Get a Grip

[Patrick Johnson]

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots - i.e., that doesn't change to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke or to deliver more power on hard-hit shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is trusting it will do the job under all circumstances.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. Maybe my grip was having more of an effect than I realized - but since I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, I can't be sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

 

[whitewolf]

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is learning to trust that I don't need to change the grip to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke, even for hard-hit shots.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. I guess my grip was having more of an effect than I realized. I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, so can't tell for sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

Any kind of grippng, IMHO, creates tension in the arm and it is HARDER to get that excellent position you get with a gliding stroke. It's like tossing pennies - if you squeeze the penny you can't get the distance right versus letting the arm glide back and forth.

BTW, I have already tried this method and on slow rolling shots that requires a nice touch you will feel like an 800 pound gorilla with no touch/feel.

One needs to find the gliding stroke, the key to playing good pool.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have already tried this method and on slow rolling shots that requires a nice touch you will feel like an 800 pound gorilla with no touch/feel.

That's too bad for you. Works great for me - actually helps promote a smooth stroke and improves my touch/feel on shots of all speeds.

pj
chgo

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Tea cup grip!

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is learning to trust that I don't need to change the grip to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke, even for hard-hit shots.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. I guess my grip was having more of an effect than I realized. I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, so can't tell for sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

I played an exhibition match against Mike Sigel many years ago and he commented that I had a tea cup grip. I think it's similar to the grip you describe. Daylight between the cue and my palm. Makes the wrist sort of wiggly, but I believe this is where much action is achieved. I know I tighten my grip but also know I never go into a full grip as in swinging a hammer. To me the full grip freezes the wrist in place. I remember asking Mr. Sigel, oh is that bad and he said no, lots of good players use it! Good luck!

 

[FranCrimi]

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots - i.e., that doesn't change to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke or to deliver more power on hard-hit shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is trusting it will do the job under all circumstances.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. Maybe my grip was having more of an effect than I realized - but since I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, I can't be sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

No offense meant, Patrick, but I think that's an awful grip and you couldn't pay me to use it.

 

[bbb]

No offense meant, Patrick, but I think that's an awful grip and you couldn't pay me to use it.

would you describe your "ideal" grip please??

 

[sfleinen]

No offense meant, Patrick, but I think that's an awful grip and you couldn't pay me to use it.

Fran:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding Pat's description of this grip. It's not like a "tea cup" grip where you're holding the cue between the tip of your thumb and the tip (or the second pad) of the index finger.

Rather, it's a "pinch" grip where the contact points are the first joint (the bulging bone) of the thumb, and the third joint (bulging bone) of the index finger. You squeeze or pinch the cue between those two bony surfaces, and it feels like a "bolt" is going sideways through the diameter of the cue, like a hinge.

I know this grip that Pat is talking about, and played with it for many years. I don't anymore, however. The problem -- for me -- with this grip, was that the unbalanced forces in my hand were causing a very gentle skew or "yaw" that I could not feel, see, or even detect, because of the very easy and unrestricted pivot/hinge action of the delivery. But they showed up in film! And when I saw it, I cringed -- for I had a gentle sideways swoop in my cue delivery -- undetectable to me. What was happening, was that there was more "mass" of my hand on one side of the cue (the third joint of my index finger) than the other side (the thumb side). The third joint of my index finger had the whole hand's mass behind it, which overpowered my thumb, and cause the cue butt to gently swoop inwards towards my body, thus gently swinging the cue tip outwards.

I went back to a cradle grip, but a modified cradle grip. "Modified" meaning that instead of letting the cue just rest upon the fleshy pads of my fingers, I instead "pinch" the cue in the second joint of my index finger ("second" from the tip), and this joint is position exactly on the bottom-most surface of the cue. Essentially a righted "V" that the tip or apex of, points to the floor.

Since there is no sideways pressure on the cue, and the cue is rather held from underneath (at a very focused point), my cue delivery is no longer vulnerable to unbalanced forces or masses on the sides of the cue. It's now laser straight -- even on film. A LaserStroke verifies this as well, all the way through the stroke.

