APA question

K

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please, if don't like the apa or any other league then post your comments about how much you hate leagues in another post.
I heard from some league players about what we think is an unusual situation. I would like to know what you think and if you know of any rules concerning this.
A player plays in two different counties. He is a 6 in one county (a) and a 7 in another(b). He goes to play in 'a' for a chance to go to vegas. He is told he has to play as a 7 his highest rating in any apa league.
Now jump to the tournament in the other county. A player is a 3 in this county (a) and a 4 in the other(b).
This person is allowed to play at the lower rating. His team wins. They are going to Vegas. The other players are saying that this is not the apa rule. He should have played as a 4 because that is his highest rating even though it is in another county.
If the league operator made a mistake and he was supposed to play at the higher rating....What would you do? Replay the whole tournament? The player did not cheat. He was told by the lo to play as a 3.
Again, please, stay on the subject. I know some people do not like leagues. That's ok, but, I would like to know what should happen here.
 
kaznj said:
Please, if don't like the apa or any other league then post your comments about how much you hate leagues in another post.
I heard from some league players about what we think is an unusual situation. I would like to know what you think and if you know of any rules concerning this.
A player plays in two different counties. He is a 6 in one county (a) and a 7 in another(b). He goes to play in 'a' for a chance to go to vegas. He is told he has to play as a 7 his highest rating in any apa league.
Now jump to the tournament in the other county. A player is a 3 in this county (a) and a 4 in the other(b).
This person is allowed to play at the lower rating. His team wins. They are going to Vegas. The other players are saying that this is not the apa rule. He should have played as a 4 because that is his highest rating even though it is in another county.
If the league operator made a mistake and he was supposed to play at the higher rating....What would you do? Replay the whole tournament? The player did not cheat. He was told by the lo to play as a 3.
Again, please, stay on the subject. I know some people do not like leagues. That's ok, but, I would like to know what should happen here.
Click to expand...


I believe at a higher level tournament you have to play at your lowest attainable skill level. So the answer to this question should come down to:

Is the tournament the SL3/SL4 played in considered a higher level tournament?

If the answer is yes than all the matches involved with that player should be forfieted.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I believe at a higher level tournament you have to play at your lowest attainable skill level. So the answer to this question should come down to:

Is the tournament the SL3/SL4 played in considered a higher level tournament?

If the answer is yes than all the matches involved with that player should be forfieted.
Click to expand...

This is what would happen in Vegas if this occurred there.
In our league if you play in another county and we can't confirm your rank.....your a 7/9.
 
I have a friend who plays 8-ball on Wed and Thurs evenings. For some reason, he is rated a SL6 on Wed and a SL5 on Thurs.

A) no country boundary is required for this kind of sillinesses to transpire
B) these rating numbers were stable over all of last year
C) he has been rated in APA for more than 5 years
D) he plays every week (3 seasons a year)

This is what happens when there is no transparancy in the computation of the SL rating.
 
Since the APA went to the National Website for reporting, and from all I know you can only have one (1) APA Player Number .....

1) unless the two leagues are run by different League Operators I find this hard to believe

2) Although the League Operators are the ones submitting the scores to the National Site ... somebody must know that there are discrepencies ...

3) That's why APA SUCKS .....
 
MitchAlsup said:
I have a friend who plays 8-ball on Wed and Thurs evenings. For some reason, he is rated a SL6 on Wed and a SL5 on Thurs.

A) no country boundary is required for this kind of sillinesses to transpire
B) these rating numbers were stable over all of last year
C) he has been rated in APA for more than 5 years
D) he plays every week (3 seasons a year)

This is what happens when there is no transparancy in
the computation of the SL rating.
Click to expand...

This is an issue with your league operator. Handicaps are not by team, but by entire league performance. I am not sure what they have going on there......the Equalizer keeps a skill level of all matches of both 8 and 9 ball. If match results are recorded timely there should not be a difference in a persons handicap after the first week of the session.
 
I don't have the answer because I'm not sure if there is 'one' answer. I can only tell you I've been on both sides of the same issue.

We had a player once get put UP to a higher level at a Tourny cause we were told she had to play at the highest level she had reached during the last regular session. And we once had another who actually got put down a level during the Tourny based on play during that Tourny.

So I guess anything is possible depending on who the big dog is during that event.
 
"The player did not cheat. He was told by the lo to play as a 3. "

What is the name of this APA LO who knew someone was a SL 4 in the adjacent area yet allowed him to play as a SL 3 ?

This assumes we are NOT talking about 8 ball in one area and 9 ball in the other. Because that would account for it, if so.

Give us a name. And don't say "I don't want to start trouble" or "I don't want to make anyone mad" or "blah, blah, blah ".

