The "Z" kick

[Patrick Johnson]

On my GCII, "Z" kicking two rails corner to corner requires aiming about 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 diamonds up on the first rail. It is a dead ball kick when aiming there

One third the length of the playing area = 2 2/3 diamonds, so on your table at that starting angle the shot works just about on the "equal angle" path.

I wonder how much each rebound angle differs from equal angle (i.e., where the CB contacts the 2nd rail).

I also wonder how things change at different starting angles. I'd guess that the amount the second rebound shortens up increases as the starting angle gets steeper, but begins decreasing again after a point (45 degrees?).

pj
chgo

 

[Aaron_S]

One third the length of the playing area = 2 2/3 diamonds, so on your table at that starting angle the shot works just about on the "equal angle" path.

I wonder how much each rebound angle differs from equal angle (i.e., where the CB contacts the 2nd rail).

I also wonder how things change at different starting angles. I'd guess that the amount the second rebound shortens up increases as the starting angle gets steeper, but begins decreasing again after a point (45 degrees?).

pj
chgo

It really changes a lot on my table based on different starting angles. Kicking full table like I described, the cueball truly does follow an angle-in=angle-out path for the most part, but kicking half-table (side pocket to corner pocket) is radically different. The angle shortens so much off of the second cushion that the aim point for the Z kick is only slightly shorter than the aim point for kicking 1 rail into the adjacent corner.

Aaron

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It really changes a lot on my table based on different starting angles. Kicking full table like I described, the cueball truly does follow an angle-in=angle-out path for the most part, but kicking half-table (side pocket to corner pocket) is radically different. The angle shortens so much off of the second cushion that the aim point for the Z kick is only slightly shorter than the aim point for kicking 1 rail into the adjacent corner.

Aaron

This agrees with my experience shooting z banks (I haven't tried many z kicks, but assume they're pretty similar with a center CB hit).

pj
chgo

 

[Underclocked]

The shot is also very speed dependent so developing a true rule is nearly impossible. My "by guess, by golly" method seems to works as well as any. :grin:

 

[Chi2dxa]

Need a little help Please.

Ok (and I am not trying to be funny) will someone break what Jimmy is trying to say into basic atoms for me Please. Pretty Please he is giving a formula but I just cannot follow what he is saying so Please some one decipher it for me. Step by Step, I hope that I am making myself clear.

 

[bbb]

Ok (and I am not trying to be funny) will someone break what Jimmy is trying to say into basic atoms for me Please. Pretty Please he is giving a formula but I just cannot follow what he is saying so Please some one decipher it for me. Step by Step, I hope that I am making myself clear.

you are not alone
i also am not sure i understand his system

 

[Aaron_S]

Jimmy's explanation is hard to follow. I think I get what he's saying, but I want to try to put it into practice and test it. If it ends up working for me, I will try to do a writeup on it with diagrams for everybody. A reliable system for these types of kicks would be pretty valuable IMO.

Aaron

 

[CreeDo]

I don't use a system exactly, but I try to roughly visualize it in thirds... which is easier if the OB is near a pocket and the CB is near the opposite long rail. Imagine a perfect Z, the first rail at 1/3rd the distance between balls, 2nd rail at 2/3rds, OB at 3/3.

What has helped me make these viable and not so random is to hit at a certain firm speed, with a bit of reverse english aiming at the first rail. This becomes a touch of running english on the next rail (I think?) or it might be just that the reverse prevents the CB from picking up any running english, and we're hitting the 2nd rail as a rolling ball with no spin.

That might seem needlessly complicated but if you don't do it, the ball picks up that running english on the first rail, and when it hits the 2nd rail it really bites in, leaving the rail at a much flatter angle than the approach. That shortening up makes the shot really awkward to predict.

With the reverse added, it seems to move on a more natural line.

The trick is to find a speed where the reverse doesn't hold up the ball excessively on the first rail. I still aim somewhere "north" of my first 1/3rd to account for it.

tldr; it's mostly feel but see if reverse on the first rail makes it easier to feel for you.

 

[bbb]

Jimmy's explanation is hard to follow. I think I get what he's saying, but I want to try to put it into practice and test it. If it ends up working for me, I will try to do a writeup on it with diagrams for everybody. A reliable system for these types of kicks would be pretty valuable IMO.

Aaron

Aaron
that would be great
thanks in advance for your time and effort
:thumbup:

 

[Neil]

................

 

[Aaron_S]

If you don't already know how to kick one rail using his double the distance method, what he is saying probably won't make any sense to you. If you do know it, then you should be able to follow what he is saying.

Neil, I am trying to apply his system to a corner-to-corner "Z" kick, and I am not coming up with the right spot. I know on my GC I have to aim about 2.5-2.75 diamonds up on the first rail (shorter if I use running english as he suggests), but his system (based on my understanding of it, at least) is coming up with 3.5 diamonds or so. I am adjusting for the OB being 4 diamonds from the opposite long rail (4 X 1/4 = 1 diamond), and 8 diamonds from the opposite short rail (8 X 1/16 = 1/2 diamond). Mirroring the width of the table out from that spot gives me an aim point that is way too long for this kick. Have you tried to apply his system to this kick and come up with the correct aim point?

