How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

Agreed, this is where the meat of the system lies. What I do know is that through repetition and practice, this part becomes automatic. I also know that you are unwilling to accept that.
I aim entirely without the use of any system. Through repetition and practice, that has become automatic. I (and everybody I know) call it aiming by feel. I don't really care if you want to call it something else. What I'm unwilling to accept is the misleading claim that these systems don't do the same thing with the added assistance of "reference" alignments.

pj
chgo
 
I aim entirely without the use of any system. Through repetition and practice, that has become automatic. I (and everybody I know) call it aiming by feel. I don't really care if you want to call it something else. What I'm unwilling to accept is the misleading claim that these systems don't do the same thing with the added assistance of "reference" alignments.

pj
chgo

Actually it does do the same thing: you start with a reference, you end with a shot line. For ghost ball, the reference is invisible balls and/or invisible points. For CTE, the reference is edges and centers of balls. The former may work fine for some, the latter for others. I like discreet references, so I like the CTE approach.
 
O.K., Sean. Let's just say that's true. Then why aren't the same people crying about "feel" in every other aspect of playing pool? Why aren't they demanding precise steps on stroking the cb, or where to hit the cb to have it go to position A instead of position A- or A+? It's because they aren't really concerned that there is feel in pool. They know there is. But, they are against CTE because they have so much time invested in knocking it that they don't know how to do anything but knock it. No matter how weak the argument, or how stupid, they just have to knock it.

You don't see them asking detailed instructions on how to stroke straight. And then asking "precisely, what is straight?" It's just ridiculous.

Neil:

Do you think it's really that bad? (Bolded part.) I don't, honestly. I think Pat's just trying to get down to the bottom of this -- perhaps he's the correct "wristwatch-disassembling and reassembling" mind we've been looking for, and the owners of the wristwatch are just taking exception to the process he's using to disassemble the wristwatch? (Just conjecture on my part, I may be wrong.)

Unlike other posters, I don't think Pat's trying to "knock" the system at all, but rather trying to put a term or label to certain processes used in the method. And I think you'll have to agree that the "f" word -- feel -- is not universally welcomed in the aiming system camp, because it'd been used as a hammer by non-aiming-system camp for quite a while. I think Pat's usage is not a hammer at all, but a way to rationalize that particular process.

-Sean
 
I aim entirely without the use of any system. Through repetition and practice, that has become automatic. I (and everybody I know) call it aiming by feel. I don't really care if you want to call it something else. What I'm unwilling to accept is the misleading claim that these systems don't do the same thing with the added assistance of "reference" alignments.

pj
chgo

what does this mean exactly? you through out these vague comments all the time when it seems your stuck. Its funny watching you often paint yourself into a corner and fall back on the same thing over and over to try and get yourself out of it.
 
Neil:

Do you think it's really that bad? (Bolded part.) I don't, honestly. I think Pat's just trying to get down to the bottom of this -- perhaps he's the correct "wristwatch-disassembling and reassembling" mind we've been looking for, and the owners of the wristwatch are just taking exception to the process he's using to disassemble the wristwatch? (Just conjecture on my part, I may be wrong.)

Unlike other posters, I don't think Pat's trying to "knock" the system at all, but rather trying to put a term or label to certain processes used in the method. And I think you'll have to agree that the "f" word -- feel -- is not universally welcomed in the aiming system camp, because it'd been used as a hammer by non-aiming-system camp for quite a while. I think Pat's usage is not a hammer at all, but a way to rationalize that particular process.

-Sean

PJ has knocked this system many times in the past. Now he is realizing it works and works well so he has no choice but to slowly change his stance or he will have to admit he has been wrong for the last 15 years, do you think Pj is the type of guy to admit that? he knows when to hit the brakes and who to stay away from and zig zag around things.
 
The Math can be done


CTE is a system and mathematically it can be verified.

Now who is going to do it?
While I am a Staff Senior Systems Engineer, I cannot do it.
My guess is Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave could do it given enough time.
Or some computer kid who understands Finite Element Analysis can do it.

I'm sure that Stan Shuffet could probably explain this (i.e take personal lessons from Stan).
Hopefully in his next revision of his DVD, he will explain CTE more clearly.

Hey Stan when is your new revision coming out.
I am in for 3 copies, Barney.

Hal Mix was my teacher and personnel friend and he did not teach CTE.

Hal Houle offered to teach me but, I refused, it was a big mistake !!!
He was also my friend.

I am now in the process of learning CTE.

I am going to try and get Paul to review this thread.
Hal Houle and Paul developed CTE together.
We play once a week for 6 hours.
Paul is getting stronger every day, hopefully we will play twice a week if he isn't too tired or busy.
 
I aim entirely without the use of any system. Through repetition and practice, that has become automatic. I (and everybody I know) call it aiming by feel. I don't really care if you want to call it something else. What I'm unwilling to accept is the misleading claim that these systems don't do the same thing with the added assistance of "reference" alignments.

pj
chgo

By your description above it should be called aiming by experience. That's what repetition and practice give you. Technically aiming by feel would be aiming by inexperience. As what an absolute beginner who has had no instruction whatsoever would do.

What you do is aiming based on your experience. And even with all your experience you still fidget, or at least you did fidget last time I saw you, looking for the right shot line after you are already down on the ball. Using that approach you do have decent success.

So if you want to call this groping around aiming by feel then fine. But it's pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum from what system aimers use.

System aimers start with a specific and objective, meaning real, reference point and follow a set of instructions to guide their motions to get to the shot line. They know that this provides the correct shot line and so they get down on the ball with no fidgeting and no searching. This is the opposite of feel. It's very mechanical at first and eventually gets very fluid with experience and practice.
 
