APA Vegas is a joke

[Scott Lee]

one stroke...Terry Justice was paying more than $100K in the session-end and year-end tournaments as far back as at least 1991. He was the biggest APA LO back then (MD). There are a lot of big operators now, across the country, that do the same thing. If you play in the "largest APA area in the country", then it has to be either Terry or Lee.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

,, I have played APA on and off 20 yrs have 420 matches in and play in the largest APA area in the country and one owed by a personal friend of mine they did not start paying any money for reginals untill my 3rd year in and it was pennies at best and if you know so much you would know that the 8ball teams do not pay for games but the masters does and by all means show me a leaque operater paying out 100k

1

 

[MahnaMahna]

Scott, in your opinion, why are there so many complaints about the APA? Seems like players complain less about BCA?

 

[stix_n_stones]

one stroke...Do you realize that ALL the national tournaments (BCAPL, ACS, VNEA, APA), whether they are played on Valley or Diamond tables, are set up a $1 a game?

Off topic but just FYI for the last three years or so the VNEA has all tables open at the Vegas tournament. A flat rate green fee of $35 is paid for each event entered. This is a great system IMO. No hunting for change, unlimited practice time and it promotes action by making cheap sets worthwhile. A great system I think all leagues should adopt.

 

[Scott Lee]

stix_n_stones...I stand corrected. I do recall that VNEA went to flat rate pricing a while back. However, the tables were a dollar for a long time prior to that, which was one of the reasons they went to flat rate pricing. The OP was insinuating that paying $1 a game was somehow something new...which it is certainly not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Off topic but just FYI for the last three years or so the VNEA has all tables open at the Vegas tournament. A flat rate green fee of $35 is paid for each event entered. This is a great system IMO. No hunting for change, unlimited practice time and it promotes action by making cheap sets worthwhile. A great system I think all leagues should adopt.

 

[Scott Lee]

Lyn...I do remember that, and I think that might have led to what stix_n_stones said about VNEA going to flat rate pricing for everybody.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Do you remember when the VNEA tried to raise the tables to $1.25? Didn't last long. Someone figured out the tokens sold at Slots-O-Fun worked just fine in the Valley tables. They were a lot less. Change machines were revised quickly back to five for five dollars!

Lyn

 

[Gregmc]

Well I enjoyed the APA nationals, this year was my second time going my only complaint concerning the tables were I thought they were slow. The APA is a travel league in my area and I get to play on numerous types of equipment some better than others, I did notice in the matches my team played in the slow rollers were having trouble with table drift but those shooting the ball pocket speed seem to fair better. I was able to take my wife this time and it only cost me 300$ plus I won $1200 in the casino
I love the APA in fact just finished the 1st rounds of play offs winning in both 8 and 9 ball trying to get back I love a free vacation and I won't blame the tables for my success or failure.

 

[one stroke]

one stroke...Terry Justice was paying more than $100K in the session-end and year-end tournaments as far back as at least 1991. He was the biggest APA LO back then (MD). There are a lot of big operators now, across the country, that do the same thing. If you play in the "largest APA area in the country", then it has to be either Terry or Lee.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

No not true. Terry and mark jordan were partners before they split we played on mark jordans side infact with I think terrys mother out of phils bar and grill witch was the largest league in the state. We were going to go in house with our 24 teames and get now owner Lee tiani to do the computer stuff word got out and they gave lee the dart divisison their were only singles and 8 ball at the time no other events at that time so I find it har to believe they were paying out that kinda cash

However I know its probaly close or over that now after some number crunches

9

 

[Scott Lee]

one stroke...Not surprising you'd find it "hard to believe". Doesn't make you any less incorrect. When I attended my first APA LO national meeting, Terry gave a speech (with handouts), on exactly what he paid, and how he paid it. This was in 1991...TWENTY-ONE years ago. It was over $100K then, and I'm pretty sure it still is, even though he has sold off parts of his franchise area. BTW, do you know how to use punctuation, so that others might be able to read your posts?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

