Pool Tournaments - Capitalism or Socialism???

[CJ Wiley]

PROFESSIONAL Pool Tournaments - Capitalism or Socialism???

The reason this hits so close to home for me is "The PROFESSIONAL Pool World" seems to have strayed away from a capitalistic path through "tricky equipment, changing rules to create more "luck", therefore limiting skill, and creating handicap systems to "equalize everyone", and if you look at professional pool's steady decline the last 12 years will you agree (?) that socialistic structure is a recipe for failure even in the example of a "Game"?....Can it be that trying to "make things fair" and "treating everyone the same" has actually led to, at least temperately, the demise of Pool? Is it too late to make the game challenging again, so the true cream of the crop can Dominate the Game?

In This Example - A professor uses grades, but Substitute Money for Grades to understand the following example of a socialist system in place at a school:

All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the
same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A....
(substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling (this never happens in the "Pool World" LoL) all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Was the reward taken away from the top pool players many years ago? Did establishing One Foul Rules, Trick Equipment, Faster Cloth, Heavier Cue Balls, Shorter Races, Lower First Place Prize Money, result in the decline in pool? After giving this some thought I can relate to the frustration and disgruntlement of the current Top Billiard Professionals! :frown: The Battle Cry of Socialism is: We Treat Everybody the Same! This, at first sounds logical and fair, but what result does it honestly get..Is it really good to have a different winner in every pro event?

 

[thekaiserman]

I disagree. there are no handycaps in professional pool only some amature events

 

[justadub]

Golf has had handicapping at many levels below professional play for years, and it certainly hasn't hurt that sport.

Bowling, too.

Why does it have to hurt pool? Because the top level players, and promoters can't put together a product that will attract sponsors to create a real pro tournament and tour structure?

I wish pool was more successful at the top level of play, too. But to blame it on handicapped tourneys and leagues seems a reach. At least to me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's not about recreational pool

I disagree. there are no handycaps in professional pool only some amature events

That's true, the handicap I mentioned for the professionals are all the equipment equalizers and the rules that take away a big part of the skill....ie: One Foul as opposed to Two Foul (Roll out)....

The handicaps are in the amateur levels and sometime keep players from improving.....not all (of course), but some players like the fact that they're rated at a "4" when they should be a "6"....and I'm not referring to any one rating system....but equalizing players at some levels isn't fair because the players with the highest handicaps haven't had to go though what it takes to play at a higher level..... recreationally it makes no difference in Golf, Bowling, and/or Pool...I realize this and this is separate from the point of professional pool.....I ONLY have an interest in Professional pool, I doubt if I would be welcome in most amateur tournaments.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Golf has had handicapping at many levels below professional play for years, and it certainly hasn't hurt that sport.

Bowling, too.

Why does it have to hurt pool? Because the top level players, and promoters can't put together a product that will attract sponsors to create a real pro tournament and tour structure?

I wish pool was more successful at the top level of play, too. But to blame it on handicapped tourneys and leagues seems a reach. At least to me.

That's true and it doesn't apply at all to recreational leagues or tournaments....but there has been many changes in rules, equipment and format that have been a big equalizer at the top of professional pool....I've heard many times "we want to treat everyone the same".....so that we get more players in the tournaments....but at some point quality is better than quantity .... it's obvious in the PGA, NBA, NFL, etc.

 

[Underclocked]

Handicap systems often eliminate the real drive to excel. The pressure of playing a better player can stimulate that drive while handicaps tend to equalize and reduce the pressure. When you play King Kong, you had better try your best to outplay King Kong. If King Kong is reduced by handicap to a circus monkey, your need and your drive to excel is equally reduced.

And if you "win" what have you really accomplished?

Gambling is different and there are folks very good at matching up money vs talent, but competitive pool for the sake of the game should be played where the only thing leveled in advance is the table. Let the real cream rise to the top.

I guess that's why I used to spot guys 100 points on a snooker table... had to create King Kongs.

CJ, got any more of that Blue Diamond? I lost my last piece in Olathe. Just kidding, I have some.

 

[krupa]

I don't really see how the OP applies to pool.

Do you think that rule and equipment changes have lowered the overall quality of pool being played at the professional level? Doesn't the overall decline in the interest in pool affect this just as much? Fewer people playing at all levels means less competition, means less need to bring your game up that much higher. In other words, you don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy.

How do you measure the quality of a pool player? Given the variability in playing conditions (pocket size, cloth wear, ball conditions, humidity, etc.), is there an objective way to determine that?

