A Double Hit is NOT a legal APA shot
- Thread starter droveto
- Start date
Years ago they did a thing called "The Jacksonville project" where they filmed pool shots in excruciatingly slow motion. It was kind of funny, you actually double hit the cue balls on shots all the time. Almost every time you follow any shot you make contact more then once same with draw shots. I still have a copy of the tape I bought from I think Bob Jewett.
Another interesting APA rules clarity thread...
Here is something that might help this discussion. In the newest version of the rule book, they added a definition for "double hit" to officially incorporate the guidelines they use in Vegas as I described in the other thread. Check it out:
DOUBLE HIT: A double hit is an illegal shot involving the tip of the cue stick coming into contact with the cue ball twice during the execution of a single shot. This foul may occur through double clutching the cue ball, or in situations where the cue ball is nearly frozen to the object ball or rail. In the latter example, the double hit often occurs due to the difficulty in moving the stick away from the shot quickly enough to avoid the cue ball rebounding back into the stick. In general, you can lessen your chances of committing this type of foul by hitting the cue ball into the object ball or rail at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a double hit.
They also offer a definition of a "Push Shot", which is identical in both versions of the manual:
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.
This section is specifically referring to when the cue ball and object ball are *frozen*. Now this information has become quite dated. Plenty of evidence (including high speed video) supports the idea that a double hit does NOT (and can not) occur when the balls are froze, even if you stroke directly through the balls. I think the sentence "It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal" should be removed, since it is false. Now if the frozen object ball or cueball come in contact with with a rail or another ball while stroking, well then that is very likely to result in a double hit foul.
I actually think in this situation, the APA more or less covers the situation. As usual, it could be worded more clearly. Also, the information could be consolidated into one section, rather than sprinkled over the rules in various places and the definitions section of the book. Still, regardless of how the rules are worded, the ability and knowledge of the *REF* in question will always determine the correctness of a call.
KMRUNOUT
Here is something that might help this discussion. In the newest version of the rule book, they added a definition for "double hit" to officially incorporate the guidelines they use in Vegas as I described in the other thread. Check it out:
DOUBLE HIT: A double hit is an illegal shot involving the tip of the cue stick coming into contact with the cue ball twice during the execution of a single shot. This foul may occur through double clutching the cue ball, or in situations where the cue ball is nearly frozen to the object ball or rail. In the latter example, the double hit often occurs due to the difficulty in moving the stick away from the shot quickly enough to avoid the cue ball rebounding back into the stick. In general, you can lessen your chances of committing this type of foul by hitting the cue ball into the object ball or rail at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a double hit.
They also offer a definition of a "Push Shot", which is identical in both versions of the manual:
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.
This section is specifically referring to when the cue ball and object ball are *frozen*. Now this information has become quite dated. Plenty of evidence (including high speed video) supports the idea that a double hit does NOT (and can not) occur when the balls are froze, even if you stroke directly through the balls. I think the sentence "It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal" should be removed, since it is false. Now if the frozen object ball or cueball come in contact with with a rail or another ball while stroking, well then that is very likely to result in a double hit foul.
I actually think in this situation, the APA more or less covers the situation. As usual, it could be worded more clearly. Also, the information could be consolidated into one section, rather than sprinkled over the rules in various places and the definitions section of the book. Still, regardless of how the rules are worded, the ability and knowledge of the *REF* in question will always determine the correctness of a call.
KMRUNOUT
If players can't come to a consensus on something as simple as a double hit, we're going to have some serious problems with the push shot.
Let's nail down the double hit first and make the push shot the one of controversy. Both through my own observation of some high speed videos (on Dr. Dave's site...not sure those are the same ones), and what others have said about them, I thought they pointed to the exact opposite conclusion.
KMRUNOUT
I didn't know push shots were controversial.Have not even heard the term for years.If I have a frozen ball situation I will usually point it out to my opponent so they know that a double hit is not in play.
I will have to get the tape out and see if it still works. I haven watched it in years. It is very show motion like the speed that you use to see a bullet. I have never watched any of the Dr Dave videos I will have to check them out.
The APA rule quoted says that a synonym is "double clutching". I don't use that term but I would take it to mean that the player hits the cue ball lightly on a warm up stroke and then comes back and hits it again. I think such "double clutching" is very different from the double hit due to a close ball.
It would be nice if the APA adopted the official rules of pool.
It would be nice if the APA adopted the official rules of pool.
I think the Jacksonville tapes don't show double hits on normal shots. A major problem was that the shots by Iron Willie did not have the normal slowing of the cue stick due to the very tight coupling of the stick to Willie's arm, and that tends to make the cue stick not slow down as much as it will normally on a hand-held shot.
Your right Bob.Like when a player accidently contacts the CB on a practice stroke and then shoots real quick.
Do you still have masters of the tapes? I think some people would like to see what you did. Maybe put them on dvd.
Who among has not done that a few times.
Addressed here in section g:
g. Causing movement of the cue ball, even
accidentally, is a foul.
I suppose the super nits here will then say that means that any time the player even plays a normal shot that it's a foul because they caused movement of the cue ball... And it will go on forever...
Not allowed to alter the movement of the cue ball after it is struck. I believe this is a rule we all should agree to accept and it seems within the guidelines of the rules as stated in two different locations in the rule book...
And now it's time for me to go the pool hall and practice legal double hits.
uugghhh!!! I recently changed my stance so the cue is more under my left eye, as my left eye is very dominant. Shot making is great, but I have tapped the cue ball on warmup strokes a couple of times in the last month, which is more than in the last 10 years lol!
KMRUNOUT
It looks like a double hit, at least near frozen hits, used to be legal in the APA. I just got out a 2003 version of the manual and the definition of the Push Shot shows that a close double hit wasn't considered illegal, but could be considereed unsportsmanlike. I don't know when the rule changed.
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen or nearly frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen or nearly frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.
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I think anyone with normal reading comprehension and a lack of knowledge of the game would come to that conclusion. My conclusion: the APA has a lousy rule set.
As God as my witness I've never done it once. People who know me know I'm good action and don't have a Desire to cheat at all.
I think some people "double clutch" (hit the ball on a warmup stroke and then again on the final stroke) not by any conscious process but just as a sort of automatic reaction to fudging the cue ball.
The best player I ever saw do it was a former state 14.1 champion who was playing 14.1 on a wide-open table. He tapped the cue ball and then quickly shot again at very high speed -- much harder than for the shot it looked like he was planning. It seemed to me at the time that he realized in an instant that he had fouled, that the cue ball would end up in almost in the same position with lots of shots available, and that if he shot hard and mixed things up, it might come out safe. But I'm the suspicious type, and maybe it was just an involuntary reaction on his part. I wasn't the ref for the match fortunately, so I didn't have to decide on a penalty.
It's something that has occurred over time. I don't like the way it's worded either. This part:
"Even after having addressed the cue ball, a player
may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further
adjustments with the hand, cue stick or any other
reasonable piece of equipment. A foul may be called
only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue
ball, meaning a double hit of the cue ball (sometimes
called double clutching)."
is reactionary verbiage. One of the most frequent questions I get from people is "So-and-so had ball in hand and touched the cue ball with the tip of his cue while he was positioning it. Is that a foul?"
I think I get that question because under some rules it is a foul to touch the cue ball with the ferrule or tip of the cue while positioning it. IMO, that rule is dumb, but because of it APA has to address the situation in their own rules.