I've seen him at the State tourny in Wis. and he does one hell of a job. We need about 10 Deans in wisconsin and we would have one rockin pool state.

I've been around the country and have seen some pretty depleted pool areas. Pool in Wisconsin and Minnesota is actually pretty good and it's people like Dr pool (Dean) that are making the difference. The guy in Minnesota is John Stitch. He's doing one great job over there.

I just hope this post doesn't keep any players from just going there and having some fun and some great pool memories. I know I cherish every single one that I've been to including these Dr pool events.

I encourage everyone to come see what great events these are.

If your going there to win first place it's going to be pretty rough for anyone. But if you just want to have a great time with a whole bunch of the nicest pool players in the world you need to check out the next one that's in your area or close.

Good Luck everyone and Thanks Dean for all you've done and doing for pool.

Your buddy Geno...........
 
Patrick,

I think the useless and tirrrrred, tired banter on WPPS is blinding your judgement on handicapped events. The bulk of your lower-level players aren't going to show up to a non-handicapped event.... it's plain and simple... they're donating if they do; so why would they? The argument that they don't want to get better because is weak. There are better times for a low-ranked player to improve than during the two matches they're going to get in a tournament they have no chance in. I'm not saying they're a waste of time, because I personally donate all the time. Not because I think I can win, but because I love the game and love the competition, and I truly believe it makes a better player out of me. But like I said, the majority of low-ranked players aren't going to do that.

People like the DR Pool events because they're well-run, and they're a good time; not because they don't have to win a game to win a match. If you look at peoples' handicaps, sure, statistically they can win a match without winning a game. I will guarantee you that happens a lot less than you think.

Handicapped events are keeping the numbers big. Do you think the Varsity Club would have had 118 people at their latest event if it wasn't handicapped? You'd be out of your mind if you think so. Look at the top 12 finishers from that event... Beyer was recently moved down to AA, and for some reason Volkman is rated as a AA on my sheet I took home from the Calcutta. Why was that, by the way? 14 out of the 24 who cashed were Masters, and five out of the 24 were top-end AA players. Do you think handicapping that event hurt its turnout and outcome?

Dean's event dates are posted long before they happen. If rooms feel that 20 people, on the low end, are attending DR Pool events instead of theirs, they should schedule accordingly. The Keshena DR Pool event is the same weekend every year and is always a huge tour stop... if Jeremy wants to run an event on the same weekend, that's his prerogative. What about the A/B tournament that just popped up on the 17th? Same day as Janet's Pool Tour closed event.

Mark is absolutely right: a lot of the work done behind the scenes of pool players is thankless. Dean does a LOT for pool, especially in Wisconsin. It's sad to hear that people think he single-handedly ruined pool for Wisconsin because that is complete and utter blasphemy. Show me another state that puts up numbers remotely close to what Wisconsin does at their state tournaments. You might have a couple. Then, tell me how the state of pool is in Wisconsin.

Jeff,

The stuff from the WPPS page has nothing to do with my opinions. And I have nothing against handicap tournaments, I just have a problem against the way Dean does it. I have a problem with the fact that I have heard people say that they would rather go to Deans tournament because they can play bad and still win instead of going to a tournament where they have to play good. Seriously, why the hell should someone be able to play bad and win? Does the worst football or baseball team with championships? No! So why should that be ok in pool? It's just asinine to think that is at all ok.

Oh, as for the reason Volkman was listed as a AA on the sheet, it was a mistake. It didn't get noticed until he was about to go on the block in the calcutta so it was too late to change the sheets. He was announced as and played as a master like he was supposed to though so it really doesn't make much difference.

-Patrick
 
It sounds like that Dr. Pool caters to the medium and lower end players. Much like the APA which is somewhat biased against the stronger players i.e. 23 point limit, rules, etc. It's a business and his model must be somewhat successful as he holds many events. I understand where the better players are coming from as I'm not a big fan of handicapped events due to the nature of inaccurate ratings.

I just look at the tournament, format, rules, payouts, odds on the money, experience factor, fun factor, etc. to make a decision if I'm going to play. I've played in some stinkers in the past and will probably not play in those events in the future. But, other players may have enjoyed that particular event. It's simply business of supply and demand. Apparently, his tournaments still has some demand.

As far as the concept that handicapped tournaments promote stagnation in ones game, I think there is some validation to that theory. I know personally of several players that don't want to improve because their "handicap" might go up and they can't play on the same team as their friends or won't be as effective as a higher handicap. That's ok too, because when they do play in an open event I'll have even a better chance to win :grin:
 
And at a certain point he filters out all the killer, master players and that's OK. He needs to fill up the casinos.

Sadly this is what i got from your post.