Give us the name of the APA LO you are talking about.
 
kaznj said:
Please, if don't like the apa or any other league then post your comments about how much you hate leagues in another post.
I heard from some league players about what we think is an unusual situation. I would like to know what you think and if you know of any rules concerning this.
A player plays in two different counties. He is a 6 in one county (a) and a 7 in another(b). He goes to play in 'a' for a chance to go to vegas. He is told he has to play as a 7 his highest rating in any apa league.
Now jump to the tournament in the other county. A player is a 3 in this county (a) and a 4 in the other(b).
This person is allowed to play at the lower rating. His team wins. They are going to Vegas. The other players are saying that this is not the apa rule. He should have played as a 4 because that is his highest rating even though it is in another county.
If the league operator made a mistake and he was supposed to play at the higher rating....What would you do? Replay the whole tournament? The player did not cheat. He was told by the lo to play as a 3.
Again, please, stay on the subject. I know some people do not like leagues. That's ok, but, I would like to know what should happen here.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear here, you're talking about two different LO's, right? One raised the 6 to a 7 and the other didn't raise the 3 to a 4.

There is no national rule that says the 6 has to play as a 7 just because he's a 7 somewhere else. It may be a local bylaw, in which case the scenario you describe makes sense as one county's bylaws don't apply in the other county. I don't think it's a local bylaw issue though. It wouldn't be hard for someone to slip through the cracks if that were the case, and the LO would be in a pickle when it did.

It could be an LO feeding a player a line because he/she doesn't want to say "You have to play at 7 because I think you are a 7." That's all that is required - everyone signs a certification form stating that the APA is the highest authority when it comes to skill levels. If this is what happened, the 6 should call the LO on it - there's no reason to lie to players.

It could also be a misunderstanding - what was said and what was heard may have been two different things. This is third-hand information, so the message also could have changed as it was passed along. I can imagine a scenario where the LO said "you must start at your highest session-ending skill level since your team qualified" (true), and the player heard "highest skill level", then passed that on to others who assumed "highest skill level" meant in any APA league.

Without details of the actual conversation, there's no way to tell what really happened. In any case, the LO who didn't raise the 3 to a 4 did nothing wrong. Those matches should stand.

If I misunderstood the original post and this was ONE LO instead of two, then it could still be a line or a misunderstanding, or it could be an oversight with regard to the 3. Without details, though, it's impossible to tell.
 
kaznj said:
Please, if don't like the apa or any other league then post your comments about how much you hate leagues in another post.
I heard from some league players about what we think is an unusual situation. I would like to know what you think and if you know of any rules concerning this.
A player plays in two different counties. He is a 6 in one county (a) and a 7 in another(b). He goes to play in 'a' for a chance to go to vegas. He is told he has to play as a 7 his highest rating in any apa league.
Now jump to the tournament in the other county. A player is a 3 in this county (a) and a 4 in the other(b).
This person is allowed to play at the lower rating. His team wins. They are going to Vegas. The other players are saying that this is not the apa rule. He should have played as a 4 because that is his highest rating even though it is in another county.
If the league operator made a mistake and he was supposed to play at the higher rating....What would you do? Replay the whole tournament? The player did not cheat. He was told by the lo to play as a 3.
Again, please, stay on the subject. I know some people do not like leagues. That's ok, but, I would like to know what should happen here.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that your handicap is computed by the Equalizer System, making it a national handicap. Doesn't matter where you play. :confused:
 
OneIron said:
I was under the impression that your handicap is computed by the Equalizer System, making it a national handicap. Doesn't matter where you play. :confused:
Click to expand...

I thought this too. I cannot see how if an APA league player, who has one and only one member I.D. number, can have different skill levels no matter how many different counties he/she plays in. It seems like it would be: One I.D. number=one skill level.

Something smells of tuna in the OP's scenario.

Maniac
 
OneIron said:
I was under the impression that your handicap is computed by the Equalizer System, making it a national handicap. Doesn't matter where you play. :confused:
Click to expand...

This is incorrect. Skill levels are kept at the local level by each LO. The APA National office will only have a record of your s/l if you play at a national event. Your local team championship is not considered an HLT. When you play at a national event (singles or the NTC) the s/l you leave there with is your lowest attainable skill level. In the case mentioned by the OP, playing at the NTC would bring the skill levels together for a time, but they can still vary from area to area but should never dip below what they left the national tournament as. Note the word "play" If you don't play at a national event even if you/your team qualifies you don't get locked with a lowest attainable
 
In both cases, the 6/7 and the 3/4 there two different counties and two different league operators. Both cases are 8 ball.
In the 3/4 case it is the first year for the league operator. I don't know how long the other league operator has owned the league.
 
kaznj said:
In both cases, the 6/7 and the 3/4 there two different counties and two different league operators. Both cases are 8 ball.
In the 3/4 case it is the first year for the league operator. I don't know how long the other league operator has owned the league.
Click to expand...

there could be several factors that come into play here.

their winning percentage from 1 county to the other.
type of tables they play on
level of competition they face in each county
how close the lo looks at the scoresheets
how accurate scorekeepers are in each county, marking defense etc, etc.

i play in 3 different divisions here. last time i was raised it was 3 weeks before my new level showed up in all 3 divisions.

i have noticed different levels of competition in the 3 divisions i play in.

my fri night team is in 1st place in both 8 and 9 ball. that same team would probly be middle of the pack in the sunday night division. would not stand a chance to be competitive in the tue night division.
 
