I agree & well & simply said.
Break Speed DISCUSSION
- Thread starter JoeyA
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I agree & well & simply said.
It's the less tension faster swing speed. IMHO
I agree. Biomechanically correct. Simular to a powerful golf or baseball swing. The problem for some is to do it all in the correct sequence.
I have a friend that is in his 50's and just started playing competitively about 5 yrs ago (Apa). He was a skill level 3 then 4 and now a 5. This guy rarely misses a ball on the break...he breaks with power and control. And its the goofiest thing you've ever seen. He rocks back and forth but he stays compact and rises just a little in follow thru. But he uses the break rak religiously. So you're never too old to learn.
Btw, he buys every book, dvd and training aid you can imagine. He practices his kicks and banks and is very proficient. If he had put the same dedication into the stun shot, he would have learned where to aim center ball and then know where the cue ball path was going. And it would be difficult to imagine how good he would play. But he's a sucker for the impressive shots.
"Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." ---Casey Kasem
Btw, he buys every book, dvd and training aid you can imagine. He practices his kicks and banks and is very proficient. If he had put the same dedication into the stun shot, he would have learned where to aim center ball and then know where the cue ball path was going. And it would be difficult to imagine how good he would play. But he's a sucker for the impressive shots.
"Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." ---Casey Kasem
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand things it's energy of the CB that breaks up the rack, not the force of your stroke. The correct formula is E=1/2 mv^2. Energy varies as the square of the velocity. Therefore, a CB speed of 15 MPH delivers less than 1/2 the energy to the rack that a CB speed of 22 MPH delivers.
F=ma seems meaningless in determining breaking energy because it fails to account for the the duration of the applied force (your stroke), so the final velocity remains unknown. A short stroke has less distance to accelerate the cue, so greater force is needed to achieve the same speed as a longer stroke (one that has more time to accelerate the cue).
Also, that force must be constant throughout the stroke. An object can only be accelerated smoothly while a steady force is being applied to it.
Think about pushing a car from a standstill. At the beginning, all of your available force is pushing on the car, so acceleration is at a maximum, even though the car seems to be barely moving. As time goes on, the car goes faster and faster, but the faster it goes, the less force you are able to apply.
Once the car's speed hits your maximum running speed, you can no longer apply an accelerating force to it. Any force you can apply at that point will be very light, just enough to maintain its velocity (overcoming rolling frictional forces, air resistance, etc).
The same thing is happening throughout the duration of your stroke (only it's much harder to detect because the time is so short), but the breaker with the steadiest force throughout the stroke will achieve the best cue acceleration and highest final velocity. It's a timing thing.
Since this is a collision, transfer of momentum (P) must be considered here as well. P=mv. Momentum is always conserved as momentum (unlike kinetic energy, which can be transformed into other forms of energy such as heat, light, etc). Heavier cues stroked at the same velocity transfer greater momentum to the CB. If a 24 oz. cue was able to transfer every bit of its momentum to the CB, a 6 MPH tip speed would results in a 24 MPH CB speed, while an 18 oz cue would have to travel at 8 MPH to achieve the same CB velocity. Of course, this is not exactly what is seen in real life because:
1. The COR of the cue is < 1
2. Much of the momentum of the cue is carried forward of the contact point in the form of follow through. The cue would have to stop dead in its tracks for all of the momentum of the cue to be transferred to the CB, and this is not what happens, unless you were to use a 6 oz solid phenolic cue (same mass and material as the CB).
Still, a heavier cue stroked at the same velocity as a lighter cue will transfer more momentum to the CB. Since the CB is always 6 oz, and since momentum is always conserved, the CB must leave the cue tip at a higher velocity than the cue is moving forward.
But, instead of an 18 oz cue, imagine a 1 oz phenolic needle fired at 24 MPH. You will not achieve a 24 MPH break with this setup. The needle will rebound backwards violently, carrying most of its momentum back the way it came from.
Similarly, try using a 16 pound cue to get the CB up to 24 MPH. Almost all of the considerable momentum of that slow moving cue would continue forward long after the CB contact time had elapsed, transferring very little to the CB.
