Is taking pool instructions a good idea?????

[thommy]

I had a couple lessons for the first time recently. $125 for two 1 1/2 hour lessons.

Well worth the $ to me.

64 now, started at 16, hadn't played in years.

 

[acousticsguru]

And this is understandable, because when you look at it, books and DVDs are "tangible" -- you can touch them, and convince yourself of the "long term value" you're getting out of them. But lessons? You can't touch them, and it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that lessons are like "dinner or a night out" -- you enjoy it while it's happening, but after that, <poof!>, it's gone, and you only have the memories. Or so the thinking goes (which I, personally, know is completely misguided and wrong).

Great story, Sean! And I agree wholeheartedly with this bit. I took lessons with Jerry Briesath 23 years ago, and what I remember is in my head, part of my system, and thus with me all the time - it's more "tangible" than anything I could lay hands on!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[PGHteacher]

Bhale there is nothing that can replace good instruction in terms of speeding your improvement at the game. Finding a good instructor is harder than one might think; best to ask lots of questions like “what can I expect?”, “what is your course/program like?”, “how long are the sessions?”, “do you have specific goals over various time periods?” and the like.

Also when you say “Drills?, not me” I think you are not keeping an open enough mind. Think about this question and you don’t really have to give an answer: What is the difference between 1) A Drill 2) A single player game 3) Warming up 4) A practice game?

Good luck to you; say how far away from Pittsburgh are you?

 

[JoeyA]

Instructors come in all shapes and sizes. What I really mean is that there are different instructors with different abilities to teach.

A lot depends upon what you need or what you wish to learn.

Some instructors can't run a rack consistently but are excellent at teaching fundamentals. I never understood that but it is what it is.

A few instructors can run multiple racks and can teach just as well.

Some top players can show you and sometimes teach you things that the instructors can't teach you.

It really depends upon what your needs and desires are.

Get references before you hire anyone and not just references on Internet forums. Go to the people in your pool room and find out who they revere as an instructor and as others have mentioned, interview them, CAREFULLY. Ask for the instructors to demonstrate their prowess whatever that might happen to be, whether it is their ability to spot defects in your fundamentals or their ability to demonstrate the proper way to run a rack. Some of the instructors travel and others you have to go to them.

Good luck.

 

[bhale]

Pittsburgh is about 2 -2.5 hours from here.

WOW, you guys have given me a lot to think about, not just whether or not to get lessons ( and it sounds like i should ) but what i need to ask them. As i said, i don't know anyone that has taken lessons so the internet is my first referance for information on that. My first thought was Mike Segel who is the house pro at Champion Billiards in Frederick Md, only 1.5 hours from my house and i read on here someone, can't remember who, was pleased with his experience with him. Maybe i can call out there and see if Mike shows up at a certain day/time so i can chat with him. I also had the idea i'd like to record the time i spend with an instructor but that may be frowned upon.

I've got a ton of books and a few videos and they helped some but it really is my style/technique that's the problem and needs to be fixed........

Brian

 

[Scott Lee]

Great story Sean, but it has to have an understanding that Doug did not initially utilize the information he was given. Instead, he continued to struggle for a few months. THEN, he decided to do the work, and ultimately gained the long term benefit...a more consistent way of setting up and delivering the cuestick accurately and repeatably, under pressure. A student MUST be willing to put in the work, or the lessons won't have much of an effect in the long run. Thanks for the kind words! I'm looking forward to a followup with Doug, one of these days. :grin-square:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This sums it up right here. If you have a GENUINE interest in getting better, you'll put your pride issues away (many people have pride issues that are against allowing someone else "deconstruct" his or her pool-shooting style), and let an instructor show you what you're doing wrong. Just because someone can run 5-6 balls during a game doesn't mean he/she is "doing the majority of things right, and just needs a few pointers." One can get to a level of proficiency with flawed mechanics that may disguise the fact that he/she even has flawed mechanics in the first place.

I have a friend, we'll call him "Doug," that is in his 70s. He's probably been shooting pool for longer than I've been alive. He's an avid APA player, and at the time, was rated a "4" in skill level for 8-ball. Yes, that's right -- he's been playing pool for probably 50 years, and he was only a "4" (a top-flight "4", mind you, because he often wins APA Singles Boards & the Regionals, but a "4" nonetheless). Doug was very successful in playing within the APA structure, and thought that the reason why he was a "4" was because he'd been playing so long and reached the limit of his ability.