Do you think this idea (that rule and equipment changes lower the overall quality) applies to equally to all games (9-ball vs. 14.1)?

-matthew

 

[justadub]

That's true and it doesn't apply at all to recreational leagues or tournaments....but there has been many changes in rules, equipment and format that have been a big equalizer at the top of professional pool....I've heard many times "we want to treat everyone the same".....so that we get more players in the tournaments....but at some point quality is better than quantity .... it's obvious in the PGA, NBA, NFL, etc.

I hear this "we want to treat everyone the same" complaint here quite regularly.

Handicapping, when done properly and not abused by the participants, does not make everyone the same. It simply gives the lesser player a better chance than they would have had without it. The better player is going to win more often than not, that's why he/she is the better player. This really applies to recreational leagues and lower level tourneys.

I think your original post/complaint would be better worded to be directed at higher level tourney's, and events that pro's could play in. And separate that from pool as a whole. Because there is a whole world of difference between those worlds, and to group in the recreational leagues into this argument will confuse the issue.

If there were a regulatory organization for professional pool here in the US, this wouldn't be an issue. But given the lack of one, and no common direction for high level play, you are going to get as many different viewpoints, opinions and expectations as there are participants.

IMHO, get some of the movers and shakers together, create a real governing body, and have them set the standards for high level pool...then you won't have the issues you mention in your original post. And I truly think that you, CJ, would be a good choice to be involved in such a governing body.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Politics of Pool

I hear this "we want to treat everyone the same" complaint here quite regularly.

Handicapping, when done properly and not abused by the participants, does not make everyone the same. It simply gives the lesser player a better chance than they would have had without it. The better player is going to win more often than not, that's why he/she is the better player. This really applies to recreational leagues and lower level tourneys.

I think your original post/complaint would be better worded to be directed at higher level tourney's, and events that pro's could play in. And separate that from pool as a whole. Because there is a whole world of difference between those worlds, and to group in the recreational leagues into this argument will confuse the issue.

If there were a regulatory organization for professional pool here in the US, this wouldn't be an issue. But given the lack of one, and no common direction for high level play, you are going to get as many different viewpoints, opinions and expectations as there are participants.

IMHO, get some of the movers and shakers together, create a real governing body, and have them set the standards for high level pool...then you won't have the issues you mention in your original post. And I truly think that you, CJ, would be a good choice to be involved in such a governing body.

I would consider doing that, but I have a different way...without politics
"Politics" was one of the main things that got me disenchanted with Professional Pool....it seemed like a majority of the promoters and the "governing bodies" wanted to "Equalize" the game.....make the table's pockets easier....allow specialty cues so people that couldn't jump well, or break well wouldn't be at a "disadvantage".....make the races shorter, loser breaks, and most of all NOT SEED THE PLAYERS...."are you fu**** kidding me???"...that means if Efren, Earl or Johnny is #1 and I'm #2 I can PLAY THEM FIRST ROUND....this isn't possible in Tennis .... I heard lately that the "Battle Cry of Socialism is We Treat Everyone the Same" .... this was illustrated by a King that was approached by another King to find out his secret to his Socialistic structure.....the King took him out to a huge field of corn and said "you must first cut ALL the corn down to the same height and NEVER let any grow higher that the rest again!"...."if any of the corn starts growing too fast you must immediately cut it down to the other's height".......My first thought was O>M>G> this is exactly what I saw happening in Pool in the late 90's (and is very apparent today).....I hope AMERICA learns from professional pool....Socialism is doomed to fail...now if we can figure out a way to bring the "free market capitalism" back to professional pool we'll be "off to the races again" ;-) AMEN

 

[Scott Lee]

Sorry to burst your bubble CJ, but the 'cream of the crop' (read: best players) are dominating the game. They just, unfortunately, don't happen to be Americans...with the exception of Shane. The reasons for that could fill a book, but justadub touched on several of them.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Is it too late to make the game challenging again, so the true cream of the crop can Dominate the Game?

 

[cardiac kid]

The reason this hits so close to home for me is "The PROFESSIONAL Pool World" seems to have strayed away from a capitalistic path through "tricky equipment, changing rules to create more "luck", therefore limiting skill, and creating handicap systems to "equalize everyone", and if you look at professional pool's steady decline the last 12 years will you agree (?) that socialistic structure is a recipe for failure even in the example of a "Game"?....Can it be that trying to "make things fair" and "treating everyone the same" has actually led to, at least temperately, the demise of Pool? Is it too late to make the game challenging again, so the true cream of the crop can Dominate the Game?