No not true. Terry and mark jordan were partners before they split we played on mark jordans side infact with I think terrys mother out of phils bar and grill witch was the largest league in the state. We were going to go in house with our 24 teames and get now owner Lee tiani to do the computer stuff word got out and they gave lee the dart divisison their were only singles and 8 ball at the time no other events at that time so I find it har to believe they were paying out that kinda cash

However I know its probaly close or over that now after some number crunches

9

 

[one stroke]

one stroke...Not surprising you'd find it "hard to believe". Doesn't make you any less incorrect. When I attended my first APA LO national meeting, Terry gave a speech (with handouts), on exactly what he paid, and how he paid it. This was in 1991...TWENTY-ONE years ago. It was over $100K then, and I'm pretty sure it still is, even though he has sold off parts of his franchise area. BTW, do you know how to use punctuation, so that others might be able to read your posts?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I would have to see that before I believe it maybe his out of pocket expences were that high but not cash payouts. But realy its irrelivent in this conversation that's about bad tables at a high level turny you pay too play in
End of subject

Maybe you should add grammer to what you try.... To teach
Have a wonderfull day

1

 

[cubc]

I was out in vegas with our masters team and to those people saying "they played on the same equipment too" as if you just got outplayed instead of phuct by equipment then you're just being stupid. It's not like they have the exact same run outs as you and the same shots and same situations. They may not encounter the same rail cut that you had or have control of the table when playing a safe that rolls out 4 inches from it's intended destination and on bar boxes with big pockets it can be brutal.

That being said I did a rail cut from the foot rail with speed to come up center table on my next shot because it was the highest run out percentage and it ran the rail perfectly then at the corner rolled up above the pocket (as big as the corner pockets were) well above the point and I didn't hit it too slow. However.. Jeff Abernathy who's a far more seasoned player in different conditions than I said when playing on these tables you can't use patterns like normal and he told me what I should've done just for these tables out here to help prevent those situations including that one.

Unfortunately the guy won that game and broke and ran 3 and I didn't get another chance. Then our next team member who is also very good got wrecked by the same table and we lost. But Vegas got really fun after that so it's definitely worth it imo and it was the first time ever playing on such a horrible bar table with cougar balls and I'll keep in mind the things Jeff told me for next year. Like Gunzby we're from the same area. We're used to 9' and then diamond bar boxes for cities, not this cougar valley crap.

TL: DR
The tables and balls are crap, just because people play on the same table doesn't mean they get the same situational shots to encounter the same weird rolls, and there are better ways to help mitigate the terrible rolls that are much different patterns than on a 9'. We still had a blast afterwards.

P.S. Steve Lomax and Joe Blackburn do great work on leather wraps!

 

[bn4625]

I would have to see that before I believe it maybe his out of pocket expences were that high but not cash payouts. But realy its irrelivent in this conversation that's about bad tables at a high level turny you pay too play in
End of subject

Maybe you should add grammer to what you try.... To teach
Have a wonderfull day

1

I agree that the tables were pretty bad. I didn't play but my wife was on an 8 ball team and played in some minis that I watched along with watching some other local teams and I saw plenty of bad roles and dead rails.

The Riviera just needs to close. The place is a dump it is almost depressing just being in there. They also charge you more if you use the APA rate how nice of them. Leaky roof they had to close the mini room for hours. The only reason to stay there is convenience. We got moved to the Springhill Suites the first two nights probably should have just stayed there. Rumor has it they over booked by 600 rooms.

Here are Terry's payouts. For making it to Vegas each team gets $5000 which is just about enough to cover your airfare and room.
http://apapool.com/custompages/custom_pages.asp?Page_ID=16

 

[cubc]

We got 4700 / 4 so 1175 each. For airfare direct (no layovers which cost about 125 extra) both ways and hotel from Saturday - Friday came to 703.00 which left 472.00 extra. Not bad for 180.00 investment regardless of how bad the tables were or if the roof fell in from rain (which was hilarious) .

 

[uwate]

Cubc can you elaborate on what different patterns abernathy said to use on the bartables?