Cue weight is definitely a factor at a purely mechanical level, but the key is in whether or not the player can deliver the heavier cue at the same velocity as the lighter cue. Cue design may enter into this as well, like in those 24 oz Cannon cues that are claiming to achieve greater CB speed through an increase in momentum. Anybody try one of those?
Now, Dr. Dave will come on here and tell me I'm full of it.
F=ma seems meaningless in determining breaking energy because it fails to account for the the duration of the applied force (your stroke), so the final velocity remains unknown. A short stroke has less distance to accelerate the cue, so greater force is needed to achieve the same speed as a longer stroke (one that has more time to accelerate the cue).
Also, that force must be constant throughout the stroke. An object can only be accelerated smoothly while a steady force is being applied to it.
Think about pushing a car from a standstill. At the beginning, all of your available force is pushing on the car, so acceleration is at a maximum, even though the car seems to be barely moving. As time goes on, the car goes faster and faster, but the faster it goes, the less force you are able to apply.
Once the car's speed hits your maximum running speed, you can no longer apply an accelerating force to it. Any force you can apply at that point will be very light, just enough to maintain its velocity (overcoming rolling frictional forces, air resistance, etc).
The same thing is happening throughout the duration of your stroke (only it's much harder to detect because the time is so short), but the breaker with the steadiest force throughout the stroke will achieve the best cue acceleration and highest final velocity. It's a timing thing.
Since this is a collision, transfer of momentum (P) must be considered here as well. P=mv. Momentum is always conserved as momentum (unlike kinetic energy, which can be transformed into other forms of energy such as heat, light, etc). Heavier cues stroked at the same velocity transfer greater momentum to the CB. If a 24 oz. cue was able to transfer every bit of its momentum to the CB, a 6 MPH tip speed would results in a 24 MPH CB speed, while an 18 oz cue would have to travel at 8 MPH to achieve the same CB velocity. Of course, this is not exactly what is seen in real life because:
1. The COR of the cue is < 1
2. Much of the momentum of the cue is carried forward of the contact point in the form of follow through. The cue would have to stop dead in its tracks for all of the momentum of the cue to be transferred to the CB, and this is not what happens, unless you were to use a 6 oz solid phenolic cue (same mass and material as the CB).
Still, a heavier cue stroked at the same velocity as a lighter cue will transfer more momentum to the CB. Since the CB is always 6 oz, and since momentum is always conserved, the CB must leave the cue tip at a higher velocity than the cue is moving forward.
But, instead of an 18 oz cue, imagine a 1 oz phenolic needle fired at 24 MPH. You will not achieve a 24 MPH break with this setup. The needle will rebound backwards violently, carrying most of its momentum back the way it came from.
Similarly, try using a 16 pound cue to get the CB up to 24 MPH. Almost all of the considerable momentum of that slow moving cue would continue forward long after the CB contact time had elapsed, transferring very little to the CB.
Cue weight is definitely a factor at a purely mechanical level, but the key is in whether or not the player can deliver the heavier cue at the same velocity as the lighter cue. Cue design may enter into this as well, like in those 24 oz Cannon cues that are claiming to achieve greater CB speed through an increase in momentum. Anybody try one of those?
Now, Dr. Dave will come on here and tell me I'm full of it.
What weight cue stick can each different bodied person deliver to the cue ball in his or her own most forceful manner to cause the cue ball to put the most force on the rack? I think that is the question. I prefaced my initial reply with that given he was applying the appropriate biomechanics, that he might try a different weight cue. If lighter is not better for him then heavier may be or... the one he has may be the best & that's it. He may have to accept it or play differently. Sometimes some techniques don't work or don't work as well with the 'wrong' equipment. It's a puzzle & we have to find all of the right pieces. I hope we can all break down our cues on this one.
I'm working on a Happy Gilmore break technique, where I take about a 6-step run at the cue ball and whip the cue through.
Haven't been able to hit the cue ball yet, but I'm sure that when I do, I'll be breaking all kinds of speed records.
Meanwhile, my thighs are really sore from running into the end rail.
Haven't been able to hit the cue ball yet, but I'm sure that when I do, I'll be breaking all kinds of speed records.
