break cue question

[bbb]

from what i understand its control not power on the break (correct me if im wrong)
i decided to buy an ob break shaft (samsara tip) since i own several cue and didnt want to buy a break cue(right or wrong correct me)
i put it on my olivier sneaky butt
3/8-10 pin wood to wood flt face phenolic ?sleeve

the hit is very jarring to me
the old timers seemed to break well with their own cue

as long as i dont use an ivory jointed cue
what really is the benefit of the modern breakk cue???

 

[brandoncook26]

from what i understand its control not power on the break (correct me if im wrong)
i decided to buy an ob break shaft (samsara tip) since i own several cue and didnt want to buy a break cue(right or wrong correct me)
i put it on my olivier sneaky butt
3/8-10 pin wood to wood flt face phenolic ?sleeve

the hit is very jarring to me
the old timers seemed to break well with their own cue

as long as i dont use an ivory jointed cue
what really is the benefit of the modern breakk cue???

To me, the main benefit is two fold. First, you can better maintain the shape and wear on the tip of your playing cue. Second, some people prefer an alternate set up on a break cue than they have on their player, i.e. larger/smaller diameter tip, heavier/lighter, etc.

My playing cue has a leather wrap but I prefer the feel of wrapless when I'm breaking (don't ask why), and my breaking shaft is a little stiffer than my playing cue. Same diameter but a little denser. I've also been playing around with different lengths and balance points for the breaker.

 

[PGHteacher]

from what i understand its control not power on the break (correct me if im wrong)

You’re not “wrong” just as there are lots of different ___ that work for some people so is it with the break, some are power breakers some are precision; the “main focus” can be either and vary in % of importance as well. “what’s best?” is whatever pockets ball(s) (depending on the game) and gets you where you want to be. You can’t have a “blanket” answer like this for something as involved as the opening break shot.

i decided to buy an ob break shaft (samsara tip) since i own several cue and didnt want to buy a break cue(right or wrong correct me)
i put it on my olivier sneaky butt
3/8-10 pin wood to wood flt face phenolic ?sleeve

the hit is very jarring to me

Sounds like it isn’t a good “fit” for you or you need to get used to it.

the old timers seemed to break well with their own cue

They are used to it; and they are hard on the tip, the joint and stand a chance of damaging their playing cue during a match, so I advise against this in the broad sense.

what really is the benefit of the modern breakk cue???

Can be a mixture of lots of things added power, better feel, feelings toward your equipment or the break shot itself, again this is very personal and will vary from player to player.

 

[Scott Lee]

PGHteacher...I disagree here. The break is about speed and timing...not power. That's a blanket statement. Most people have poor timing, and try to put way too much body movement and force into their break...with poor or inconsistent results. The cue is plenty heavy to get the job done, when used efficiently. BTW, I've been breaking with my playing cues for 40 years (even ivory joint cues), and never had any damage from breaking (I know my experience is a little unusual).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You can’t have a “blanket” answer like this for something as involved as the opening break shot

They are used to it; and they are hard on the tip, the joint and stand a chance of damaging their playing cue during a match, so I advise against this in the broad sense.

 

[joelpope]

from what i understand its control not power on the break (correct me if im wrong)
i decided to buy an ob break shaft (samsara tip) since i own several cue and didnt want to buy a break cue(right or wrong correct me)
i put it on my olivier sneaky butt
3/8-10 pin wood to wood flt face phenolic ?sleeve

the hit is very jarring to me
the old timers seemed to break well with their own cue

as long as i dont use an ivory jointed cue
what really is the benefit of the modern breakk cue???

A couple of thoughts,

Due to the force applied during the break and the importance of hitting the head ball with accuracy I believe that a LD shaft is important for consistent breaking success. I don't play with a LD shaft, only break with one.

Accuracy and control is more important than break speed. Hit the cue all dead center and hit the head ball dead center if you want maximum control and energy transfer

A high quality, hard leather tip is my preference. Specifically Samsara's break tip.

Just some thoughts and opinions

 

[FranCrimi]

from what i understand its control not power on the break (correct me if im wrong)
i decided to buy an ob break shaft (samsara tip) since i own several cue and didnt want to buy a break cue(right or wrong correct me)
i put it on my olivier sneaky butt
3/8-10 pin wood to wood flt face phenolic ?sleeve

the hit is very jarring to me
the old timers seemed to break well with their own cue

as long as i dont use an ivory jointed cue
what really is the benefit of the modern breakk cue???

bbb, I want to address your first line. You can have control and power at the same time. But it takes PRACTICE. If you practice your break, you can accomplish it. If not, then you'll just have to settle for control.

If you're interested in accomplishing both control and power, then a break cue is for you. The new break cues do have a harsh sound, but for those interested in power, I've read in the forums here that you can achieve more power with one.

Also... there are some racks where you don't have to break hard. But not all. I think it's more important to have all the skills than just some.