CJ,

What "tricky equipment" are you referring to? Magic Rack? Sardo Rack? Diamond Tables? Measle Cue Ball? Simonis 860 cloth? Jump cues?

Would the following be among the rules you are referring to? Corey Deuel's soft break? Pattern racking? Break from the box? Driving multiple balls past the center stripe? "Texas" express rules? Rack your own?

Not trying to argue. Just want a better understanding of your comments. Not a professional by any stretch. Over the last few years, I've basically given up playing big table, big name events. Pretty much stick to bar boxes. And in my view, where the pool money really is today. Unfortunately!

Lyn

 

[lfigueroa]

...and most of all NOT SEED THE PLAYERS...."are you fu**** kidding me???"...that means if Efren, Earl or Johnny is #1 and I'm #2 I can PLAY THEM FIRST ROUND....this isn't possible in Tennis ....

Pool is not tennis. Pool does not even have a defined cadre of "professionals." And what reliable seeding mechanism amongst the pros exists that they wouldn't squabble about?

At every level pool tournaments are populated and supported by amateurs -- and they deserve a fair shake. If they can draw an Efren, Earl, or Johnny (or Darren their first round, so should you. Your $500 entry fee should not garner preferential consideration that my $500 entry fee does not.

If the day ever comes that you can pull off a US Open, or a big event the size of the DCC, with nothing but pro players, then I say: knock yourself out and seed to your heart's content. But in today's world you and I both know that's not possible and without big prize money never will. And BTW: you're very lucky JB isn't around anymore or he'd cudgel you to death on the jump cue argument

Lou Figueroa

 

[macguy]

That's true, the handicap I mentioned for the professionals are all the equipment equalizers and the rules that take away a big part of the skill....ie: One Foul as opposed to Two Foul (Roll out)....

The handicaps are in the amateur levels and sometime keep players from improving.....not all (of course), but some players like the fact that they're rated at a "4" when they should be a "6"....and I'm not referring to any one rating system....but equalizing players at some levels isn't fair because the players with the highest handicaps haven't had to go though what it takes to play at a higher level..... recreationally it makes no difference in Golf, Bowling, and/or Pool...I realize this and this is separate from the point of professional pool.....I ONLY have an interest in Professional pool, I doubt if I would be welcome in most amateur tournaments.

I disagree about one and two foul. I don't care for BIH but being able to push out every time you make a mistake is just a "Get out of jail free card" for a bad shot. Or someone plays a good safe and you just push out. It eliminates the need to come with a great shot, why take a risk when you can just push. As someone who grew up playing push out it was really a terrible way to play. Pool does need a better set of rules for 9-ball such as, you can't win on the break, no hill hill games, you must win by two and so on.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Socialism and the handicapping of sporting events are not related. Sometimes the outcome of an handicapped event may appear to resemble the desire to satisfy the mantra, "each according to their needs; each acoording to their ability to pay", but such is not the case, and we certainly don't need to walk around our local pool rooms carrying signs that read, "Pool Players of the World Unite."
Handicapps are simply a way to level the playing field. :smile:

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool is not tennis. Pool does not even have a defined cadre of "professionals." And what reliable seeding mechanism amongst the pros exists that they wouldn't squabble about?

At every level pool tournaments are populated and supported by amateurs -- and they deserve a fair shake. If they can draw an Efren, Earl, or Johnny (or Darren their first round, so should you. Your $500 entry fee should not garner preferential consideration that my $500 entry fee does not.

If the day ever comes that you can pull off a US Open, or a big event the size of the DCC, with nothing but pro players, then I say: knock yourself out and seed to your heart's content. But in today's world you and I both know that's not possible and without big prize money never will. And BTW: you're very lucky JB isn't around anymore or he'd cudgel you to death on the jump cue argument


Lou Figueroa

Yes, that's my point, there's no real professionals these days...however, that's not always been the case.....it's popular belief that it's because of a great effort to keep the best of the best down....through all these equipment equalizers, shorter races and rules that encourage luck and unexciting play.... I'm pretty sure it's true after listening to MANY top pros.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yes, that's my point, there's no real professionals these days...however, that's not always been the case.....it's popular belief that it's because of a great effort to keep the best of the best down....through all these equipment equalizers, shorter races and rules that encourage luck and unexciting play.... I'm pretty sure it's true after listening to MANY top pros.

