Cheating in the 8 ball league...

jalapus logan

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
...is still rampant, gotta love it! I play on our city's Thursday night league 8 ball league with a team comprised mostly of non pool players. I was in the position to play the last game in each round last night and the sandbagging was blatant and pitiful. Granted, I made it easy for them to throw the games by running out (with one real tough run out involving 3 banks, with 1 severely off angle long rail bank to the corner on the 8 ball for the win - I was pleased with that punch, Brumback would have been proud). Anyway, in every game that they played me, it the outcome of the round had already been decided. In two of the games, they missed balls badly and obviously this was intended.

If you are going to sandbag, i.e. cheat, please at least try to make it appear that you are trying! I refuse to sandbag, and never will. Pool is just a game, and it should be fun to play, not something that one feels compelled to cheat at. Sorry for the rant. I just think that it is poor form, that's all.

Carry on as usual and happy Friday to all...
 
Doesn't sound like cheating if there is money involved. I would call it a strategy. To win a major amateur tournament, you usually need 2 players on a team that are under handicapped to win the big money.

In Tap league I see the same teams there at the end getting the money and funny how their handicaps are the same as they were 10 years ago. They use a strategy, they would never let anyone cheat in Tap league. LOL

And because I voice the truth and opinions, my handicap is a 7 and will always be a 7 no matter how I play.:smile:
 
So 100% positive they were sandbagging?
Not even a tiny chance they just played bad that day?
Because sometimes choking looks an awful lot like sandbagging.

Whip out the cell phone and start recording.
 
justadub said:
Because in most leagues, sandbagging is against the rules.
Click to expand...

Is it? How can it be?

If they create the handicapping system, what's wrong with using THEIR system to win?

I know it's lowlife behavior and those guys will never amount much as far as being good shooters, but it is within the rules. Why not just change the rules so there's no/little advantage in sandbagging?

rhetorical questions...you don't have to answer.

Jeff Livingston
 
For real...if you are a real good known player that runs out a lot, the only chance for someone to win is to miss early, then hope to get a shot later when there is an open table.

Some players will miss because they already know they don't have a chance. They shoot scared.


Since you run out all those racks...sounds like it was a strategy after all and there was no cheating.
 
chefjeff said:
Is it? How can it be?

If they create the handicapping system, what's wrong with using THEIR system to win?

I know it's lowlife behavior and those guys will never amount much as far as being good shooters, but it is within the rules. Why not just change the rules so there's no/little advantage in sandbagging?

rhetorical questions...you don't have to answer.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

To clarify, this is a BCA sanctioned league. It is against the rules. I'm actually shocked that some of you guys defend this as a legitimate strategy to "win" (and this is not winning by the way, winning is when you play your best and chalk up more games then the next guy). By this logic, a politician might as well just use voter fraud to "win" an election. I suppose that you are for athletes juicing as well.

I guess I have just been naive. I'll change my behavior going forward. I'll now sandbag, shark, etc. Hell, when I gamble, I think that when my opponent goes to take a break, I'll just rearrange the balls just a little bit in order to better my chances to "win".

Thanks for the advice guys. I now know how to play better pool.

Cheers...
 
CreeDo said:
So 100% positive they were sandbagging?
Not even a tiny chance they just played bad that day?
Because sometimes choking looks an awful lot like sandbagging.

Whip out the cell phone and start recording.
Click to expand...

Nah, not 100% positive, only 99%. I've played with damn near everyone in the area at one time or another. I have played with members of this team as well and heard the captain instruct them to sandbag, which they did with glee.

Captains know better than to ask me to do it though. That's one of the reasons I play with this new team. They enjoy pool for the game that it is. "Losing" has never been such fun.
 
Their not cheating , they just don't want to knock their action....

Not showing thier true speed....

Want a better spot....

Trying to get the nuts for next time....



Wait, was this a league thread or a pool thread?

:)
 
Let me just make sure I understand you chefjeff and poolguy4u are you making the suggestion that sandbagging (playing to less than your ability so that you manipulate your handicap so that it is lower than it would be if you didn’t so that you can increase your chances of winning a given match) is NOT cheating? I just want to be sure I understand completely.
 
What I have found in league play, especially 8 ball is players that play lights out when they have no pressure on them. And play like a monkey when they've got someone running out on them or they're not getting rolls. This lowers their skill level. But these players are so erratic that they play poorly for qualifiers. On the other hand, people who play with loosely and gab when they play seem to respond better. Of course, I'm talking about the lower skill level players here.

At any rate, if you're sandbagging, you're losing points and you'll forget how to compete. Higher sl players can do this but not bangers.

"Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." ---Casey Kasem
 
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chefjeff said:
If what they did was within the rules, how it that cheating?

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

chefjeff said:
Is it? How can it be?

If they create the handicapping system, what's wrong with using THEIR system to win?

I know it's lowlife behavior and those guys will never amount much as far as being good shooters, but it is within the rules. Why not just change the rules so there's no/little advantage in sandbagging?

rhetorical questions...you don't have to answer.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...


lol...

I just got red-repped (I think my first one is over 24,000 posts!)...

...FOR MERELY ASKING QUESTIONS.

:scratchhead:


Jeff Livingston
 
PGHteacher said:
Let me just make sure I understand you chefjeff and poolguy4u are you making the suggestion that sandbagging (playing to less than your ability so that you manipulate your handicap so that it is lower than it would be if you didn’t so that you can increase your chances of winning a given match) is NOT cheating? I just want to be sure I understand completely.
Click to expand...

I asked, if it is within the rules then how can it be cheating?