Meanwhile, my thighs are really sore from running into the end rail.
I think you may be right. It will be interesting to chronicle the effort to improve my break speed. I played this evening and I tried to use some of my "improve technique" and had the cue ball smacking the rack pretty hard with mixed results and mixed control. Right now, I'm not concerned with control as much as I am with increasing my speed.
I'm curious if others have had a particular average break speed and if they changed their speed by a few mph by changing their technique or other things.
My advice is to play the break like its a very tough shot. No body movement or weight shifting needed. This is the easiest way to be more accurate and accuracy translates into more energy going into the rack. I think you may be surprised at how much power you can generate with just arm movement while the rest of your body is a statue.
From my experience in working a lot on my break I can tell you that speed doesn't make the wing ball or one ball go in. I've topped out my break over 30mph and found that 20mph works better even though the CB control was very similar. This of course goes for a 9 ball break. In 10 ball more power is needed to get good results.
A good way to think of the break is that you only need to make one....not all of em.
From my experience in working a lot on my break I can tell you that speed doesn't make the wing ball or one ball go in. I've topped out my break over 30mph and found that 20mph works better even though the CB control was very similar. This of course goes for a 9 ball break. In 10 ball more power is needed to get good results.
A good way to think of the break is that you only need to make one....not all of em.
The smallest thing in technique to change with the biggest net result is bridge length. I tried this out a few months ago and went from an average 22 to 27 and topped out hitting three in a row in the 30.3+ range before going back to my average which I was happier with the spread.
Joey,
One aspect of the break not mentioned so far (I might of missed it) is the amount that the cue ball jumps during the break shot.
I've noticed in my own practice with the break speed app that when the cue ball barely jumped at all I produced higher speeds. It seems to lose velocity the more the rock got up in the air. My top speeds were with a nearly flat ball. Plus it seemed that the balls scattered more as more energy was transferred into the rack.
I clocked faster times with less effort and a very level stroke. When trying too hard I tended to lose speed. It helped to go for smooth instead of power.
Hope this adds something to your quest for a faster break.
Dud
One aspect of the break not mentioned so far (I might of missed it) is the amount that the cue ball jumps during the break shot.
I've noticed in my own practice with the break speed app that when the cue ball barely jumped at all I produced higher speeds. It seems to lose velocity the more the rock got up in the air. My top speeds were with a nearly flat ball. Plus it seemed that the balls scattered more as more energy was transferred into the rack.
I clocked faster times with less effort and a very level stroke. When trying too hard I tended to lose speed. It helped to go for smooth instead of power.
Hope this adds something to your quest for a faster break.
Dud
Joey, I've done a lot of thinking about this over the years. I come from
golf where I was a long ball hitter...I really tried to emulate Hogan, who
said that you have to hit the ball from the toe-nails.
It's the same way you deliver a knock-out punch...it comes from the floor.
A punch using the upper body won't hurt a fighter enough.
So in breaking, try 'picking' the cue 'up' instead of putting it 'down'....
...feel the power coming from your feet.
I feel Billy Johnson used this technique.
And the way John Daley hits a golf ball is also interesting..his swing speed
was slower than I would have thought when he was the longest driver..
..but he kept the club-head on the ball longer than most golfers....
..I think Billy kept his tip on the ball a nano-second longer than most.
That's great! You made ME laugh. Just notice your moniker. Be careful when you're running into the rail that you don't kill your 'stick'.
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My max is only in the low-mid 20's, so I'm not exactly an expert, but here are a few things that help me:
1 looking a the cue ball last.
2 focusing on just getting timing correct rather than power. If the timing is good, power will follow. If you just try to smash the rack, odds are your timing will be poor and you wont get a very high speed.
3 going slightly side arm to get a more level backstroke.
1 looking a the cue ball last.
2 focusing on just getting timing correct rather than power. If the timing is good, power will follow. If you just try to smash the rack, odds are your timing will be poor and you wont get a very high speed.
3 going slightly side arm to get a more level backstroke.
i play a lot of slowpitch at high level and im on a few teams. Here is a drill that increases bat speed.