By your description above it should be called aiming by experience. That's what repetition and practice give you.
Whatever you want to call it, this part of aiming is done by both system users and non-system users, and if we can accept the real similarities and stop bickering about terminology, then we might do some constructive note-comparing that could benefit both "camps".

pj
chgo
 
Feel • Spiel

I aim entirely without the use of any system. Through repetition and practice, that has become automatic. I (and everybody I know) call it aiming by feel. I don't really care if you want to call it something else. What I'm unwilling to accept is the misleading claim that these systems don't do the same thing with the added assistance of "reference" alignments.

pj
chgo

Feel Spiel......

CTE/Pro1 is probably the most visually accurate aiming system out there. It's visual objectivity is second to none. Paper based aiming systems don't supply the needed components that most players need. That is why CTE/Pro1 continues to gain in popularity despite the attempts to discredit it, under the guise of clarification.

The best way to clarify it, is to become proficient with it. If you can't do that, you're spinning your wheels.

If your last bastion of hope is based upon that all aiming systems require feel, you can at least, get a nod from me. I've never shot ANY shot that didn't require some smattering of feel in some form or another.

Finally, CTE/Pro1 is probably the most efficient and precise way to learn how to aim "automatically". After using CTE/Pro1 for a period of time, you will then start to aim in a very precise manner and it will be automatic, with little conscious effort. If any aiming system helps you get to the PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE, it has done it's job.
 
CTE is a system and mathematically it can be verified.

Now who is going to do it?
While I am a Staff Senior Systems Engineer, I cannot do it.
My guess is Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave could do it given enough time.
I've already put in a lot of effort and time into explaining how the various versions of CTE actually work when they are used effectively. To arrive at the wide range of aiming lines required to create a large range of cut angles from the limited number of initial alignments, "adjustments" (whether subconscious or not) must be made. My CTE evaluation and analysis page explains and illustrates four possible approaches for doing this. With practice and experience, one can learn to implement one or more of these approaches "naturally;" but I personally think that the people who can do this well probably don't need a formal "aiming system" anyway (although a consistent pre-shot routine, as recommended by many of the "aiming systems," can certainly be helpful).

Regardless of whether or not "aiming systems" like CTE or fractional-ball aiming are "mathematically valid" or "geometrically accurate" or "feel based with adjustments," I think everybody can agree that they can offer some people many benefits.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:
CTE/Pro1 continues to gain in popularity despite the attempts to discredit it, under the guise of clarification.
To help those who don't use fractional systems to recognize their potentially useful aspects, I'll continue to attempt to credit these systems for what they can teach anybody - despite your continued attempts to perpetuate hostility (like by your coining and repeated pushing of the divisive labels "yaysayer" and "naysayer").

pj
chgo
 
To help those who don't use fractional systems to recognize their potentially useful aspects, I'll continue to attempt to credit these systems for what they can teach anybody - despite your continued attempts to perpetuate hostility (like by your coining and repeated pushing of the divisive labels "yaysayer" and "naysayer").

pj
chgo

I'll look forward to your future threads about how CTE/Pro1 excels at helping players improve their game.
 
Whatever you want to call it, this part of aiming is done by both system users and non-system users, and if we can accept the real similarities and stop bickering about terminology, then we might do some constructive note-comparing that could benefit both "camps".

pj
chgo

Huh?

You are the one trying to redefine the terms. Using language like cut angles to refer to reference lines is an attempt to redefine the conversation to suit you.

Aiming system users have analyzed this in much more depth than you have and we understand everything about the nuances of the systems. We understand them both from the intellectual level and from the practical level.

Skill comes from knowledge and practice. No one has ever disputed that.

Where you have a problem is believing that a player can jump in skill dramatically when it comes to shotmaking simply by learning an aiming system. You want to say that it's the subconscious that is doing all the work and yet on the other hand you say that your skill comes from experience and practice.

The fact of it is that just about any player can improve their shot making in minutes to hours by learning a good aiming system. The aiming system is the reason they immediately improve. How well they can then hold onto it and integrate into their overall game is up to their dedication to practicing what they learned so that it becomes fluid.
 
... english changes everything..... Add CIT and SIT and none will meet the geometric tests ...

When we talk about aiming methods, we (or, at least, many of us) are simply talking about methods for putting the cue stick in the vertical plane that runs through the center (core) of the cue ball and the center (core) of the ghost ball. If the shot were struck with the stick in this plane, it would be a shot with no side spin. So english, CIT, and SIT have no role in the statement of the basic aiming method. They are secondary or supplementary to the aiming method.

Now, I well know that many players actually bring their stick into final shooting alignment while already accounting for spin (off-center hit) and attack angle.

But when talking about an aiming method and whether it is geometrically correct, ignore side spin.

Ghost-ball aiming and contact-point-to-contact-point aiming are geometrically correct. I repeat, that does not mean that one of those is be best method for any particular player.
 
i will make a quick video on what we are all taking about and where i see the feel part is involved, when i get chance. i can see in this thread who understands it al and who doesn't ... i will try and end all this once and for all without exposing the system some how.

This site constantly needs to be reloaded, wtf...or is it just me?
 
Stan says different visuals not different eye position and there is a big difference in the understanding here. Your referring we have to use different eyes (left or right ) for different set-ups and thats not true. Neil is right you don't have the understanding of cte down to perfection.

When Stan talks about different visuals and eye positions it's in direct relationship to the intended pocket.

No, Stan said different eye positions for the same visuals: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2964303#post2964303

And I said nothing about the use of different eyes for different set-ups. Where did you get that?
 
Back
Top