Aim System or Common sense?

champ2107...Just a reminder (before you come down on Matt, who is an accredited & accomplished teacher, and a published author)...normally the better instructors are not necessarily the best players. Different mindset...different skill set. Just food for thought...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Maybe if he had a system, he wouldn't be just a local top player and he would be a national top player? Let us look at the top three finishers at the sbe, Shane, Stevie and daz. All three apparently use systems and have hit a few million balls, so if they have god given talent or whatever, why use a system? I think there is a reason they use them and that there world class. If I do not understand why something works, I am also smart enough to not write it off as bs!
 
no more arguing for me on here Scott lol no buddy ever seems to win or lose on this board, well i dont anyway :) i will give my opinion and back anything up with a video if need be and thats it :)
 
mohrt...Great post! Agree 100%! Add to that, "talent" is overrated (just like the book), and can be "learned" (by some people, and not by others...the key is to figure out which one you are), with the right kinds of practice, and time on the table. The other variable is that no matter how much you practice, you still have to brave competition, whether it be leagues, tournaments or gambling. Playing competitively is where you have to come with the shot/stroke, on demand, under pressure...in ONE try! LOL If we got 3 tries, we'd all be Earl or Johnny! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

An aiming system just gets you to the geometric center of the pocket. Anything else (spin, throw) is additive, you have to work that out with the talent you speak of ;) That said, if you can consistently find center pocket you give yourself maximum wiggle room for the additive stuff.
 
No argument here either. I just wanted you to know, in case you didn't. Rarely are the best teachers the best players. That doesn't mean they don't have valuable information to convey to their students. Two examples of best instructor=best player are Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath...so it's possible, just rare! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

no more arguing for me on here Scott lol no buddy ever seems to win or lose on this board, well i dont anyway :) i will give my opinion and back anything up with a video if need be and thats it :)
 
mohrt...your 'local top player' doesn't realize that he IS using an aiming method...it's call "feel", and is one of at least 7 methods commonly taught and used. It's certainly a legitimate way to aim. I don't think there are any pros that don't bank by "feel". Like everything, it always comes down to a mixture of speed and spin!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I showed CTE to a local top player. His first reaction was "why?" As in, just look at the shot and shoot it dummy! :D
 
mohrt...your 'local top player' doesn't realize that he IS using an aiming method...it's call "feel", and is one of at least 7 methods commonly taught and used. It's certainly a legitimate way to aim. I don't think there are any pros that don't bank by "feel". Like everything, it always comes down to a mixture of speed and spin!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sure it is a legitimate method, but I wouldn't categorize it as a "system" in the context of pocketing balls. There is learning by ROTE or feel, then there are systems that help guide a person in a more systematic way. Did I get that right? :D
 
Now this what I come Azbilliards for!!!

Great advice Palmerfan Thank you. I tried it and it works after I add about 1/2 hour to an Hour to it (I use the clock system) depending on the shot. It is another tool to add to my tool box. Keep the advice coming.:thumbup:
 
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Matt...In your article you state catagorically that contact point aiming will result in a miss. That's not true...see Joe Tucker's site for some edification (he teaches contact point aiming, and even has a ball set to go with it). The real truth is that with an accurate and repeatable stroke, ANY aiming method will give pretty consistent results. With a poor stroke, NO aiming method will work very well.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Not quite what I'm saying there. I am recognizing that contact point aim-through center cue ball-will score too thick on many shots by sheer geometry--yet it works well on shots between 1/4 and 3/4 hit for a wide variety of reasons...
 
No argument here either. I just wanted you to know, in case you didn't. Rarely are the best teachers the best players. That doesn't mean they don't have valuable information to convey to their students. Two examples of best instructor=best player are Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath...so it's possible, just rare! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You forgot to add Stan Shuffett to your list of "Best Instructor=Best Player". Stan is still out there competing on the tournament trail, letting the chips fall where they may; even playing in the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship AND DOING EXTREMELY WELL. That's putting it out there for the world to see.
 
You forgot to add Stan Shuffett to your list of "Best Instructor=Best Player". Stan is still out there competing on the tournament trail, letting the chips fall where they may; even playing in the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship AND DOING EXTREMELY WELL. That's putting it out there for the world to see.
I think there are two reasons for "those who can't teach":

1. Top players often learn by mimicry of other nearby players or play by instinct and cannot impart their knowledge to others (with some notable exceptions)

2. Top teachers struggled to get where they are and so are human encyclopedias of pool knowledge (with some notable exceptions)

I just did a two-part expose of what many top teachers are now "teaching":

Top Dollar Gets You This With Colleagues

Solving A 15-Year Pool Problem
 
I think there are two reasons for "those who can't teach":

1. Top players often learn by mimicry of other nearby players or play by instinct and cannot impart their knowledge to others (with some notable exceptions)

2. Top teachers struggled to get where they are and so are human encyclopedias of pool knowledge (with some notable exceptions)

I just did a two-part expose of what many top teachers are now "teaching":

Top Dollar Gets You This With Colleagues

Solving A 15-Year Pool Problem

Where's those links about what pros know and you don't know or they don't want you to know? :smile:

The two links above were full of gold!
 
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Strangely enough, that's exactly how I aim. I just always assumed that I subconsciously adjusted to get the proper hit. The ghost ball never worked for me. I can't aim at something that's not there.

I almost agree!! I even make almost 90* cuts using the aim the ferrule at the contact point!!!
How can it be????:o
My brains are toast. :o
I should have said, the edge of the ferrule!
 
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I suggest that before you claim to know what teachers are teaching, and then go writing articles that essentially do nothing but slam everyone else and praise yourself, that you first go find out first hand what others are actually teaching.