 

[Scott Lee]

one stroke...Then why did you bring it up? Hopefully now, since you've SEEN it (thank you to bn4625 for the link) , you'll just admit that you were wrong about Terry's payouts and be done with it. BTW, I mentioned punctuation, not grammar. Lots of posters here make comments about runon posts with no breaks, that are hard to read. You fixed yours. Thank you.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I would have to see that before I believe it maybe his out of pocket expences were that high but not cash payouts. But realy its irrelivent in this conversation that's about bad tables at a high level turny you pay too play in
End of subject

1

 

[Scott Lee]

Thanks for the link. I knew Terry's payouts were high, even 20 years ago. Nice to see them keeping pace with inflation and recessions in the economy. $500,000 locally is a pretty strong payback number!

On topic, the Riv is a dump, and hopefully will be razed before too long. Also on topic...if you want to b!tch about the tables, at least b!tch to the right people (hint: it isn't the APA).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Here are Terry's payouts. For making it to Vegas each team gets $5000 which is just about enough to cover your airfare and room.
http://apapool.com/custompages/custom_pages.asp?Page_ID=16

 

[cubc]

Cubc can you elaborate on what different patterns abernathy said to use on the bartables?

Yea he took the pattern that I used that would work fine on a normal table and showed me an alternate pattern that would basically change the angles down to 10 degree cuts so I could fire a ball in at such a speed there's really no chance for it to roll off. And on a slight back cut I had that I made, but almost missed from a roll off instead of back cutting it to hold shape, hit it hard and come off the side rail back to middle.

He was saying to basically hit everything hard. If you get steeper angle don't cut it naturally, cut the hell out of it and send the cue ball all the way up and back down instead of 1 rail which really isn't difficult to do anyway.. and even less difficult to do on a bar table than a 9. Talked about natural shape where if you're cutting a ball near the side pocket and send the cue ball around 3 rails like a normal table with top right.. don't do that here. The rails and the cue ball will not respond accordingly. Better off stunning hard and going up and back down. Things like that. Just a perspective shift on patterns.

It was early on when this happened and I did fine afterwards in minis and gambling but they were terrible tables and while it was still fun I felt I had to let go of what I think I know on a normal table and just play differently. There were no touch safes, speed kicks, or slow rolls after that. If I had to split a ball on the foot rail I'd kill the cue ball with bottom english so it wore off just before it hit the object ball to still have enough speed to roll off less and hopefully get a decent safe out of it.

It's just different and Jeff knew how to adjust faster and better than we did so at least that's just a little more experience gained from being out there. His 8 ball patterns he would hit them a lot harder and use opponent's balls to stop the cue ball instead of speed control. He had a very different game out there than here on normal tables, but much like here, he still won pretty consistently. He didn't win as much as usual as even he fell victim to some bs rolls and lost to people who wouldn't have a prayer on a real table, but he handled those tables and rolls much better than we did overall so I was paying attention for sure.

I always seem to type a lot... anyway that's the gist of it.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I was out in vegas with our masters team and to those people saying "they played on the same equipment too" as if you just got outplayed instead of phuct by equipment then you're just being stupid. It's not like they have the exact same run outs as you and the same shots and same situations. They may not encounter the same rail cut that you had or have control of the table when playing a safe that rolls out 4 inches from it's intended destination and on bar boxes with big pockets it can be brutal.

That being said I did a rail cut from the foot rail with speed to come up center table on my next shot because it was the highest run out percentage and it ran the rail perfectly then at the corner rolled up above the pocket (as big as the corner pockets were) well above the point and I didn't hit it too slow. However.. Jeff Abernathy who's a far more seasoned player in different conditions than I said when playing on these tables you can't use patterns like normal and he told me what I should've done just for these tables out here to help prevent those situations including that one.

Unfortunately the guy won that game and broke and ran 3 and I didn't get another chance. Then our next team member who is also very good got wrecked by the same table and we lost. But Vegas got really fun after that so it's definitely worth it imo and it was the first time ever playing on such a horrible bar table with cougar balls and I'll keep in mind the things Jeff told me for next year. Like Gunzby we're from the same area. We're used to 9' and then diamond bar boxes for cities, not this cougar valley crap.

TL: DR
The tables and balls are crap, just because people play on the same table doesn't mean they get the same situational shots to encounter the same weird rolls, and there are better ways to help mitigate the terrible rolls that are much different patterns than on a 9'. We still had a blast afterwards.