Doug played on more than just the APA leagues; he also played on a local traveling league in the Danbury, CT area that I also played in. Doug realized something was wrong, because while he did well in the APA, he didn't do so well in the local traveling league. Whenever he and I played, for example, he got smoked -- badly. And that confused him, because in the APA, Doug took pride in the fact that he was known as a "7 killer." But he didn't stand a chance against any of the 7s (like myself) in the local traveling league. (The local traveling league had the same skill level rating system as the APA -- 2 through 7 -- although the rules for 8-ball are a little different, e.g. call-shot for every shot in the local traveling league.) I got to befriending Doug through the local traveling league, and we're good friends today, in fact.

Doug sidled up to me one day, and we got talking. He dipped his cards, and revealed to me that he's a serious pool player, and would I mind giving him a few lessons. I accepted, and we began at his house one day. Doug needed to have his whole "pool shooting picture" deconstructed and rebuilt, because he was doing everything wrong -- stance, head/eye position (he thought he was right-eye dominant, when, while watching him, I immediately saw that he is actually left-eye dominant), stroke (he was a believer in the "cue must travel absolutely straight like a piston" thing, rather than let the weight of his arm naturally do the work in a pendulum), and grip (he believed all fingers must maintain contact with the cue at all times, rather than let the cue naturally "pivot" inside the grip). However, after a few hours of working with Doug, I realized I was in over my head, because I simply did not have the equipment at the time to show Doug what he was doing. I was able to correct many things, but not all of the things that were holding him back.

I referred Doug to Scott Lee. And I kept referring Doug to Scott every chance I got. Doug was resistant, because he didn't like the idea of "spending money" on pool instruction vs. purchasing books or DVDs -- he didn't understand the value he was going to get out of it. And this is understandable, because when you look at it, books and DVDs are "tangible" -- you can touch them, and convince yourself of the "long term value" you're getting out of them. But lessons? You can't touch them, and it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that lessons are like "dinner or a night out" -- you enjoy it while it's happening, but after that, <poof!>, it's gone, and you only have the memories. Or so the thinking goes (which I, personally, know is completely misguided and wrong).

Long story short, after a lot of strong-arming on my part, I finally got Doug to belly up to the bar and book a date with Scott Lee. And in keeping long story short, what resulted was nothing short of amazing. First, were the profuse apologies to me by Doug for my having to strong-arm him all that time -- the old, "gosh, was I stupid, why didn't I take your advice sooner and do that sooner?" thing. Second, was the lauding of Scott's value for the money -- Doug came away and loudly proclaimed that it was the best money he ever spent on anything pool-related. Third, was the final deliverable for him -- that he came away with style-changes, a set of marked-up videos by Scott to refer to ("before" and "after"), and a set of customized drills that put him on the road to get past the barriers that were keeping him back.

Doug is now a "6" in the APA, getting stronger and stronger every day, and he's no longer the pushover that he used to be in the local traveling league, either. He plays straight pool and rotation games now (where he didn't before), and appreciates *all* the cueing sports -- including snooker and 3-cushion billiards -- whereas previously, he looked at those as "fringe" sports. Doug even placed in the single digits -- two years in a row -- in the APA Singles Nationals in Vegas and took home a couple grand each time.

That's just one example of what personalized instruction can do. I'm sure there are other posters who can regale the OP with true accounts of the long-standing value that instruction can bring you.

Hats off to Scott Lee on this one!

-Sean

 

[Scott Lee]

bhale...I'd go with a professional instructor, over a professional player, for your first experience with lessons. BTW, I will be in your area in a couple of weeks, and I record the entire lesson on dvds, for your permanent review. PM me if you're interested.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Pittsburgh is about 2 -2.5 hours from here.

WOW, you guys have given me a lot to think about, not just whether or not to get lessons ( and it sounds like i should ) but what i need to ask them. As i said, i don't know anyone that has taken lessons so the internet is my first referance for information on that. My first thought was Mike Segel who is the house pro at Champion Billiards in Frederick Md, only 1.5 hours from my house and i read on here someone, can't remember who, was pleased with his experience with him. Maybe i can call out there and see if Mike shows up at a certain day/time so i can chat with him. I also had the idea i'd like to record the time i spend with an instructor but that may be frowned upon.

I've got a ton of books and a few videos and they helped some but it really is my style/technique that's the problem and needs to be fixed........

Brian

 

[LAlouie]

Good input guys, Thanks!