Someone here said it is against the rules*, so that would make it cheating.

Jeff Livingston

* How is it stated, how is it enforced?
 
Sandbagging is a way of life for some teams even entire cities.
I don't sandbag however, last year at the beginning of a newly formed BCA team I was out of town, and my "co-captain" asked measureman
to miss a few shots or something...:nono::shrug::mad::thumbup2:

:nono: =big mistake, Bruce even started a thread about it

:shrug: =I was 1200 miles away and out of the room when it happened

:mad:=Bruce was really ****ing mad

:thumbup2:=I shmoozed it over when I got back into town
 
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jalapus logan said:
Nah, not 100% positive, only 99%. I've played with damn near everyone in the area at one time or another. I have played with members of this team as well and heard the captain instruct them to sandbag, which they did with glee.

Captains know better than to ask me to do it though. That's one of the reasons I play with this new team. They enjoy pool for the game that it is. "Losing" has never been such fun.
Click to expand...

Well, I would seriously look at the recording thing then (probably not legal but I can't imagine anyone's gonna jump up and sue you. Maybe I'm wrong).

Capture some blatant misses, or even the coach instructing them to pad their innings.
Then show it to the league operator.

The reason I ask if you're really sure... we've had two false complaints filed against teams I'm on. In one case it was an inexperienced player who had no sense of where skill levels are supposed to be, they don't realize that in our league, a SL3 can run 4 or 5 balls sometimes.

In another case it was just a sore loser, he wrote a note to the LO saying stuff like... "this guy was running rack after rack with ease in practice, laughing the whole time, then he missed 4 times in a row vs. me!"... it was loaded with exaggerations like that, my teammate didn't run a single rack that night, and he was trying to win. Nonetheless he got bumped up the next week.

My experience has been that few people truly sandbag. A lot of sandbagging claims are sour grapes from the person losing. They see a low rank player make a nice shot... and forget that 1 out of 10 times, a bad player can make a good shot. Or a good player can get a case of the dogs and start missing hangers.

I've even heard people admit it, saying "yeah I couldn't crush them, so I eased up on purpose to avoid going up"... but I strongly suspect the person is just ashamed to admit they started choking up at the end and had trouble sealing the deal. Rather than admit to missing an easy one, they'll just act like they did it on purpose.

I've never heard of anyone trying to record sandbagging, but it seems to me it's the most logical way to prove it. With a good smartphone, you can pull it off without being too obvious. Or, hell, make it obvious and see if the guy continues to miss when he knows he's being watched.
 
chefjeff said:
I asked, if it is within the rules then how can it be cheating?

Someone here said it is against the rules*, so that would make it cheating.

Jeff Livingston

* How is it stated, how is it enforced?
Click to expand...

The answer is, as I stated before, sandbagging is against the rules, as written in the rule book (at least in the APA rulebook.... I'm sure it is written similarly for other leagues.)

It is manipulating the system for unfair advantage, and it is poor sportsmanship.

As for enforcement, that is a whole other issue, which is why it gets so much action here on AZB.

But the answer is yes, its against the rules.
 
CreeDo said:
Well, I would seriously look at the recording thing then (probably not legal but I can't imagine anyone's gonna jump up and sue you. Maybe I'm wrong).

Capture some blatant misses, or even the coach instructing them to pad their innings.
Then show it to the league operator.

The reason I ask if you're really sure... we've had two false complaints filed against teams I'm on. In one case it was an inexperienced player who had no sense of where skill levels are supposed to be, they don't realize that in our league, a SL3 can run 4 or 5 balls sometimes.

In another case it was just a sore loser, he wrote a note to the LO saying stuff like... "this guy was running rack after rack with ease in practice, laughing the whole time, then he missed 4 times in a row vs. me!"... it was loaded with exaggerations like that, my teammate didn't run a single rack that night, and he was trying to win. Nonetheless he got bumped up the next week.

My experience has been that few people truly sandbag. A lot of sandbagging claims are sour grapes from the person losing. They see a low rank player make a nice shot... and forget that 1 out of 10 times, a bad player can make a good shot. Or a good player can get a case of the dogs and start missing hangers.

I've even heard people admit it, saying "yeah I couldn't crush them, so I eased up on purpose to avoid going up"... but I strongly suspect the person is just ashamed to admit they started choking up at the end and had trouble sealing the deal. Rather than admit to missing an easy one, they'll just act like they did it on purpose.

I've never heard of anyone trying to record sandbagging, but it seems to me it's the most logical way to prove it. With a good smartphone, you can pull it off without being too obvious. Or, hell, make it obvious and see if the guy continues to miss when he knows he's being watched.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your thoughts. However, I have not and will not mention any of this to league operators. Hell, at least half of these guys are buddies of mine anyway, despite their lax interperetations of rules and ethics.

I guess that the reason I brought this up for the umpteenth time on here is that I feel that the problem is cultural and that the only way to correct it is via civil discussion. Like others have mentioned, the problem is widespread and, imo, possibly systemic. The truth is that in this league, and all leagues that I have played in, sandbagging is expected. I think that if people just realize that pool is just a game. Nothing more. No need to write volumes here, just have folks remember that playing your best is the pinnacle of pool achievement, whether the W is chalked up on your side or your opponents.

In fact, one of my best pool experiences was trying as hard as possible to beat AZB's own John Brumback. I got some racks in, but I think you all know how the tale of the tape read in the end. But, man, was it fun. And that kind of fun can't be had by cheating and scheming.

Note: 5 o'clock can't get here fast enough...
 
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