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[Nostroke]

all i can say is that off the second rail the angle will straighten up some unless the first angle is real wide.jmho

 

[supergreenman]

Ok (and I am not trying to be funny) will someone break what Jimmy is trying to say into basic atoms for me Please. Pretty Please he is giving a formula but I just cannot follow what he is saying so Please some one decipher it for me. Step by Step, I hope that I am making myself clear.

What I got from the video is that he's started out using a mirror system to bring the CB to the point on the rail where the object ball lies 90 degrees out. From there you move the mirror back 1/16 of a diamond for every diamond the OB is from the contact rail.

An example would be your CB is in line with the 2nd diamond and the pocket, the OB is straight out from the 4th diamond but 1 diamond out from the rail.

In this situation you would move your aim point back from the 2nd diamond 1/16.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[Aaron_S]

O.K., here's the shot- put the cb in the right head corner. (right looking from the head of the table) Put the object ball in the left foot corner. You want to two rail off the side rails to make the ob. A Z kick.

The cb and ob are 8 diamonds apart. The ob is 4 diamonds off the same rail as the cb is on. (or 4 diamonds off the last rail you will hit) You have 4 diamonds, so you take 1/16diamond per diamond, which comes to 4/16 or 1/4 diamond. The balls are 8 diamonds apart, so you multiply the 1/4 diamond by 8 and get 2 diamonds. So, 2 diamonds is your adjustment.

Now, to find what you are adjusting from- take your cue, and put the tip on the rail across from the ob and mark the cue with your finger to where the butt crosses the opposite rail. Hold that mark on the cue. Now, all you have to do is put your tip on the rail at the ob, and move your cue down rail the 2 diamond adjustment you figured. Look from your mark on the cue to the cb, and you will see where that line crosses the rail. Where it crosses the rail is where you hit.

Ok, so you are doing the calculation differently - wow, I certainly didn't get that from the video. That does move the aim point a half a diamond in the right direction, but is still 1/2 to 3/4 of a diamond longer than I usually aim for this shot. As you say speed and spin are huge, as with all kicks, and I usually play my shot slightly above center, no side spin, and pocket speed. I know that there is a spin speed combo that will allow me to hit 3/4 of a dot longer than usual, although I'm sure if I put any running english at all on it I will have to shorten it with draw, which would be senseless overuse of spin. I'm hoping a hard center ball hit will do it, as I have a strong aversion to kicking systems that require side spin when a simple speed adjustment will produce the same effect much more predictably. I will experiment tonight and report back.

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ok, so you are doing the calculation differently - wow, I certainly didn't get that from the video. That does move the aim point a half a diamond in the right direction, but is still 1/2 to 3/4 of a diamond longer than I usually aim for this shot. As you say speed and spin are huge, as with all kicks, and I usually play my shot slightly above center, no side spin, and pocket speed. I know that there is a spin speed combo that will allow me to hit 3/4 of a dot longer than usual, although I'm sure if I put any running english at all on it I will have to shorten it with draw, which would be senseless overuse of spin. I'm hoping a hard center ball hit will do it, as I have a strong aversion to systems that require side spin for no other reason than to make the system seem viable. I will experiment tonight and report back.

Thanks,
Aaron

The video was a little hard for me to follow when I first saw it too - I even drew a diagram to help me decipher it. I understand it the same way Neil does.

A quick way to think of the math is width x height x 1/16 (CB-OB lateral distance x rail-OB vertical distance x 1/16).



pj
chgo

 

[supergreenman]

Not quite. You start out with the equal-opposite, or mirror system. Then, you see how far the ob is off the second rail you will hit. Lets just say it is 3 diamonds off the second rail. So, you take 1/16 diamond for each diamond which gives you 3/16 diamond. NOW, you see how far apart the ob and cb are by diamonds. Let's say they are 5 diamonds apart. So, you now take that 3/16 diamond and multiply it by 5 to get 15/16 diamond. So, you take your mirror spot, and just go up table 15/16 diamond, and mirror off that spot the width of the table.

Thanks for the clarification Neil. makes total sense.

 

[pool101]

The video was a little hard for me to follow when I first saw it too - I even drew a diagram to help me decipher it. I understand it the same way Neil does.

A quick way to think of the math is width x height x 1/16 (CB-OB lateral distance x rail-OB vertical distance x 1/16).

View attachment 226117

pj
chgo

This diagram shows another method I have used, I try to visualize the line from the cue ball to the first rail and the line from the second rail to the object ball as 2 parallel lines. It will get me on the ball most of the time.
Mark

 

[bbb]

If you don't already know how to kick one rail using his double the distance method, what he is saying probably won't make any sense to you. If you do know it, then you should be able to follow what he is saying.

Neil could you explain or pm that
i dont know that system of his either
i have his dvds and i got so confused i havent watched them enough ti understand it...:embarrassed2:................