A bit more about what i'm looking for...... I'm 50yo and my eyesight is just starting to fade but it's not a problem yet. Drills? not me. When i so out and shoot by myself i'll work on a few shots that trouble me but i get bored with that real quick so i tend to work on position play and using loads of english, another of my faults. I'm not looking to turn pro, just want to improve my odds of winning when i do shoot with others. I really enjoy the game. I started when i was 16 and played steady till i was ~40. Gave it up for awhile and 2 years ago took it up again only to find i was no where near as good as i was and i'm only improving very slowly so i thought a leaaon might be the way to go.

How much money are we talking about here?
Perhaps someone pointing out my flaws would be a big help?
Is there a good place to find lessons near me?

Thanks!!!
Brian

Based on what you just said, don't waste the money. You already have the experience and you probably know more than you think. You'd probably be further along than you are if you applied YOURSELF more, but you are a casual player. If you want someone to point out your flaws just look for someone fairly good to play. Everyone knows more than they think, ie a decent C player is good enough to teach a newbie. So trying playing with B+ players.

For pointing out flaws, I'm of the belief that nothing teachers better than you watching yourself on video.

 

[Scott Lee]

The real problem there is that most people have no idea what to look for. A qualified instructor can help you with that.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

For pointing out flaws, I'm of the belief that nothing teaches better than you watching yourself on video.

 

[sfleinen]

bhale...I'd go with a professional instructor, over a professional player, for your first experience with lessons. BTW, I will be in your area in a couple of weeks, and I record the entire lesson on dvds, for your permanent review. PM me if you're interested.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

And I'd have to agree with the bolded part.

One thing I didn't mention in the story about Doug, was that Doug was no "virgin" to pool instruction. In fact, one of the reasons why he was resistant to retaining Scott's services, was that Doug had a so-so experience with his last instance of taking lessons. Doug had taken lessons from Bob Begey ("Bristol Bob" from the CT area -- used to be Kid Delicious road partner, and is described in the book "Running the Table"). Unfortunately, Doug did not have a good experience. One thing was that Bob was trying to enforce things on Doug that Doug simply could not do. For instance, Bob was trying to force the "index-finger-pressing-down-upon-middle-finger" closed bridge on Doug, which Doug's 70-year-old fingers and semi-arthritic knuckles could not do. Bob was also trying to enforce other aspects of his own style upon Doug, which didn't make sense. The result was that Doug came away with almost nothing, except a lighter wallet.

And this is where the approach of a focused instructor differs significantly from a great pro player that tries to teach -- experience with the art of instructing itself. Instructors have experience with students from all walks of life, and are able to work with the foundation that the student already has. Pro players that teach, tend to want to completely replace the student's fundamentals with his/her (that pro player's) own style, because that's all they (the pro player) knows.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Great story Sean, but it has to have an understanding that Doug did not initially utilize the information he was given. Instead, he continued to struggle for a few months. THEN, he decided to do the work, and ultimately gained the long term benefit...a more consistent way of setting up and delivering the cuestick accurately and repeatably, under pressure. A student MUST be willing to put in the work, or the lessons won't have much of an effect in the long run. Thanks for the kind words! I'm looking forward to a followup with Doug, one of these days. :grin-square:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No problem, Scott. I call 'em as I see 'em. As to Doug not initially utilizing the information he was given, that, along with the fact that I'm not nearly the level of instructor you are, is one of the contributing factors why I referred Doug to you. Doug had a habit of "resorting" to what he knows, and I didn't have an answer to that after my session with him. I just knew you'd have the answer for that. And he didn't see the improvement immediately then, either -- like you said -- until he put the work in on the stuff you taught him. Only then he saw the improvement he sought.

I'm sure Doug will do a follow-up with you, don't worry about that.

-Sean

 

[acousticsguru]

Pittsburgh is about 2 -2.5 hours from here.

WOW, you guys have given me a lot to think about, not just whether or not to get lessons ( and it sounds like i should ) but what i need to ask them. As i said, i don't know anyone that has taken lessons so the internet is my first referance for information on that. My first thought was Mike Segel who is the house pro at Champion Billiards in Frederick Md, only 1.5 hours from my house and i read on here someone, can't remember who, was pleased with his experience with him. Maybe i can call out there and see if Mike shows up at a certain day/time so i can chat with him. I also had the idea i'd like to record the time i spend with an instructor but that may be frowned upon.

I've got a ton of books and a few videos and they helped some but it really is my style/technique that's the problem and needs to be fixed........