In my mind, what you did in that article was pretty low. Not to mention very self serving at the expense of others. And, complete hearsay and speculation with NO first hand knowledge. There's a name for those that try to build themselves up by tearing others down.
Thank you for your comments.

I have firsthand and secondhand experience with a great many top teachers, some of them corresponding with me quite frequently and now. I'm on the instructional staff for InsidePool also.

I did not "slam" other teachers, and used frequent disclaimers within both articles like this one below:

"And I'm reporting secondhand what [the student] says these instructors told or taught him. It might be considered rather unfair to criticize someone's teaching methods from just one secondhand comment (although I do know some of these teachers and their methods from past experience)."

And the second article, which it looks like you hadn't read (I'm not accusing you here, just commenting, Neil) had this disclaimer, for one:

"And certainly, it's possible with all the fine teachers Bill worked with in the past that he did not comprehend what was shared with him and that I was simply bringing him instruction he'd had before to a different light."

I also withheld names, but it is my hope that some of these teachers will read the comments and recognize their shortcomings.

Our whole sport could stand a refinement in teaching, me included. Because of abuse on the forums like this one (not referring to your comments above, Neil) most teachers won't even demonstrate aim methods and systems. How bizarre is that?

I myself have been criticized, fairly and unfairly, and it comes with the territory. It has to do with being a leader--expect criticism.

I'll also say here on the AZ Forum that I'm aware as many of the readers are that the comments about the teachers are spot on--and in my case, from firsthand, not secondhand experience. Many of these folks have websites, books and DVDs besides--it's all [not] there.

Note also how this thread comments on how some top players are not good teachers and vice versa. It just goes with the territory.

And did you notice that my student spent umpteen thousands of dollars to meet with hall-of-fame players and top teachers and was still missing shots to one direction? One fellow had him making a stroke and alignment change for six months that did not one thing to help his pocketing ability. This sort of thing is not a rarity in pool teaching at all.

Thank you.
 
Where's those links about what pros know and you don't know or they don't want you to know? :smile:

The two links above were full of gold!
Thank you, Joey. Here are some sample links like that:

A Pro Aim Method

A Classic Stance

8 Different Stroke Methods

I specialize in secrets revealed and have over 100 instructional articles up at About.com besides my book and DVD, and private lessons.

And there's a difference between true modesty (humility) and false modesty. People pay me hard-earned dollars for private lessons so I can guarantee positive results. By contrast almost every player has been burned by a lesson, "aim system" or "top teacher". Start with either a BCA-certified instructor or someone who can give quality references.
 
Thank you, Joey. Here are some sample links like that:

A Pro Aim Method

A Classic Stance

8 Different Stroke Methods

I specialize in secrets revealed and have over 100 instructional articles up at About.com besides my book and DVD, and private lessons.

And there's a difference between true modesty (humility) and false modesty. People pay me hard-earned dollars for private lessons so I can guarantee positive results. By contrast almost every player has been burned by a lesson, "aim system" or "top teacher". Start with either a BCA-certified instructor or someone who can give quality references.

I like the part about start with someone who can give quality references. That's always a good thing. Kind of like your moxy too. OK, I kind of like your instructional articles too. :D Thanks for the links. I'll try to catch up on them as time goes on.
 
Blah Blah Blah for aiming systems. Most pros admit to spinning the cue ball, especially Earl and Mike Sigel. There was an article on AZ about 3 years back with postings from a magazine or newspaper, I forget which.

Now I ask anyone, how in the frick can you do all this spinning and have an aiming system? Spinning is based on feel.......natural talent.
Eh, I'd like to reply to this one.

Up to 50% of maximum english is needed to "spin in" cut shots if you're referring to using outside english to gear against contact-induced throw. To which I'd add two points:

1. You can use SMALL amounts of pivot or other english to reduce throw and "spin" cut shots in.

2. The phrase "spinning balls" also has to do with feel. Feel the balls at impact and even after, watch them spin out of impact to roll toward the pocket. Take careful note of how a bit of vertical or side spin or both afffects the rolling object ball when you cinch it, etc.

Everyone on this forum probably spins balls in but uses different terminology for this difficult to convey aspect of feel on cut shots.
 
Up to 40% of maximum english is needed to "spin in" cut shots if you're referring to using outside english to gear against contact-induced throw.
Matt,

The amount of spin required for "gearing" outside English depends on the cut angle. For a 1/2-ball hit, the amount required is about 40%. For smaller cuts, less spin is required; and for larger cuts, more spin is required. For a given cut angle, too little spin throws the OB in the cut-induced-throw (CIT) direction and too much spin throws the OB in the spin-induced throw (SIT) direction. For demonstrations and more information, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
Dr. A:

You are certainly correct. Small amounts of english are of course for balls close to the pockets. Very few people will get practical use of 40% of english on a cut shot, as you know.
 
... Very few people will get practical use of 40% of english on a cut shot
Matt, you must mean something different than I do by "40% English." 40% English is not very much at all ... it is less than 1/2 (50%) of maximum English (which occurs at the miscue limit). See the "tips of English" resource page for more information and illustrations. Here's a diagram from one of the articles:

tips_percent_English.jpg

Here's another diagram that illustrates maximum (100%) English:

maximum_tip_offset.jpg

40% English is what is required to "spin the ball in" for a 1/2-ball hit, a very common pool shot (of very much "practical use").

Now, you might also mean something different by "spin the ball in," but I think the generally accepted definition is you are using English to prevent cut-induced throw (CIT). In other words, gearing outside English is being used. As I mentioned in my previous post, different amounts of English are required for different cut angles to accurately "spin the the ball in." Check out all of the videos and articles available via the links when you find some time. You might find some of it interesting.

Best regards,
Dave
 
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