There is no true cadre of professional pool players because there is no big money to compete for. In the absence of $$$ the answer has been to get more amateurs involved in the limited viable competitions currently being conducted. If it weren't for the amateurs the Pro Pool Player Retirement Fund (the entry fees sent in by amateurs to bulk up prize monies) would be considerably reduced. So be nice to the amateurs -- just say, "No!" to seeding ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

Handicap systems often eliminate the real drive to excel. The pressure of playing a better player can stimulate that drive while handicaps tend to equalize and reduce the pressure. When you play King Kong, you had better try your best to outplay King Kong. If King Kong is reduced by handicap to a circus monkey, your need and your drive to excel is equally reduced.

And if you "win" what have you really accomplished?

Gambling is different and there are folks very good at matching up money vs talent, but competitive pool for the sake of the game should be played where the only thing leveled in advance is the table. Let the real cream rise to the top.

I guess that's why I used to spot guys 100 points on a snooker table... had to create King Kongs.

CJ, got any more of that Blue Diamond? I lost my last piece in Olathe. Just kidding, I have some.

The Cream must certainly be given a chance to rise to the top....AMEN!!!...hey, there, I'm down to my last couple of pieces of the Blue Diamond chalk....that box has lasted me a LONG time, and I've left many pieces in various places....are you coming down to the Texas State Championships? .... I'm getting ready to head there in a few minutes

 

[CJ Wiley]

Solution Mode

There is no true cadre of professional pool players because there is no big money to compete for. In the absence of $$$ the answer has been to get more amateurs involved in the limited viable competitions currently being conducted. If it weren't for the amateurs the Pro Pool Player Retirement Fund (the entry fees sent in by amateurs to bulk up prize monies) would be considerably reduced. So be nice to the amateurs -- just say, "No!" to seeding ;-)

Lou Figueroa

I'm very nice to amateurs, however, we'll have to agree to disagree about seeding....I give away free advice to several thousand a amateurs a day, and I do understand your points, it's a mute issue with the current condition of pool....it's just so sad to come back after 15 years and see it in such a poor condition ....we were not happy back then and we were doing many times better with just a fraction of the expenses.....I put a lot of time and money into it back in 96-98 and it was just the wrong time...and now it's cycled down SO FAR all I can see is upside....and as you'all know if we keep doing the same things we'll keep getting the same results....that's why I want to have these discussions because I can learn at an excellerated rate exactly what the root of the problems really are....then, I have a feeling the solutions will become apparent....imho

 

[jalapus logan]

CJ, I gotta love it that you're bringing some enthusiasm to the pool scene! Good luck Brother!

First, I would like to direct your attention to this thread that I started a couple of years ago about tougher equipment in order to solicit folks opinions as to its effects on the broader success of our sport. It got A LOT of attention and responses, with a lot of insight.

The absolute bottom line and holy grail to what you, and really all of us, are trying to achieve is to get more people interested in watching pro pool. Spectators and a legitimate fan base is the only thing that will create any monetary pool large enough to sustain pro pool, period. To that end, I don't necessarily think that having the "cream" rise to the top will have that great an effect. I have a feeling that the cream will rise to the top in the long run anyway.

What is really needed, IMO, is pro and aspiring pro players to engage in some good old fashioned self promotion and try a little outreach from time to time. Baseball is popular in no small part because damn near everyone played in little league. I did not hold my first pool cue until I was 18 (and when I fell in love with the game - i found out quickly that I was a BIG target - ha ha - the predatory nature of some kept me away for a while...). See the difference? We've got to get new players engaged with pro pool. Leagues are great to introduce new players, but they by and large don't watch pro pool. Why, because they have not heard of the players and have no one to root for. Here in basketball country, we have plenty of fans of that sport that have never held a ball or shot a free throw. Why? Because it is a social event and they have something in common to root for.

Have pros provide bios, keep stats, have them interact with spectators and that will be a start. All IMO, of course...

 

[jalapus logan]

There is no true cadre of professional pool players because there is no big money to compete for. In the absence of $$$ the answer has been to get more amateurs involved in the limited viable competitions currently being conducted. If it weren't for the amateurs the Pro Pool Player Retirement Fund (the entry fees sent in by amateurs to bulk up prize monies) would be considerably reduced. So be nice to the amateurs -- just say, "No!" to seeding ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Hate to point this out, but the pool players I know seem to think that a retirement fund is something that can be won at a craps table!

BTW, if one were to explore the link in my signature, one could glean more than a few ideas about future preparation.

Cheers mates,
JL