Brian

Video-taping your session with an instructor is an excellent idea, as there's usually too much to take in. It's definitely one of the first of those questions you may want to ask. I've heard good things about Mike Sigel's instruction, by the way, but have yet to witness him teaching first-hand.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[acousticsguru]

Based on what you just said, don't waste the money. You already have the experience and you probably know more than you think. You'd probably be further along than you are if you applied YOURSELF more, but you are a casual player. If you want someone to point out your flaws just look for someone fairly good to play. Everyone knows more than they think, ie a decent C player is good enough to teach a newbie. So trying playing with B+ players.

For pointing out flaws, I'm of the belief that nothing teachers better than you watching yourself on video.

I agree with Scott: many of my students have said to me in hindsight that they didn't "apply themselves" because it seemed "useless" - they didn't know what to do! It's frustrating to spend hours practicing without seeing any progress. Also, from a teacher's point of view I cannot recommend learning everything the hard way as if there were some special merit in how much nerve and time it cost, asking everyone and the electrician for some superficial knowledge. Certainly not when it comes to technique, as e.g. matters of stroke are very much linked to a player's self-perception and confidence level, especially when they do not yet know what to look for when they watch a superior player. It's this odyssey kind of learning process that makes people give up, and to finish this mini-rant (I apologize…), it's neither easier nor better (nor, necessarily, worse) to help someone who figures to have "tried it all" already.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[LAlouie]

The real problem there is that most people have no idea what to look for. A qualified instructor can help you with that.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'm not talking about "most people". I'm talking about well-versed players. A solid B/B+ is fine for the OP. There's a lot of knowledge to cull from that group, AND the OP will find a good B easier than he will a qualified instructor, and won't have to pay. He will also have the benefit of seeing the B/B+ in his area anytime he wants, as opposed to an instructor who, as you have mentioned about yourself, might drift into his area and move on in a week or a month.

Unless a student is dedicated and decides to apply all that he is taught after the instructor leaves, which this OP doesn't seem to be, he will lose what he was taught. It is easy for a student of this type to drift after he loses interest. Thus the money spent is wasted and the meeting with the instructor ends up being a one-shot deal. Therefore, it's better for the OP to find good players to play, learn from them, with the advantage of playing them often. His "education" then becomes ongoing. In essence, he will learn by osmosis whether he wants to or not, and the effort put forth will be easier on the OP.

 

[acousticsguru]

I'm not talking about "most people". I'm talking about well-versed players. A solid B/B+ is fine for the OP. There's a lot of knowledge to cull from that group, AND the OP will find a good B easier than he will a qualified instructor, and won't have to pay. He will also have the benefit of seeing the B/B+ in his area anytime he wants, as opposed to an instructor who, as you have mentioned about yourself, might drift into his area and move on in a week or a month.

Unless a student is dedicated and decides to apply all that he is taught after the instructor leaves, which this OP doesn't seem to be, he will lose what he was taught. It is easy for a student of this type to drift after he loses interest. Thus the money spent is wasted and the meeting with the instructor ends up being a one-shot deal. Therefore, it's better for the OP to find good players to play, learn from them, with the advantage of playing them often. His "education" then becomes ongoing. In essence, he will learn by osmosis whether he wants to or not, and the effort put forth will be easier on the OP.

"Osmosis" is a great term in this context. It takes more time than free flow. Also, that kind of learning process works best for people how know what to look for. There's lots of knowledge available out there, maybe too much - the problem is to get the help one needs. Of course, if one can find the ideal tutor and get his or her attention and care for free, more power to them.

EDIT: Not sure if the mind of American players works the same way, but with the Swiss, I can guarantee you that once (= that very moment) they spend their hard-earned money on instruction, that is when they start applying what they learn. I'm almost exclusively teaching adults - the one thing they know is they want something in return for their money. I like that - makes certain things much easier.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[bhale]

I'm not talking about "most people". I'm talking about well-versed players. A solid B/B+ is fine for the OP. There's a lot of knowledge to cull from that group, AND the OP will find a good B easier than he will a qualified instructor, and won't have to pay. He will also have the benefit of seeing the B/B+ in his area anytime he wants, as opposed to an instructor who, as you have mentioned about yourself, might drift into his area and move on in a week or a month.

Unless a student is dedicated and decides to apply all that he is taught after the instructor leaves, which this OP doesn't seem to be, he will lose what he was taught. It is easy for a student of this type to drift after he loses interest. Thus the money spent is wasted and the meeting with the instructor ends up being a one-shot deal. Therefore, it's better for the OP to find good players to play, learn from them, with the advantage of playing them often. His "education" then becomes ongoing and not a one shot experience. In essence, he will learn by osmosis whether he wants to or not, and the effort put forth will be easier on the OP.