Equipment Needed for the Exercise
1 Light Bat (softball bat without the plug in it- 20 oz.)
1 Regular Weighted Bat (your game bat)
1 Heavey Bat (something heavier than normal by at least 5 oz.)
Increase Your Bat Speed Routine
1st week Monday and Wedsneday
2nd week Tuesday and Thursday
3rd week Monday and Thursday
4th week Tuesday and Friday
5th week Monday and Wednesday
6th week Tuesday and Friday 7th week Monday and Thursday
8th week Tuesday and Friday
9th week Monday and Wednesday
10th week Tuesday and Thursday
11th week Monday and Thursday
12th week Tuesday and Friday
You need to do this routine for at least 9 weeks to get the full effect.
If done for the maximum of 12 it can only help you that much more.
Bat Speed Routine
Sets Bat Weight Reps
1st set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
2nd set Light Bat 10 - 12
3rd set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
4th set Light Bat 10 - 12
5th set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
6th set Your Own Bat 10 - 12
Equipment Needed for the Exercise
1 Light Bat (softball bat without the plug in it- 20 oz.)
1 Regular Weighted Bat (your game bat)
1 Heavey Bat (something heavier than normal by at least 5 oz.)
Increase Your Bat Speed Routine
1st week Monday and Wedsneday
2nd week Tuesday and Thursday
3rd week Monday and Thursday
4th week Tuesday and Friday
5th week Monday and Wednesday
6th week Tuesday and Friday 7th week Monday and Thursday
8th week Tuesday and Friday
9th week Monday and Wednesday
10th week Tuesday and Thursday
11th week Monday and Thursday
12th week Tuesday and Friday
You need to do this routine for at least 9 weeks to get the full effect.
If done for the maximum of 12 it can only help you that much more.
Bat Speed Routine
Sets Bat Weight Reps
1st set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
2nd set Light Bat 10 - 12
3rd set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
4th set Light Bat 10 - 12
5th set Heavy Bat 10 - 12
6th set Your Own Bat 10 - 12
I like it
I like this !! Of course this guys name is Matt ,he is from NC ,and he is exactly right !!! :grin: On the snap Joey A. on the snap .As we used to say in Karate class Snap it Out !! Eeeeeeee......yaaaaaah !!:yikes:
I'm gonna keep a close eye on this thread for ideas, but I feel your pain joey. Your break sounds a lot like mine... 17.5 or so average, when I'm trying hard I barely hit twenty. In fact only a few times in my life have I gone over. So jealous of those who can do it without even trying. I've tried playing strictly to squat whitey, but at any speed where I have 100% control... if a ball doesn't fly directly into the hole, it's never going, because none of the balls have enough momentum to go more than a rail or two.
My current focus is on playing to make a specific ball, and that also seems very erratic. Even with the right equipment and a tight rack.
I keep hoping there's some trick that doesn't involve ridiculous hip thrusts to add 3mph or so to my break.
My current focus is on playing to make a specific ball, and that also seems very erratic. Even with the right equipment and a tight rack.
I keep hoping there's some trick that doesn't involve ridiculous hip thrusts to add 3mph or so to my break.
I'll be a little more specific with my description and see if we aren't in agreement here...
When I say "tightening everything in sequence", what I mean is really a process of tightening and releasing muscle groups starting away from the grip and getting progressively closer throughout the stroke so you finish with a wrist snap, creating a whip-like motion in your arm. Starting with your feet gets your shoulder moving forwards for a little extra punch, but I think the key is really in having the shoulder motion lead the elbow motion which leads the wrist motion. Tensing your muscles and not letting that joint continue moving forwards freely afterwards would surely have a negative impact on the break speed.
In any case, I'd apply the same disclaimer as everyone else offering advice: a faster break won't necessarily be more effective. However, since I haven't seen the equivalent of a 9-ball cut-break for 10-ball or 8-ball (without tilting the rack), the general consensus right now seems to be that a power break with some cue ball control is the best bet for those games. For 9-ball, I'd still recommend a more controlled cut break, and I'm not ballsy enough to open break a 1 pocket, snooker or 14.1 rack.
What exactly do you mean by a cut break. I proabably know it by another name and maybe then I might be able to help.