Here, I don't personally see a problem with having a B/C tournament. Just tell the A/Masters players that they won't be allowed to win. I don't have a problem not winning, but i don't like being heisted out of my money. So either way he's alienating someone, but i guess there are more low level players around in every state.

I've been to a couple John Stitch events, they were a couple of the best tournaments I've ever played in. One you were at Gene, at Canterbury Park.
 
(snip)
PS: if you play masters level pool, go there, tell them you're a B player and get a 550 rating and win the tournament. That's what about 6 of the top 16 did.

I'm not a master player, but my initial "handicap" number (570) was chosen without any input from me. I ended up as a 620 before I was finally out.

Your personal playing level is the exact worse level to be for a format like this one. That's by design, for sure.

The other problem for you better guys is the quarters eat you alive, having to win so many games each match.

I did it for practice for state, but I'd do it again, I think. The $25 card credit netted me $45 bucks from a slot. :thumbup: That helped pay for gas and food.


Jeff Livingston
 
Your personal playing level is the exact worse level to be for a format like this one. That's by design, for sure.


Jeff Livingston

Hi, Jeff. Saw you playing 2 times but never saw you not in a match or would have said hello in person.

Yeah, i don't have a problem with a tournament that is catered to lower level players on purpose. Just say so upfront and save the higher handicap guys their money.
 
I think Dr. Pool's handicap system takes away from what 99% of the peoples goal is in pool, to win the game! Not score as many points as you can.....

IMO, handicap it by games, not points. Anyone including intermediate(b), or open(c) can make 4,5,6, 7 balls in a row.. Anyone can have a "good stroke". It just doesn't make sense for people to be rewarded for making balls. I would be willing to bet that if you ask all(most) the b or c players that if they would want to win knowing that they never won a game(pocketed the 8), they would say no.

I believe that you should also have at least 2 maybe 3 different divisions. The only ones that don't want this would be the A players. Playing against alot better players is great and all and I think it helps your game to a certain extent, but watching them run rack after rack isn't fun(for me!) Winning is fun.

Why do we win? cuz it feels good to say you won. If you look back on your performance and say, HEY I never won a single game but I beat that guy/girl!!! How does that make you feel?

I recently won the Great Plains Open Tourney. It felt good. Why? Because I had to win games to win.....

In the team event, it was handicapped by points. There were two times I was shooting last and the other team got mad at me because I asked how many points we needed to win. Sure, I'd rather just attempt to run out, BUT I chose to just make the amount of balls it took to win. Why? Because thats the rules provided for this tourney. It didn't feel as good.

Some will say that the better players don't get rewarded for running out. (If they want, I will give them a pin for each run out! )Well, thats part of the handicap I would say.... You would definitely play different with each set of handicapping.

FYI, this wasn't thought out very well so take it for what it is......mostly rambling:speechless:
 
Hi, Jeff. Saw you playing 2 times but never saw you not in a match or would have said hello in person.

Yeah, i don't have a problem with a tournament that is catered to lower level players on purpose. Just say so upfront and save the higher handicap guys their money.

Here's the DrPool website page where he list the players too good to play:

http://drpool.net/topamateurs.htm

Jamie Fenton,
Ron Omeara,
Josh Johnson,
and others...

I'd think you'd be on that list, too, as you're as good as those guys, from what I know about the local rankings, which isn't much.

Live and learn, I guess.:cool:

Jeff Livingston
 
Here's the DrPool website page where he list the players too good to play:

http://drpool.net/topamateurs.htm

Jamie Fenton,
Ron Omeara,
Josh Johnson,
and others...

I'd think you'd be on that list, too, as you're as good as those guys, from what I know about the local rankings, which isn't much.

Live and learn, I guess.:cool:

Jeff Livingston

I am not as good as them :/ Thanks for the compliment though :D He might as well add me though, i will not be giving him anymore of my money.
 
I've played many Dr Pool tournaments in Wisconsin. My skill level an A. I like playing them for the competition, socialization with other pool players, and a weekend away.
In the past Dean has tried to cater to the AA and Master players. He ran a tournament that was partners with $10,000 added. It brought some of the best players from the Midwest. From what I remember they had a total of 20-25 teams. This event was not handicaped. Dean and the casino lost money on the event and Dean lost the casino for many years.
The point is I am one of the many pool players that like shooting at his events. Dean does a great job running them and I'll continue to shoot them in the future.

- Cameron
 
Here's the DrPool website page where he list the players too good to play:

http://drpool.net/topamateurs.htm

Jamie Fenton,
Ron Omeara,
Josh Johnson,
and others...

I'd think you'd be on that list, too, as you're as good as those guys, from what I know about the local rankings, which isn't much.

Live and learn, I guess.:cool:

Jeff Livingston

It looked like the National BCA list that was supplemented by the old ISPA Elite list.

