More on old Victor table

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chucknduck

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I have some previous posts (Just search chucknduck) trying to find information about table. But so far no one has been able to positively I.D. model and year table was made. I have spoken with current owner of Lanza billiards (was Victor back in the day) and he thought after seeing first round of photo's that this was a Rex or a Palmer built in the 30's or 40's ( see http://lanzabilliards.com/ ), there is catalog picture of Rex which has the angled back leg with smooth rounded front (mine are fluted front and straight). In the photo of the "20th Century" I see exact same aprons metal corners,ball box and rack in apron over box as mine but the whole cabinet (base) is different . I sent him some more photo's (after consulting with him about the now extinct K 27 cushions) so he could do a little more research into it (waiting to hear back from him).
The little I do know is that the table was in a pool hall in the Baltimore (Dundalk? Essex ) and at 10 feet probably the tournament table there (?semi -educated guess). Some of this info came from older gentlemen who sold it to me for 100 dollars (was going to give it away but saw my excitement and decideded to make "some" money). I have kept it here semi restored until I could "convince" wife that lally column needed to go to create large enough space for play area (took 19 years of convincing plus life,money,other priorites that got in the way) , and now that column is gone the project is underway.
I always thought it would be nice to know a little more about the table. I've been hoping that maybe someone on here will see this and recognize it or have one like it or know someone who does or have played on it or one like it.
 

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Frank Lanza partnered with the Victor Billiard Co., later to become simply Lanza Billiards.

Like many table makers at the time, apparently Frank was fond of building knock-offs of Brunswick* designs, but on the other hand, he did come up with a pretty slick ball return system...the patent below shows the exact ball return system you have in your table..
patent granted 1931

patents


Yours is definitely a Lanza/Victor table, that I estimate to have been built about 1940-45. (shortly after Perrin's version was patented)

Sorry but at the moment I dont have any model name or any documentation myself, but I can recommend looking for a copy of their "Streamlined and Modernistic" catalog (1940), I'm thinking it would probably be in there.

*designers Donald Deskey and Paul Perrin

This is Paul Perrin's version, for Brunswick:

patents
 
catalog's?

know where I might find this catalog or begin looking? I will send and email to Ed Lanza to see if he's got one.
 
Hard to say. But I might ask a few of the (antique) table restoration experts if they have any documentation on it. Ken Hash, Jerimy Chambers, Joe Newell etc..
 
Mr. Bond said:
Hard to say. But I might ask a few of the (antique) table restoration experts if they have any documentation on it. Ken Hash, Jerimy Chambers, Joe Newell etc..
Click to expand...

Took a rail over to Ken's (only a few miles from me) to get advice on fininshing them (stain matching edges to caps since rails are capped with rosewood and edge was something lighter,walnut maybe, plus do you make them look new or old/restored ) and replacing the extinct K27 cushions plus he had sight inlay's and felt for ball box.
From my descriptions of the table he thought at first it could be another brand tagged with Victor parts but then told him all major parts are stamped with same number (#1300) and most big wood sections have hand written #38092, which would say it was built by the same place at the same time.
The finished look I'm going for will be old/restored (some nicks,dents ball marks etc.) since some of the bruise marks on the cabinet won't come out (solid wood, tried the steam ironing method which got some out) and some dents would require excessive sanding, I figure it will look better overall with some character. Other option was to paint entire table like it was originally (biege with small specks= Deckle color? :see old Victor catalogs) but seemed a shame to hide all the nice hard maple.
 
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I would imagine that, like the 'Adelphian' model, it was probably trimmed or painted in such a way as to clearly distinguish it from the Brunswick 'Streamliner' and other such models, to avoid getting sued.

The Lanza site shows the cover page of a couple of early 40s catalogs, perhaps they have the whole catalog?

Or hell, you never know, it may even have been a custom ordered table, unlike any in the catalogs.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I would imagine that, like the 'Adelphian' model, it was probably trimmed or painted in such a way as to clearly distinguish it from the Brunswick 'Streamliner' and other such models, to avoid getting sued.

The Lanza site shows the cover page of a couple of early 40s catalogs, perhaps they have the whole catalog?

Or hell, you never know, it may even have been a custom ordered table, unlike any in the catalogs.
Click to expand...

Thats what I'm starting to think since Ed Lanza so far has not been able to identify it and also no one else has said that they have seen one just like it.
 
there is also a (slightly lesser but real) possibility that someone harvested the ball return and rails from a Victor, and married them to different body. as strange as it sounds, it does happen.

if Ken is not far, i would have him at least verify that its not a Brunswick frame/body
 
Just noticed that the side panel pieces look different in the 2 pics OP posted.
Wonder if the fancy side panel was an add-on.
 
Panels

Dartman said:
Just noticed that the side panel pieces look different in the 2 pics OP posted.
Wonder if the fancy side panel was an add-on.
Click to expand...

The panels are my handy work. I decided to create panels (carefully routered groove to make rectangles). Reason for it was because the table is built with many solid slabs of wood(3 per side and ends, no veneers) and they didn't match grain or shading ( see photos in previous post http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=247938 "old victor 5 x 10") since table was designed to be painted . By staining the panels darker I was able to hide some flaws in the construction (knots,darker areas next to lighter piece etc.) and dark panels match how I stained the aprons and feet.
I understand altering an old table like this may offend some but saw this as a good way to keep it natural looking instead of painting over it all.
 
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flooring

Dartman said:
Laminate flooring comes in a gazillion wood tones and would be my choice.
Click to expand...

Thanks,.. I have been leaning that way (or maybe cork) will have to research a bunch a find out what holds up the best in basements ( always possibility of water damage),... seems some folks like the comfort of carpet tiles ,... hmmmm???
 
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