P.S. Steve Lomax and Joe Blackburn do great work on leather wraps!

I sure the guy that ran 3 tables would agree that the equipment beat you and his ability had absolutely nothing to do with it

 

[Celophanewrap]

I never blamed the equipment for the reason for me losing the set. The guy played fine. But I would've at least won that game and who knows from the next break. It did change things so don't be an asshole. I was just saying that while the equipment is terrible that I learned there are better or at least different ways to handle it. So many *****s like you here on this forum, but in real life people sure are a lot nicer. I didn't run into any charming people like you in Vegas in any matches, but it's easy to find them here on azbilliards.

Well apparently you wouldn't have won that game, you don't know, we'll never know, you might have missed the next shot or tanked the 8 ball, or miscued, seems to me that if you were supposed to win you would have. Did it change things? Maybe, maybe not, guess we'll never know. Had you whined to your opponent I'm sure you'd have found a whole team of charming people just waiting to discuss that with you.
If I'da played on 9 foot GC's or Diamonds..., if the sun wasn't in my eyes..., if it hadn't snowed..., if I remembered my lucky shirt...,
and the classic - If my grandma had balls...
C'mon, your guy ran 3 tables on that same equipment, maybe he just played better and you lost? or was he a banger that kept shitting in balls? It's nothing to be ashamed of, it happens to all of us. I'll be you're a lot of fun, but as much as I love to play pool, I've never been around a bigger group of whining babies and the thing is, the better you guys are, the more you guys whine.
But in all seriousness, I'd have to agree about at least some of the equipment, but some of the tables I played on weren't so awful. I lost a match to a guy that was on fire, that table wasn't great, but he played on that same table and he just beat the snot out of me, I had to give it up to him, not the equipment, and afterwards I apologized for not giving him a better match.
I must also apologize to you. I needed a good laugh so I said what I thought might get you going, sorry for that, but I did laugh a little.
and you're right - it is easy to fin those people here on AZB, both you and I think we've found one

 

[one stroke]

one stroke...Then why did you bring it up? Hopefully now, since you've SEEN it (thank you to bn4625 for the link) , you'll just admit that you were wrong about Terry's payouts and be done with it. BTW, I mentioned punctuation, not grammar. Lots of posters here make comments about runon posts with no breaks, that are hard to read. You fixed yours. Thank you.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott I did not bring up the payouts I responded to someone elses posts,,
never the less agian when I started there was only 8 ball teams and singles
Im pretty sure Mark Jordan and Terry's leagues were combined for the vegas slots, I know for a fact the singles were ,now that is not the case ,,
Terry has more teams now then when they were combined and the fee is double ,, so yes as I said before I stand corrected on now payouts,,
But I dont ever care what the payouts are anyway I let the guys capable of winning worry about that ,,I dont play APA and basicly play for fun in Pro Am's cashing once in a blue moon like the APT's last tour stop just got my money back

My statements witch some refer to as complaints are observations no more no less,, and they have been backed up many times in this thread
if Im quilty of anything it was my expatations where to high if I had been there before I would have know what to expect

On a side note whats funny at this point is I was going to call you for a crash course because I saw you were coming this way but my Uncle had a stroke and passed that week so I did not have the time


1

 

[Bugz]

The tables have been worse in the past. It took me some time to adjust just but I got there. The guys from my area also seemed to adjust after a little bit, and we all come from Diamond tables during league play.

I think some people's expectations were too high, and I know how that goes because I was the same way in 2009 for my first trip. Then tends to make the equipment seem even worse then what it really is. Alot of tables had new cloth, new balls, and a new cueball.

Now, if someone wants to start a thread about teh Riveria being trash and boycotting that shit hole. I'm all for that. I pray that this was the last year that tournament is ever held there.

Roof dripping water into the mini room, 2 Bartenders tending bar at night, 1 cocktail waitress, not enough dealers to open all of the gaming tables, over booking the hotel, Riv employees with attitude problems. It was a circus this year, I guess they forgot there would be over 5,000 people there and not all of them would be palying pool at the same time. I know one thing, I won't spend another night in that dump.