-Sean

 

[Patrick Johnson]

No offense meant, Patrick, but I think that's an awful grip and you couldn't pay me to use it.

You might misunderstand my partial description. The "pincer" spots aren't the only parts of my hand that touch the cue - they're just where pressure is applied to create momentum. My grip cradles the cue (mostly with the index finger) for general support.

The general principle of applying pressure to the sides rather than all around the grip isn't new. And don't worry, I won't make you use it.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

You might misunderstand my partial description. The "pincer" spots aren't the only parts of my hand that touch the cue - they're just where pressure is applied to create momentum. My grip cradles the cue (mostly with the index finger) for general support.

The general principle of applying pressure to the sides rather than all around the grip isn't new. And don't worry, I won't make you use it.

pj
chgo

patrick are you "pincing" between just below the 1st knuckle(closest to the palm) of the thumb and index finger??
check out this video start around 5:50 but alittle after 6:00 minutes he talks about the V grip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u52gKAehqo
is this what you are referring to??

 

[Patrick Johnson]

sean:
...it's a "pinch" grip where the contact points are the first joint (the bulging bone) of the thumb, and the third joint (bulging bone) of the index finger.

Yes, except farther up on my index finger (so the rest can wrap under for loose support).

...it feels like a "bolt" is going sideways through the diameter of the cue, like a hinge.

Exactly. This is the hinging motion I'm talking about and the key to the grip's effectiveness for me. Fortunately I don't have the "unequal pressure" problem you experienced.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

for what its worth
when i was in college "joe" worked for the school but played pool 9 ball
he was often in the student center playing pool
he had a thumb but his fingers were gone at where the fingers meet the palm
he would hold the cue between his thumb and the side of the knub of his hand/palm
obviously he couldnt GRIP the cue
had to "pinch" it between his thumb and nubbin
he could really make the cue ball dance
maybe he used excessive spin for every shot
BUT HE COULD SPIN THE ROCK

 

[sfleinen]

Yes, except farther up on my index finger (so the rest can wrap under for loose support).

Actually, that was what I was trying to describe, but different people have different numbering systems for the joints in their fingers. When I say "third joint," the joint of the index finger I'm talking about, is the knuckle of the fist that the index finger joins to, but obviously the contact point is on the inside of that knuckle. Any "further up" on the index finger, and you'd be *in* the palm of the hand.

Exactly. This is the hinging motion I'm talking about and the key to the grip's effectiveness for me. Fortunately I don't have the "unequal pressure" problem you experienced.

pj
chgo

I thought so, too, for the longest time that I used this grip. I reveled in the free and easy delivery that the pivot/hinge action gave me. I'd even experienced a sort of "renaissance" in my game, and thought "yep, this is IT!" But I'd topped out, and one day when my game was not quite up to par, I had a friend video tape me. And I didn't like what I saw.

I do hope this doesn't happen to you, and you continue to use this grip to its full effectiveness. It definitely is a very stable grip -- through all ranges of motion and power (no "brace for impact" as you succinctly describe).

Good luck with it, and keeping hitting 'em true,
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Grip

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots - i.e., that doesn't change to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke or to deliver more power on hard-hit shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is trusting it will do the job under all circumstances.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. Maybe my grip was having more of an effect than I realized - but since I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, I can't be sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

That's the grip I've been using from day one(1) more than 45 yr's ago. My father taught it to me with some other basic fundamentals. The best pool advice I ever received was also given to me by my father, ' there's always a shot... you just have to find it'. When ever there is not an obvious shot, I remember that and keep looking, & sure enough, he was right. There IS always a shot. But I digress, sorry.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

patrick are you "pincing" between just below the 1st knuckle(closest to the palm) of the thumb and index finger??

Between the upper half of my index finger and the middle joint of my thumb. That's where it works out for my hand position (see below).

check out this video start around 5:50 but alittle after 6:00 minutes he talks about the V grip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u52gKAehqo
is this what you are referring to??