Actually, that's a big part of my problem, finding a good player that i can shoot with in the limited time i have available. Since my alarm goes off at 3am 6 days a week, i'm in bed by 9pm at the latest so even joining a league is off the table. There's a lot of tables within 30 minutes of my house, both bars and halls, but i'm home before the players start to come out.

Yea, i know, stop pi$$ing and moaning and do what i need to do....

Thanks
Brian

 

[bhale]

I agree with Scott: many of my students have said to me in hindsight that they didn't "apply themselves" because it seemed "useless" - they didn't know what to do! It's frustrating to spend hours practicing without seeing any progress. Also, from a teacher's point of view I cannot recommend learning everything the hard way as if there were some special merit in how much nerve and time it cost, asking everyone and the electrician for some superficial knowledge. Certainly not when it comes to technique, as e.g. matters of stroke are very much linked to a player's self-perception and confidence level, especially when they do not yet know what to look for when they watch a superior player. It's this odyssey kind of learning process that makes people give up, and to finish this mini-rant (I apologize…), it's neither easier nor better (nor, necessarily, worse) to help someone who figures to have "tried it all" already.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.



_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

WOW, Have We Met????

You've really hit it with that statement. It's like OK, i suck at long kicks so i'll 2 hours a day every day for the next 3 months proving it. That's what it feels like and why i'm considering lessons.....

Brian

 

[LAlouie]

Actually, that's a big part of my problem, finding a good player that i can shoot with in the limited time i have available. Since my alarm goes off at 3am 6 days a week, i'm in bed by 9pm at the latest so even joining a league is off the table. There's a lot of tables within 30 minutes of my house, both bars and halls, but i'm home before the players start to come out.

Yea, i know, stop pi$$ing and moaning and do what i need to do....

Thanks
Brian

That DOES sound like a problem . However, as you say, it's 6 days/wk so there is that 7th day. Is that your day of rest? Nonetheless, the rest holds true. You must ask yourself what you will do with any new found knowledge. Are you the type to work on it. If you are not, you WILL lose it, that's a guarantee.

The other thing you should reflect on is, is this sudden urge to learn a frustration of the moment, and itch you want to scratch? A attempt to immerse yourself into the pool environment the quickest way possible. To me, it sounds like it is. You're away from pool, you come back, and you can't shoot. Lot's of people at your level has been through this. You then say, "Wtf do I play and have to go through this. What a waste". Well, you put yourself through this because the game is a beautiful game, and that's why you keep coming back. However, there's a reason why you are in your current position and it largely has to do with your makeup, not the lipstick-rouge kind, but the personality makeup kind :smile:

If you pay an instructor, are you the type to stick to the plan and make it worthwhile. Yup, you're in a bit of a sticky wicket.

 

[acousticsguru]

WOW, Have We Met????

You've really hit it with that statement. It's like OK, i suck at long kicks so i'll 2 hours a day every day for the next 3 months proving it. That's what it feels like and why i'm considering lessons.....

Brian

LOL! I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour! Find the right instructor, and spend maybe half an hour whenever you can with some special drills he or she may design for or trim to your personal needs, and more importantly, spend all the rest of your playing career e.g. doing your pre-shot routine, or stroking that cue ball the way you'll know feels and is right. Adding the latter because it's worth realizing it's not all about doing boring drills - on the contrary: the lessons I took most helped me with what I learnt to do better for each and every shot, even if I'm merely fooling around (which admittedly, is rare, but still, that's what it's really about: consistency). Recognizing we need and want help is an important step. Cheers and all the best to you!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

So I'm considering taking some pool lessons but I've never met anyone who has and i don't know if it's a good use of time and money.

I'm an average player. Playing 8 ball on a barbox i can usually run 5-6 balls before i miss and i can get a ball on the break 80% of the time. I see patterns and usually think 3-5 balls ahead. Mostly i just get further and further out of line with each shot till the shots get too hard.

What's your experience with instructors?

Brian

Be specific about what you want out of instruction. I could be incorrect but from the sound of your post it seems you would get the most benefit out of someone who can teach you the game (of 8 Ball) rather than someone who can teach you how to use a cue stick to hit a ball, so to speak. If that is the case I would lean more towards the house pro kind of instruction, or lessons from a player - someone who can teach you the game.

I recall a conversation with Dave Hemmah a few years ago about lessons and the first thing he asked me was "Do you want to learn how to play pool (fundamentals) or do you want to learn the game of 9 Ball?"