If the APA wants a centralized national ranking system with a single player identifier across the board, they need to do away with those "local bylaws" and have everyone play to the exact same "nationalized" set of rules.

Steve H.
 
Celophanewrap said:
This is incorrect. Skill levels are kept at the local level by each LO. The APA National office will only have a record of your s/l if you play at a national event. Your local team championship is not considered an HLT. When you play at a national event (singles or the NTC) the s/l you leave there with is your lowest attainable skill level. In the case mentioned by the OP, playing at the NTC would bring the skill levels together for a time, but they can still vary from area to area but should never dip below what they left the national tournament as. Note the word "play" If you don't play at a national event even if you/your team qualifies you don't get locked with a lowest attainable
Click to expand...

I didn't know that. Doesn't that make it unfair when players from weaker areas play players from stronger areas in the national events? I don't understand how players can effectively compete in national events using local skill levels.

Why would the APA not simply use the same Equalizer system everywhere?
 
OneIron said:
I didn't know that. Doesn't that make it unfair when players from weaker areas play players from stronger areas in the national events? I don't understand how players can effectively compete in national events using local skill levels.

Why would the APA not simply use the same Equalizer system everywhere?
Click to expand...

Agreed. I don't know for certain but I'm of the opinion that the idea is that they all use the same system so the whether kept at a national level or a local level the S/L would be the same. I think the big difference is how often someone plays and to that end the amount of people in the APA area. For instance, take a sort of rural area that has 25 teams. The best league player in that area may have a win percentage of 95% or better, but only plays once a week and against weaker competition than him/her self, whereas you take a group of players from a large metropolitan area and they play 3 or more times a week. This urban group of players is equal in skill to the best rural player but because they play two or three times as much and against a bigger pool of players that play more often and some are better and some are not as skilled, the urban group of players may have a win percentage of 75% or 80% instead of the rural player's 95%. So in a national event you have the rural player playing at an S/L 6 or 7, and the urban player playing at an S/L 4 or 5 although they are about the "real" level of skill. So the more you play, the more accurate your S/L. I think some parts of the country have huge APA memberships and populations and the players likely play APA league matches at least a couple of time a week to my once a week, so as a S/L 5, 6 or 7, it doesn't surprise me at all to get beat up bad by an S/L 3, 4, or 5 from one of these larger urban areas. Generally, I believe that's not an issue of sandbagging, although admittedly there are people everywhere and from every league that will try to manipulate the handicap system, but I believe it's not a sandbagging issue, those folks just play league matches at least twice as much as I do so they win twice as much and lose twice as much and their S/L is inherently more accurate or (yes) lower, and frankly, in large part they're more experienced and better players because of it.
 
Last edited:
celophanewrap...Unless you are an APA LO, you should not be making statements like this. When I was an APA LO all scores for all players were sent in to the national database on a weekly basis. I'm pretty sure it's still done the same way, but what you said is not true. The national office has a record for all APA members, whether they have played in a national tournament, or not.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Celophanewrap said:
This is incorrect. Skill levels are kept at the local level by each LO. The APA National office will only have a record of your s/l if you play at a national event. Your local team championship is not considered an HLT. When you play at a national event (singles or the NTC) the s/l you leave there with is your lowest attainable skill level. In the case mentioned by the OP, playing at the NTC would bring the skill levels together for a time, but they can still vary from area to area but should never dip below what they left the national tournament as. Note the word "play" If you don't play at a national event even if you/your team qualifies you don't get locked with a lowest attainable
Click to expand...
 
FeltMaster said:
This is what would happen in Vegas if this occurred there.
In our league if you play in another county and we can't confirm your rank.....your a 7/9.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they be able to confirm the rank? Isn't this all stored in some sort of APA database? I very much doubt that each individual league uses a dedicated database.
 
Scott Lee said:
celophanewrap...Unless you are an APA LO, you should not be making statements like this. When I was an APA LO all scores for all players were sent in to the national database on a weekly basis. I'm pretty sure it's still done the same way, but what you said is not true. The national office has a record for all APA members, whether they have played in a national tournament, or not.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I figure this is probably cemented in stone now that there is the national website that each person can use to access their information.

As for the 'lowest attainable' for nationals.. if you play in Vegas as a 7, you're locked in for HLTs(or at least Vegas) as a 7. If you were to go down to a 6, I think the LO can suggest that you be a 6 in the HLT, but that's about the extent of it. You can still go down, just not for the big tournaments.

You can also be a different rating on different nights, as not all scoresheets may have been entered and calculated for the different nights. I just don't see it happening week after week around here. Somebody may get bumped up after their Tuesday night match, but Sunday's papers don't show it. Same thing can happen dropping a level, too. But, like I said, I've only seen it as a discrepancy for a few days or so, not a number of weeks in a row.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top