Fran

 

[PGHteacher]

PGHteacher...I disagree here. The break is about speed and timing...not power. That's a blanket statement. Most people have poor timing, and try to put way too much body movement and force into their break...with poor or inconsistent results. The cue is plenty heavy to get the job done, when used efficiently. BTW, I've been breaking with my playing cues for 40 years (even ivory joint cues), and never had any damage from breaking (I know my experience is a little unusual).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee we are not in disagreement other than the “suggestion” that one not break with their playing cue. By your statements I would say that you are (probably) a precision breaker, and as I said this varies from player to player even as far as what that percentage of precision/power that is.

 

[Snapshot9]

Break cues

I have played for 50 years, and I rate things in Pool by efficiency rates and percentages. FWIW, I rate that a good Break cue will improve your Break by about 15%. Now, if that 15% improvement means that you make a ball where you didn't before, and gives you pretty good position, then the Break cue is entirely worth it. It is nice to make 3 or 4 balls on the break, but really all you need is 1 ball to go in, and halfway decent shape on the next ball to be shot. So, the bottom line is consistency on the break.

Redoing your break and form can also improve your break. Hitting the first ball solid is surely a plus, I have seen guys smack the head ball with no english or just low, balls scattering all over the place, and not one of them drops in. Every good player knows that if they hit the head ball a lttle on the right or left with a certain english, that they have a greater chance on making a ball on the break. In other words, some english will have a tendency to throw balls towards pockets, and some will throw balls out of the pockets, depending on where the cue ball is when you hit it, where on the head ball you hit it, and the english you use. A good example is the 10 ball break. SVB had the jump on most players in 10 ball breaking, but other pros have now caught up. I notice about 3 different places where they put the cue ball, and about the same english when they break.

Another example might be the 9 ball break to make a wing ball on the break. And yet another would be the soft break to make the 1 in the side that Alcano used to win a world championship.

Really, I think the wear and tear a Break cue saves on your playing cue makes a Break cue worth it. And most break shafts are different from playing cue shafts. My J&J break shaft is much more stiffer (13.25 mm), and has no give whatsoever when I break with it.

 

[JMW]

Every good player knows that if they hit the head ball a lttle on the right or left with a certain english, that they have a greater chance on making a ball on the break.

Is this true? I would like to know the opinion of the instructors on this statement.

Thanks!

 

[TomHay]

Is this true? I would like to know the opinion of the instructors on this statement.

Thanks!

I don't see where a certified instructor is needed when a simple example will do. Mosconi used to do the shot in exhibitions and you will find it in trick shot books. With a full rack you hit the front ball about 1/3 with right english and the front ball goes in the side pocket. In 9 ball you will see the pros play the exact same shot attempting to make the one in the side or have it bank cross corner. You will make note they may change which side they are breaking on depending on where the 2 ball is racked for position.

 

[Scott Lee]

JMW...I certainly don't believe it's true, even to a small degree. Sidespin/english can only affect a maximum of two frozen balls...and the effect is quite minimal. The break is affected more by speed and energy transfer (tip to CB...CB to rack) than anything else. It is a myth that english makes it more likely to pocket a ball on the break. Remember, myths are believed by many people as gospel...even though they aren't true. In pool school we identify the myths, and help people learn how to apply the knowledge correctly.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Is this true? I would like to know the opinion of the instructors on this statement.

Thanks!

 

[Scott Lee]

Tom... Making the 1 in the side doesn't require english...just hitting the 1-ball in the correct place at the right speed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I don't see where a certified instructor is needed when a simple example will do. Mosconi used to do the shot in exhibitions and you will find it in trick shot books. With a full rack you hit the front ball about 1/3 with right english and the front ball goes in the side pocket. In 9 ball you will see the pros play the exact same shot attempting to make the one in the side or have it bank cross corner. You will make note they may change which side they are breaking on depending on where the 2 ball is racked for position.

 

[AtLarge]

... Due to the force applied during the break and the importance of hitting the head ball with accuracy I believe that a LD shaft is important for consistent breaking success. ...

I have a bit of a different view, Joel. I think a low-squirt shaft can be a disadvantage on the break in certain circumstances.

On a normal break shot, the player often tries to hit on the vertical axis of the cue ball rather than trying to apply side english. Because of the force of the stroke, however, he often does hit left or right of center. In essence, the player is unintentionally applying back-hand english to the cue ball.

In such cases, it is nice to have a break shaft that has a pivot point at the spot where the bridge hand is placed. Then, the unintentional application of back-hand english during the break shot would result in squirt compensation that still sends the cue ball in the direction originally intended.

A low-squirt shaft has a pivot point that is farther from the tip than the pivot point would be on a regular-squirt maple shaft. So someone who employs a fairly short bridge length on break shots would have his bridge hand at a point that is closer to the tip than the pivot point of the shaft. The result is that a break shot that is lined up on the center axis of the cue ball but is hit off-center on the cue ball will not have a normal back-hand-english type of squirt compensation. That is, it will not go where the breaker was intending, but, instead, will essentially be "over-compensated" for squirt and will go to the left of the target if the cue ball is hit left of center or to the right of the target if the cue ball is hit right of center.