In that video Greyghost describes tilting the grip hand slightly away from the body ("pronating" it: the opposite of tucking it under) to align the wrist hinge with the forearm's pendulum motion - the "V" in his grip just indicates that position for him. I don't disagree with his reasoning (I've seen other good shooters with grips like that), but I don't "pronate" my wrist like that - the "V" in my grip comes from having my hand in the right position for the "pincer" part of the grip to hinge properly and for the index finger to cradle comfortably underneath.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When I say "third joint," the joint of the index finger I'm talking about, is the knuckle of the fist that the index finger joins to, but obviously the contact point is on the inside of that knuckle. Any "further up" on the index finger, and you'd be *in* the palm of the hand.

It's actually midway between that knuckle and the next one (in the middle of the upper "section" of the finger).

I'd topped out

This happens to me eventually after every improvement, reminding me that there's no destination on the journey and it's time to shovel some more coal.

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots - i.e., that doesn't change to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke or to deliver more power on hard-hit shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is trusting it will do the job under all circumstances.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. Maybe my grip was having more of an effect than I realized - but since I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, I can't be sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

Kinda funny -- I've been working on pretty much the same thing as of late.
Great minds and all that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Kinda funny -- I've been working on pretty much the same thing as of late.

Doing some good, I hope. It's been berry good to Chico.

Great minds and all that.

And the good sense to totally waste them on pool.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

Between the upper half of my index finger and the middle joint of my thumb. That's where it works out for my hand position (see below).


In that video Greyghost describes tilting the grip hand slightly away from the body ("pronating" it: the opposite of tucking it under) to align the wrist hinge with the forearm's pendulum motion - the "V" in his grip just indicates that position for him. I don't disagree with his reasoning (I've seen other good shooters with grips like that), but I don't "pronate" my wrist like that - the "V" in my grip comes from having my hand in the right position for the "pincer" part of the grip to hinge properly and for the index finger to cradle comfortably underneath.
pj
chgo

i thought that was what greyghost was trying to say
regardless im with you on this one:thumbup:

 

[KCRack'em]

Great minds and all that.

Great minds make for a great zombie lunch.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

I finally got around to paying attention to one of the most overlooked parts of my (and I assume everybody's) game: the grip. Specifically, I want to have a grip that stays true all the way through the shot, is the same in my shot stroke as in my practice strokes, and the same for soft and hard shots - i.e., that doesn't change to "brace for impact" on my shot stroke or to deliver more power on hard-hit shots.

The grip I'm working on is a thumb-and-index-finger pincer that grips the cue at two points on opposite sides, allowing a hinge-like pivot as the angle between cue and hand changes throughout the pendulum swing. The trick is trusting it will do the job under all circumstances.

The two-finger pincer grip isn't my idea; it's been around forever. And I've used it forever - I'm just getting around to trying to perfect it now. I haven't looked into Brett's V-Grip technique, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in general concept.

Maybe it's just the right time for me and this particular lesson, but it's helping me more than I expected. Maybe my grip was having more of an effect than I realized - but since I'm paying more attention to my stroke and cue delivery in general, I can't be sure how much of the improvement is really grip related.

pj
chgo

pj,
Long time...
I, also, have been working on re-building my stroke.

Since last Feb. I have been using a much lighter grip (without pinching). I rest the cue butt on my index and middle finger and then apply my thumb to the side to keep the cue from rolling off my fingers. This is a gravity only resting on my fingers. The palm of my hand does not touch the cue.

I found that I have to move the tip of the cue closer to center to get the same action on the cue ball I did with my old grip. I held my cue with a distinct grip with pressure that I always thought was too much.

Too tight of a grip, for me, was, IMO, making me miss-hit the cue ball with a fractional left or right contact causing me to miss or get unwanted results.

I do believe that the lighter grip is improving my ability to hit the cue ball into that small area that makes the pockets look bigger. Also a slight pause on the final stroke and looking at the OB last.