I enjoyed playing against those guys in the old MCPT (Tony Z.'s tour) that was around for a bit. And it was fun to watch those guys duke it out towards the end.

Yes -- I was donating in the MCPT. But I did learn that there were levels that I had yet to attain and the quality of play needed to be 'better'.

Saw SVB one time at an event, (before he was SVB) getting beat by Jesse Bowman... not sure that happens as much anymore...:D
 
FYI, this wasn't thought out very well so take it for what it is......mostly rambling:speechless:

Nothing wrong with rambling and getting your thoughts out there. :wink:

Winning games feels good because that's how you define things. If I told a basketball player that he lost 3 quarters he likely wouldn't care one bit as long as he won the game because that's how the endeavor is defined for him. In essence, that's what he defines the goal to be and that joy is coming from meeting that goal being set. Now, if he were in the NBA finals and I told him he won 3 games he'd be upset because the goal changed from winning one game to winning 4 games. In our example, we could look at quarters as a partition of the game or wins as a partition of the set and they'd be equal. What matters isn't winning a particular partition but winning the end goal.

It just so happens that in pool the dominant partition is wins in a set, and not balls in a win. To that point most pool games are defined by how the game is won. I admit, I have a problem with some pool games counting balls for that reason. To me, it makes sense to do it in straight pool, but not in 9 ball. So, for me, I'd also fall in the group that would naturally want wins counted and not balls.

The problem is that it is much easier to construct a handicap system by counting balls in this case rather than wins due to the nature of rotation games. Almost anybody can step up to the table and make a ball or two at least some of the time. The ability to run even one full rack, however, is not nearly as common due to the skills required in positioning the cue ball for subsequent shots. You could quickly run into scenarios where the players near the extremes of a skill set would never be able to match up in anything approximating an even match, which is the goal of handicapping to begin with.
 
Is this the new Iowa thread? Sorry the trip wasn't good J, it doesn't sound like you had any fun at all (pool related at least).
 
I went to this event and will put in my $.02

IMO this type of event is definitely favored for the level A/B players. The handicap system really makes it tough if not impossible for the AA/Master level players and the low level players just don't have enough game even with a very low handicap they just can't overcome their own worst enemy.......themselves.

There were some things I didn't like about this event.......poor lighting due to no table lights, but everyone had to deal with it so not a HUGE issue IMO, and a handicap system that could potentially let guys play at a 500-600 on paper but in all actuality be truly closer to a 700-750 range player. I ran onto one of those guys I believe and I lost that match but I did have a chance to win it.......I jawed an 8 ball late in the match that would have set me up for the win in the next game, so I blame myself more than anything for not advancing farther than I did. BTW.....I was set up as a 660, the guy who knocked me out was a 610 and those 50 points were definitely the deciding factor. :( But I did manage to cash in the top 32 - $40 payout was better than a kick in the pants.

That being said I understand this format from a businessman's perspective. The handicap system has the potential to draw MORE players to the event, which I think it did because there were over 160 entrants from what I understand.

I don't understand some of the complaints I've seen because the entry was only $25.00 and you got that back in comp play on the players cards for the casino so it was basically a free event to attend other than other personal expenses incurred (room,food,table costs,etc)

I liked the competition, I liked the low room costs (less than $60.00), I liked the casino, I liked the food, I liked meeting some new people (chefjeff and others) so I'd say that overall it was more of a plus than a minus for me to go play in this event.

I went to this event more for a warm-up the the VNEA State event coming up in a week and a half more than anything and because I had 3-4 friends also going to it.

I don't know the organizer of the event personally so I'm staying away from any comments on that angle but it seems like the guy has a passion for pool and pool events so he surely can't be all bad. :confused:

And the best part of the weekend for me were a couple of truly memorable shots I made in a few matches. I made a double bank shot on a ball that was frozen against the other players ball in the side pocket that gave me perfect position for my last object ball and the 8 ball to win one game, it was a truly beautifully executed shot and a couple people watching the game almost fell out of their chairs. That's a memory I'll treasure for a LONG time. And isn't that what this game and an event like this is truly about? Making great memories? I think a person just needs to put things in the right perspective, this a game meant to be enjoyed, no matter the win-loss ratio. :)

So there's my $.02 (well.....maybe a nickel since it was so long) LOL.

Best regards to all,

Trevor
 
It seems to me that there is a certain inequity in giving weaker players a handicap so that their chances of beating a stronger player have jumped considerably.

IMO, the better solution is to have multiple tiers or brackets in a tournament, so that pool players can compete with others within their bracket or perhaps one bracket above their current skill level. In chess tournaments, for example, there can be multiple brackets such as Open/Master/Expert/A/B/C/D/Unrated. Surely, we can figure out something similar in pool so that we raise the bar for excellent performance rather than dumb it down for the masses with handicaps.
 
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