On the other hand, someone who uses quite a long bridge length on break shots might find that a low-squirt shaft does provide good squirt compensation for the unintentional application of back-hand english (because he would be bridging approximately at the shaft's pivot point).

Also, I think a low-squirt shaft is an advantage on the break for players who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not line up on the center axis of the cue ball but do stroke straight back and through.

 

[ShaunTanYK]

Tom... Making the 1 in the side doesn't require english...just hitting the 1-ball in the correct place at the right speed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have a question...

How do we break ideally then? Where should we hit on the one ball and how much force? A diagram would be most helpful..

Thanks,
Shaun

 

[FranCrimi]

I have a bit of a different view, Joel. I think a low-squirt shaft can be a disadvantage on the break in certain circumstances.

On a normal break shot, the player often tries to hit on the vertical axis of the cue ball rather than trying to apply side english. Because of the force of the stroke, however, he often does hit left or right of center. In essence, the player is unintentionally applying back-hand english to the cue ball.

In such cases, it is nice to have a break shaft that has a pivot point at the spot where the bridge hand is placed. Then, the unintentional application of back-hand english during the break shot would result in squirt compensation that still sends the cue ball in the direction originally intended.

A low-squirt shaft has a pivot point that is farther from the tip than the pivot point would be on a regular-squirt maple shaft. So someone who employs a fairly short bridge length on break shots would have his bridge hand at a point that is closer to the tip than the pivot point of the shaft. The result is that a break shot that is lined up on the center axis of the cue ball but is hit off-center on the cue ball will not have a normal back-hand-english type of squirt compensation. That is, it will not go where the breaker was intending, but, instead, will essentially be "over-compensated" for squirt and will go to the left of the target if the cue ball is hit left of center or to the right of the target if the cue ball is hit right of center.

On the other hand, someone who uses quite a long bridge length on break shots might find that a low-squirt shaft does provide good squirt compensation for the unintentional application of back-hand english (because he would be bridging approximately at the shaft's pivot point).

Also, I think a low-squirt shaft is an advantage on the break for players who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not line up on the center axis of the cue ball but do stroke straight back and through.

I was under the impression that low squirt shafts are more delicate, for example: the laminated ones and those constructed with a hole drilled in the top. Players are breaking with them now with no consequences?

 

[AtLarge]

I was under the impression that low squirt shafts are more delicate, for example: the laminated ones and those constructed with a hole drilled in the top. Players are breaking with them now with no consequences?

I'm not aware of any "fragility" problems with the leading low-squirt break shafts. But I'm not well informed on that topic.

 

[Scott Lee]

ShaunTanYK...Difficult to answer, as you have to find your own "perfect" place on the 1 ball, and how much speed you need. Some do it breaking just off the rail, and others can do it breaking from the side of the break box. For me, making the 1 ball in the side is not that difficult. I break from a couple inches off the long rail, on the head string. I aim almost dead straight at the 1 ball from this perspective, and try to size up what speed is necessary (on that particular table) to get the 1 ball moving towards the side pocket. Then I make small adjustments until I find the variables that get the job done.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have a question...

How do we break ideally then? Where should we hit on the one ball and how much force? A diagram would be most helpful..

Thanks,
Shaun

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not aware of any "fragility" problems with the leading low-squirt break shafts. But I'm not well informed on that topic.

It might be a good idea to research which players break with a low-squirt shaft before debating their break qualities. I don't know of anyone who breaks hard who breaks with one. I think they are too fragile for breaking.

Anyone out there using one for breaking?

 

[The Renfro]

I was under the impression that low squirt shafts are more delicate, for example: the laminated ones and those constructed with a hole drilled in the top. Players are breaking with them now with no consequences?

Fran actually you are correct in that they are indeed more delicate but not from an impact standpoint... They are more delicate to sheering forces since they are hollow but the fact that the hole is round helps fight against sheering to some degree....

If you milled a square into the end of the shaft to reduce weight you would see shafts buckling left and right under power shots where the player bends the cue.......

The original predator shafts had a long ferrule... I used to splinter them breaking with them because the leverage from the long ferrule was enough to sheer the shaft where the ferrule tenon met the shaft ledge... They swapped to a short ferrule and I couldn't break them anymore... I know they swapped 3 of mine out in about 6 months while they were reworking the ferrule to the shorties.....

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran actually you are correct in that they are indeed more delicate but not from an impact standpoint... They are more delicate to sheering forces since they are hollow but the fact that the hole is round helps fight against sheering to some degree....

If you milled a square into the end of the shaft to reduce weight you would see shafts buckling left and right under power shots where the player bends the cue.......

The original predator shafts had a long ferrule... I used to splinter them breaking with them because the leverage from the long ferrule was enough to sheer the shaft where the ferrule tenon met the shaft ledge... They swapped to a short ferrule and I couldn't break them anymore... I know they swapped 3 of mine out in about 6 months while they were reworking the ferrule to the shorties.....

OK, thanks. I figured the ferrule was shortened for a reason. Are you breaking with one now? Do you know of other players who are as well?